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Lithium (reduc agent) from Watch Battery for reducing DMT-Oxide ¿?

Migrated topic.
Pancho

Pancho

Reality Gazer
Hi there.
SWIM needs badly to reduce his DMT.
He can't buy reducing agents. Besides he needs just a little.

He thought about batterys, and searched the internet for some help.
He read about this source of Lithium and the procedure for getting it. Some pics he saw...

Dismantled Battery
dsc05629b640x480pf5.jpg


Sticky Lithium (they say this is the Lithium, but SWIM has never seen some)
dsc05631b640x480xi9.jpg



Well, the questions about this procedure: Does it look fine to you? Would you use this "Lithium"? or you think it is not...

And some questions about the reducing procedure: How to proceed? Just dissolving DMT in acidic Lithium water?


SWIM just need some advise from more experienced fellows for feel more selfconfident before trying it.
Please help with your opinion :d Thanks
 
Aps, And if you know about some other reducing agent available at common market... even better
 
I personally wouldn't use Lithium from watch batteries without a thorough understanding of what else was in the batteries and how the reaction needed to actually take place (IE references for the reduction of oxides via lithium).

While Aluminum should work, I believe that you would have to do an amalgamation using mercury to rid the aluminum of the surface layer of Aluminum oxide on it. And I wouldn't mess with mercury.

Zinc in acetic acid does work. There are reference posted here on the Nexus, and in the literature. Essentially the cmpd to be reduced is taken up in acetic acid, an excess of zinc dust is added and the solution is lightly heated and/or stirred for an hour or so:

"It was further found that a reduction with zinc dust and acetic acid of the oxide returned the parent base in good yield, as estimated by the intensity of the color after paper chromotography" Fish 1955, Indole Bases of P. peregrina (L.) Benth and Related Species.

Zinc should be easy enough to find. Think coins and cheap metal products. It is also helpful to use a stronger acid than vinegar. Photographic Stop Bath is 30% Glacial acetic acid.

There are also some references to using Iron:

"DMT-oxide was reduced to DMT with ferrous sulfate in ammonia solution... ...DMT N-oxide (5mg) was reduced by suspension in conc. aq. NH3 (1ml), excess FeSO4 added and the mixture refluxed for 30 min. DMT was extracted with Et2O and identified by TLC comparison with an authentic sample." Kawanishi et al 1985, Alkaloids from the hallucinogenic plant Virola sebifera.

-D.
 
Well the idea behind an aluminum based reduction is to use a strong acid such as HCl to donate a proton(H+). Trust me, aluminum foil even with the oxide layer has no issue being consumed, and evolving H2, with hydrochloric acid. Though it may take a little while for the reaction to begin. IF this reduction works it will take a fair amount of stirring, and some fairly constant SLOW 'pot feeding' with fresh foil and/or HCl. Remember you are evolving highly flammable hydrogen gas, so don't do this near open flames or furnaces, etc.

An amalgam should be much quicker and effective, but there are dangers of working with things such as mercury salts(to humans and to water) one should be aware of before considering. Have a safe good place to put your mercury waste, that is not down the drain, or in a water body.

Are you contemplating a Birch style reduction? Are you sure it even is N-oxide or could it just be fatty impurities from the plant? I would try cleaning some of the residue off of that battery before use. Chances are you'll require more lithium than that. Lithium quickly oxidizes in the air and becomes worthless as a reducing agent. It must be stored in an anhydrous(free from water) solution such as paraffin, or mineral oil to prevent this.

If you are planning a birch style reduction you must be CERTAIN your solvent is free from water. When lithium metal touches water it rips water molecules apart and forms a new bond, in an exothermic(heat giving) way. Heat + non polar solvents can cause fire(of course). This is the cause for many clandestine meth-amphetamine explosions.

Edit - @Dozuki - I have used a FeSO4/NH3 coordination complex for the reduction of an n-oxide of a betacarboline alkaloid. It appeared to work. FeSO4 can be fairly easily made with H2SO4 drain-cleaner and steel wool. Some filtering of the carbon will need to be an intermittent step, so don't use CONC. H2SO4. Also this compound oxidizes readily especially on heating. The product should form translucent mint-green crystals. I recommend making excess in-case your first try fails. Excess NH3 should be used because there is trapped H2SO4 in the crystals unless further purification is done. Choose your stoichiometry to create it in a proportion that will readily crystalise in an salt-ice-bath. Usually some heat is necessary for this reaction to occur, so be sure you are doing this outside or in a fume-hood(concentrated ammonia is a lachrymotor and not a friend to the respiratory system).

Hopefully this helps.
 
SnozzleBerry said:
Pancho said:
SWIM needs badly to reduce his DMT.
Click to expand...
why?
Click to expand...

His DMT-Oxide /fix'd
DMT-oxide is less effective, mainly with the "closed-eye visuals" (inb4 breaktru). However it is more easy to think and for "asking" knowledge and answers, and more pleasant trip. Otherwise it is more psychonauticly valuable....

It is clearly oxidized. Its 2,5 years old, and the color turned mainly before it got casually heated (40-50ºC for 3 hours).
This is its color now:
dmtoxidecolor.png



Well, until now I think I will tell SWIM that is safer to get some Zn, seems to be a common known reaction.
Thanks fellows :p
 
Rather than reduce, why not re-x? It's simpler, less risky and you may not have nearly as much n-oxide as you think. Do a single re-x, separate the saturated solvent from any oils and crystallize the DMT. Then you can see how much DMT you wind up with and how much oil and figure out whether or not it's worth doing a reduction on the remaining oil. Just a thought...
 
as he said ^

It very possible that if there's any oxide, it might just be superficial oxidation. Re-x, see your yields, maybe its not worth it to think of reduction.

As others said, please take safety care, H2 gases with aluminium reduction, unknown impurities in lithium (and possible it doesnt work for some reason), etc etc..

If after all you want anyways to do the reduction, I would look into the standard literature n-oxide reduction with zinc and acetic acid. Safe and easy.
 
Dozuki said:
Zinc in acetic acid does work. There are reference posted here on the Nexus, and in the literature.
Click to expand...

I found just one topic about this and the guy oxided DMT succesfully, but the reduction was a failure. I even doubt about the success of the oxidation, because it only based on color of the supposed compound in solution and never extracted it.
 
Well zinc reduction certainly works, its been published several times in literature. The person (Mindlusion IIRC) did not do it according to literature, he used HCl and not acetic acid.. Also, ammonia is always the base used, dont know if it makes a difference.
 
endlessness said:
If after all you want anyways to do the reduction, I would look into the standard literature n-oxide reduction with zinc and acetic acid. Safe and easy.
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks fellows :p
endlessness, Could you please reach me this literature? *.*
 
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