Lophophora mathematics

[dooby]

Hello,

I was wondering, if I were to order some cacti with the intention of consuming them, what would be the best value for money...

An 8cm Lophophora, said to be 18-20 years old, costs 75 euros.
A 6cm specimen, said to be at least 12 years old, costs 35 euros.
A 4cm specimen costs 15 euros.

So, for 70-75 euros, one could have either 1, 2 or 5 cacti...

What would be the determining factor: volume of material or age of material in regards to the amount of alkaloids that are being consumed?

I am not planning on extracting them as this would be considered sacrilege, I am looking for a relatively strong full-spectrum experience preferably from tea...

Any advice would be appreciated, as most info states that a number of buttons are consumed without much reference to age or size which isn't really helping...(the amounts mentioned on erowid are for medium sized peyotes (>2.5 cm) only)

PLUR

 

[jamie]

I would say grow them out..peyote is becoming rare, especially in the wild..takes a long time to grow..I say wait till you can grow enough to eat some, and get some trichs in the meantime..rather than just buying some buttons(which likely are going to be of little potency at that stage) and eating them all. Grow the out till you can eat some and keep some going..then you will always have peyote and can contribute to it's sustainability.

Probly not the answer you are looking for, but that is my feelings in reguards to people eating peyote.

 

[dooby]

I would say grow them out..peyote is becoming rare, especially in the wild..takes a long time to grow..I say wait till you can grow enough to eat some, and get some trichs in the meantime..rather than just buying some buttons(which likely are going to be of little potency at that stage) and eating them all. Grow the out till you can eat some and keep some going..then you will always have peyote and can contribute to it's sustainability.

Probly not the answer you are looking for, but that is my feelings in reguards to people eating peyote.

As much as I respect your opinion please note that:

I was planning on also buying a mature caespitosa from which I would try to propagate by cutting buttons and trying to have them re-root and become "mothers" themselves...

Also, I would not buy buttons but complete plants, which means I could consume them and try to rescue the roots and have them regrow a new plant (wouldn't a new plant from a 25-year old root benefit from the root's age?)

I have to admit I don't have the patience to buy seeds and wait 15 years, I'm an old man already,...

 

[Auxin]

If they are the same shapes, mathematically the 8 and 6 cm plants are being sold for roughly the same euro value per gram. The 4 cm ones are a bit more expensive per gram, and are enough younger that the decrease in alkaloid levels could theoretically be relevant as well.
Volume of a sphere is 4.189 times the radius cubed, if they were flattened a bit but still the same shape the equation would still provide a valid representation of the ratios between the plants.

As for being too old to wait 15 years. With the help of Pereskiopsis, and an abundance of fertilizer, a seed can become a 4-6 cm plant in 12-18 months. Put on to its own roots at that point it could increase its alkaloid content quite a bit over the following year.

As for overharvesting, while publicly accessible areas in the chihuahuan desert are being subject to overharvesting it is worth considering that these are apparently in a european greenhouse rather than a chihuahuan ranch.

 

[MagicGing]

As for being too old to wait 15 years. With the help of Pereskiopsis, and an abundance of fertilizer, a seed can become a 4-6 cm plant in 12-18 months. Put on to its own roots at that point it could increase its alkaloid content quite a bit over the following year.

auxin, are you saying that after the loph has been grafted onto the pereskiopsis for 12-18 months, putting the loph back onto the lophs originaal roots will increase the lophs alks?
or did i completely misunderstand?

 

[Auxin]

Pereskiopsis is a temporary stock for phenomenal growth rates for grafting seedlings or very small pups.
When cacti are grafted to it their growth far outpaces their alkaloid production.
After a cactus is degrafted from pereskiopsis, rooted, and left to grow on its own roots it starts pumping out alkaloids in a more reasonable rate relative to its growth.

So, with any cactus, pereskiopsis stock (with consistently wet soil and liberal fertilizer) = very fast almost non-bitter growth.
Growing cactus on its own roots = bitter growth.

