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Lemon Balm contains Harmine, could it activate DMT orally?

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Sabnock

Rising Star

Now, i've made some Changa using Lemon Balm and Acacia Confusa extract. The Lemon Balm for sure contains Harmine (as well as Eugenol which is said also to inhibit MAO-A), and comparing the resulting Changa to my last batch of Changa using Caapi leaves, i'd def. have to say that to me it seems the Harmine levels are similar/equal to or maybe even greater than, those in Caapi leaves.

I've put 100 grams worth of Mimosa onto 10 grams of Caapi leaf before, and after putting 100 grams of Acacia onto 12 grams of Lemon Balm, it's about the same potency i believe, if not a little more potent.

Which brings up the question, would Lemon Balm tea be a good oral DMT activator for Ayahuasca? It is a fact, that it will activate DMT orally due to the Harmine, the only question is how much Harmine is in the Lemon Balm?

I've mentioned this on another forum here recently and one said he'll give it a go when he get's the time, to see if Lemon Balm tea can indeed activate DMT orally. I myself, will also attempt it when i get the supplies and time needed.

If anyone else is up for some experimentation, by all means give it a try and please do report back :)
 
You're talking about Melissa officinalis, yes?

Would you mind explaining how you estimated the harmala content? If its just subjective effects from smoking changa, I'd say thats not really a reliable way assessing it.

The only publication around I can find that mentions that it has harmine is this from the journal of student research (no idea how good this journal is, hadnt heard of it before). The publication itself mentions nothing of quantification of Melissa's alkaloid content. The only other plant mentioned that is quantified in that publication only has like 11ppm (!!) of harmalas, which would be negligible in terms of psychoactive use. Also they had no mass spec or even UV spectra, they identified substance by comparing retention time and UV emission to standard, which is decent but by no means fail-proof.

Maybe it has harmine, maybe it doesnt? Maybe it has it but in insignificant quantities.. Maybe it varies a lot from specimen to specimen? Maybe it has in significant quantities, but maybe some of the other compounds in it might be unwanted? Or maybe it is good-to-go... Would have to do more tests on it.

You could try at least doing an a/b simple extraction like done with rue, see if anything precipitates.
 
I found this article that mentions in passing the MAOi activity of M. Officinalis (though not its harmala alkaloid content per se):

Herbal Natural Products as a Source of Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors: A review.

But not only Oriental Society has used herbs extract
showing MAO-A inhibitor properties for the treatment of
neuropsychiatric diseases. Therefore, Melissa officinalis L.
(Lamiaceae) has traditionally been used in all around the
world to prepare a tea for its sedative and spasmolytic ef-
fects; a great variety of phytopharmaceutical preparations
containing this plant are available in the market by its effects
on nervous system. Both methanolic and aqueous extracts
from the leaves inhibit MAO-A activity relieving depression
symptoms and might protect neurons from oxidative stress
although methanolic extract is more effective than the aque-
ous [26]
Click to expand...
 
This article you just mentioned uses as a source for the quoted info:

Neuroprotective and Neurological Properties of Melissa officinalis. Lopez et al 2009. Neurochem Res 34:1955–1961 (attaching to post)

Which once you look through, mentions Melissa officinalis' MAO-A activity IC50 is 20-50 ug/ml (for a 5g/600ml solvent extract), while this publication for caapi mentions caapi's MAO-A IC50 is 0.02–0.05 µg/mL (for a 50g-300ml water extract).

So working out the maths (Im bad at it, hopefully someone can double check), caapi's extract is 20 times more concentrated. But at the same time, considering IC50 is inversely correlated with inhibition strenght, so caapi's concentrated extract is 1000 times more potent than Melissa's not-so-concentrated extract. So dividing 1000/20, it means caapi is 50 times stronger MAO-A inhibitor than Melissa by dry weight.

This would mean that if in oral dosing, one needs 50g caapi, you'd need 2.5kg of Melissa officinalis for a single dosage. This begs the question of safety considering you'd be ingesting a lot of other compounds together.

As for MAO-A inhibition source in Melissa, the publication does NOT mention harmine, it says:
Lemon balm contains some flavonoids such as quercitrin as well as apigenin and luteolin derivatives that might inhibit monoamine oxidases as previous studies demon-
strated that a number of flavonoids possesed MAO-inhibitory activity
Click to expand...
 

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Thanks @endlessness for clearing that up, I'm not very well trained in reading publications like these. I guess lemon balm's status is back from potential magic potion to a pretty nice evening tea, then.

endlessness said:
As for MAO-A inhibition source in Melissa, the publication does NOT mention harmine, it says:
Lemon balm contains some flavonoids such as quercitrin as well as apigenin and luteolin derivatives that might inhibit monoamine oxidases as previous studies demon-
strated that a number of flavonoids possesed MAO-inhibitory activity
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I was aware of this & it was what I was trying to say with:
(though not its harmala alkaloid content per se)
Click to expand...
But my English is not very good :oops:
 
Very, very interesting. I need to be careful then.

Lately, I have been using Kratom extracts and was going to try out a Lemon-Balm,Lavender, and other herbs to make a headache tea. Maybe I should reconsider if I am taking kratom. I wouldn't want to have any bad reactions.

So is Lemon-Balm noticeably active when taken orally through means of a tea?
 
Very interesting stuff. Lemon balm also contains a compound which is a GABA transaminase inhibitor (kinda like an MAOI, but instead of preventing degradation of monoamines, it prevents the breaking down of GABA), which should help keep one calm during the experience.
 
Very interesting. I've tried to steam distil lemon balm from dry leaves and failed :?. I know that it has amazing properties when dealing with anxiety, which makes it a useful mild sleep aid as anxiety and sleep problems seem to walk hand in hand. It makes a tasty tea and kicks up the flavour of many herbal blends. Certainly like to look more into it’s MAOI abilities.


DeDao said:
Very, very interesting. I need to be careful then.

Lately, I have been using Kratom extracts and was going to try out a Lemon-Balm, Lavender, and other herbs to make a headache tea.
Click to expand...

Have you tried white willow bark? Fever few is also great for headaches! I don't know about interactions with kratom though.
 
Well, i really have no way of determining how much Harmine is in Lemon Balm, however last night i did make a tea from 10 grams of Lemon Balm, and felt what i label as a Harmine presence. I'm thinking if i had 25 to 50 grams of Lemon Balm it just might be enough to orally activate the DMT. I will try this out next month when i have my supplies, but i think it's worth it. But the tea tasted great, looked great and smelled great, if a strong Lemon Balm tea can indeed orally activate DMT, it will make for one tasty Ayahuasca brew.

And yeah when i used the Lemon Balm as a Changa base, i realize even the smallest amount of Harmalas can potentiate smoked DMT, however ime the less Harmalas you have, the less potentiation/the shorter the duration. When i smoked my Lemon Balm Changa, it was extended for atleast 30 to 45 minutes i'd say, compared to the 15 to 20 minute duration with the Caapi Changa.

So yeah, i realize subjective smoked accounts and only drinking the tea once isn't much, but it's a start, and it's enough to peak my curiosity. They do say though that the Lemon Balm leaf content varies depending on how fresh it is and when it's picked. I will be pursuing this experiment though as i do hold out hope that Lemon Balm can be used as an Ayahuasca-Analog, but in the meantime if anyone has a way to determine the Harmine content for sure, it would greatly be appreciated.

And i would try doing an extraction on it like with Rue/Caapi, but right now i'm out of Lemon Balm, next month i'm gonna try getting a pound of Lemon Balm as to make a strong, strong tea, take a few capsules of Mimosa powder and keep drinking the tea to see if it will indeed orally activate it. The rest of my pound will goto making some more Changa and possibly trying an extraction as well.
 
Do you have a source for this difference in fresh vs old plant claim? Would be interesting to read...

I'd definitely be interested in the experimentation results to see if it can orally activate DMT. I'm not sure what's the usual lemon balm ammounts used in culinary or medicinally, but I'd imagine 25g is still in the safe range (not an advice, as mentioned I'm not very familiar with this plant, please research before taking large amounts of any plant).

Regarding the extraction, a typical rue extraction would most definitely work to extract harmine but it would NOT work to extract flavonoids or other mentioned substances that account for MAO-A inhibition
 
Don't really have a source for the fresh vs. old claim, it's just what i've read on some of the sites i've went to about dosage information for the tea. Apparently the fresh leaves have more of a lemony scent and taste, and that the dried leaves lose most of it's lemony scent and taste. As for the actives i'm not sure if anything is lost in transition from fresh to dried, but if the scent and taste degrades there's a possibility some actives can degrade as well but i hope not.

And yeah, i'm not sure on the dose for medicinal use or culinary, but from what i saw while reading the tea dose was recommended at one to two teaspoons, lol obviously we want it much, much stronger though, and at 10 grams of Lemon Balm tea last night i'm very sure that i felt the Harmine, it felt very similar to the oncoming of Harmalas. And if it does indeed have Harmine in it, it very well should activate DMT orally, which i very much hope it does because that would be waaaaay awesome.

And yes i'm aware any flavonoids wouldn't come out in the extraction process like the Harmalas do, so hopefully that will make it easier on our part to extract Harmine if indeed it is there.

But i must say right off the bat, that Lemon Balm tea at 10 grams was pretty nice, and i did feel like it could be stronger and there'd be no complications. Of course, i did read a report somewhere yesterday that in high doses of say, the essential oil, that it can cause nausea and vomiting, so that could be another sign of Harmine present.
 
And also, while i do hope Lemon Balm can pull this off, even if it doesn't it would make a great tea combined with Caapi leaves (i'd imagine) and that could very well increase the potency enough to orally activate DMT. Ah the possibilities.
 
Vaast said:
Very interesting. I've tried to steam distil lemon balm from dry leaves and failed :?. I know that it has amazing properties when dealing with anxiety, which makes it a useful mild sleep aid as anxiety and sleep problems seem to walk hand in hand. It makes a tasty tea and kicks up the flavour of many herbal blends. Certainly like to look more into it’s MAOI abilities.


DeDao said:
Very, very interesting. I need to be careful then.

Lately, I have been using Kratom extracts and was going to try out a Lemon-Balm, Lavender, and other herbs to make a headache tea.
Click to expand...

Have you tried white willow bark? Fever few is also great for headaches! I don't know about interactions with kratom though.
Click to expand...

YES! Feverfew was the other herb. I have yet to try the tea yet though. Now I am even more hesitant to try it now reading that they are MAOIs.
 
So, just made Caapi leaf tea for the first time, and it tastes GOOOOOOOD :p

I love making herbal teas now, this is awesome :)

Which brings to my mind, the mixture of Lemon Balm and Caapi leaf, ah man i can't wait till i get more Lemon Balm (i already have plenty of Caapi leaf).
 
I have a huge lemon balm bush. I make tea with it, and I cook with like a handful of it often. I never felt anything similar to harmala effects.
 
Really? Maybe you aren't making it strong enough?

When i made my tea with 10 grams of dried Lemon Balm, i could positively ID the Harmala signature, it felt very similar to what would be a low dose of Rue minus the Harmaline (like 1.5 to 2 grams of Rue, enough for a faint whiff of Harmalas), as well as similarly to smoked Harmalas. Though i did smoke a little Cannabis, as per usual, so maybe that added to it but it was the same headspace once i smoked. Like, you know how some people smoke Cannabis and Tobacco mixed? I believe it to be because of the Harmalas in Tobacco that synergize with the Cannabis. I've noticed this synergy with smoked freebased Harmalas melted onto Cannabis, so i'm very familiar with the headspace associated.

And at 10 grams of Lemon Balm tea, i was really convinced (judging by what was felt) that maybe an ounce up to 50 grams, 75 grams tops, would be enough Harmine.

Now, i could be working myself, and others possibly, up for nothing, but i am determined to pursue this option and see if it works. If it doesn't work, at least we know, but if it does work, it would make for an awesome Ayahuasca. I'm even open to the idea of drinking a strong tea regardless, and have the relaxant effect going on with smoked Changa, or maybe even after taking Harmalas sublingually or orally along with the Lemon Balm to work in tandem with DMT.

I myself will pursue this further in a few weeks to see where this takes me. Of course first, i'll have to familiarize myself with a cup of Lemon Balm tea from an ounce worth, and increase the dose from there until i find a suitable spot/level where i'm fairly certain if Harmine is there it should activate the DMT. I will even try it on a completely empty stomach as to make sure everything gets absorbed smoothly and quickly. I will even continue drinking another cup after taking the DMT orally. If anything, this will settle a personal curiosity for me, and it could be my mind running away from me but something is telling me there's something to this Lemon Balm.
 
Also though, one thing that also interests me is that Lemon Balm also contains other MAO-A inhibiting compounds, so that could play into the whole thing. Though, everything i've looked up on alternative MAO-A/I's is that no one has ever gotten anything else besides Harmalas, to work. Even people testing MAO-A/I's like quercetin in high, high doses, have nothing at all happen.

My take on that, is that while MAO-A inhibition is important, i think the inhibition of several CYP liver enzymes by the Harmalas also plays a role, hence why no one can ever get anything else to work because other compounds probably don't inhibit the CYP liver enzymes or if they do it's rather quickly. Because the Harmalas inhibit the liver enzymes that are required for it's metabolization, so whenever the inhibition lets up, the Harmalas are able to be metabolized. Which would explain why in my personal experience with Moclobemide as the RIMA, DMT only seems to last an hour or two, which is about the half-time of the Moclobemide's liver inhibition, while it's MAO-A/I lasts at least 8 hours, some even sat 16 hours.

Idk, i've had alot of time to think on a lot of stuff about this and am very interested in the pharmacology and such of several plants.
 
I really doubt what you are feeling is harmine. Maybe flavonoids.

"Even people testing MAO-A/I's like quercetin in high, high doses, have nothing at all happen."

Querecetin is active and the flavonoids present likely contribute greatly to whatever activity lemon balm has. For me lemon balm is just kind of lightly sedating if I drink a bunch of it, like some flavonoids are. I think your gunna need more than an ounce to get any appreciable levels of harmine, based on what literature there is.
 
Well Jamie, that is to be determined my friend, either it contains it or it doesn't. And according to that one study in the main post, they said they had detected Harmine for certain in Lemon Balm. Though it is only one source, i feel maybe a few of us can test it in many ways to conclude for a fact if it does or not. I'd be willing to make some very strong tea, as well as trying to extract from some. I wish someone else with the necessary equipment could perhaps analyze the Lemon Balm to see what all compounds are in there and what the actives are.

Either way though, Lemon Balm has found it's way into my 'Huasca/Changa recipe, and i for one think it's effects would go really well with a DMT source.

Edit - If there is a calling for more than an ounce, even more than 75 grams, i'll try my best to give it a shot. Also, that 10 grams of Lemon Balm really did relax me, i had an MAO-A/I like headspace with the Cannabis, and it didn't seem sedative to me, instead it felt a little uplifting, i even caught myself smiling/laughing a little.
 
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