 

[kiang]

I would buy the 4cm lophos and graft them. Wouldn't consume them until i would have them in a sustainable manner, in 5 years or so.. in the meantime i would look for trichs.

Grafted lophos can give seeds in 1 year.

 

[dooby]

Thank you very much Auxin for your explanation...

So, with any cactus, pereskiopsis stock (with consistently wet soil and liberal fertilizer) = very fast almost non-bitter growth.
Growing cactus on its own roots = bitter growth.

Is it safe to conclude that the root is the determining factor as far as alkaloid production is concerned?

I am now imagining how it could be possible to grow a loph on a pereskiopsis until it's 6cm, harvest a 6cm "genuine" button, and graft the one coming from the pereskiopsis onto the 6cm roots while at the same time grafting a new pup onto the pereskiopsis...

This explains why some vendors have loph grafted onto pere on offer I guess...

Also, if cacti vendors are using this tactic, it would mean that size would no longer be an indication of age when choosing a cactus to buy?

Last question for now: if a 3 year old loph coming from a pere has the size of a 15 year "genuine" loph and is grafted onto a 15-year old root, how long would it take before the alkaloid content of the transplanted "young" loph is up to par with its size? Or would this never happen?

I've already been told that re-rooting a loph cutting takes a lot of time, so one would need an old (sufficiently big) root for grafting the transplant coming from a pere onto or else this system won't work, am I right?

Has anyone ever grafted a loph onto a fast-growing mesc producing cactus (bridgesii?)?

PLUR

PS I also found a vendor that sells "peyote" but their pictures are for sure from L. diffusa and if I'm not mistaken the ratio in which mescaline and pellotine are present in diffusa is the opposite from williamsii so I sent them a message to ask them what's up with this...

 

[WEM]

I've already been told that re-rooting a loph cutting takes a lot of time, so one would need an old (sufficiently big) root for grafting the transplant coming from a pere onto or else this system won't work, am I right?

You can speed root growth by dipping the cut end into rooting hormone (the standard 1-3% Indole-3-butyric acid you can find) and sulfur powder. The powdered sulfur helps prevent rot while the rooting hormone does its job.

 

[Auxin]

Is it safe to conclude that the root is the determining factor as far as alkaloid production is concerned?

No, speed of growth and environmental conditions are. Slower growth and harsher conditions equals more accumulation of alkaloids. Even in its native habitat the faster growing regrowth from previously harvested plants is weaker and plants in harsher, drier environments are stronger.

I am now imagining how it could be possible to grow a loph on a pereskiopsis until it's 6cm, harvest a 6cm "genuine" button, and graft the one coming from the pereskiopsis onto the 6cm roots

I think you visualized the last part wrong. After degrafting from pereskiopsis (or anything else) its not grafted on to roots, its left in a shaded dry spot to callous the wound for 2 weeks and then gently made to grow its own roots. Most cacti are easy to root, provided they are simply planted in dry sand for the first weeks until they make root buds.

Also, if cacti vendors are using this tactic, it would mean that size would no longer be an indication of age when choosing a cactus to buy?

Correct, size alone is no indication of age. Even without grafting a grower can make a loph grow to 8 cm in a fraction of the time that it would in the wild. Plant appearance gives a strong indication or how fast or 'hard' it was grown. The ones that look like bright green baseballs with two dozen little white mohawks were not grown anything like wild ones, and were likely grafted.
If your really curious about the subject of the effects of grafting, growth speed, fertilizers, and soils on cactus appearance there is a sort of free book called 'The Stone Eaters' written on it by a free cactus magazine. [Book Link]

Has anyone ever grafted a loph onto a fast-growing mesc producing cactus (bridgesii?)?

Yup :lol: Trichocereus are among the most common stocks for lophs. Here, too, alkaloid concentration is proportional to growth speed and the alkaloids from the loph stay there and dont go down to the stock.

Last question for now: if a 3 year old loph coming from a pere...

Pereskiopsis should only be used as a temporary stock. 8 to 18 months. With many cacti some time after usually 12 months the graft union will begin to fail and rot can even go right up the middle of the cactus. That rot thing is less common with trichocereus, more common with lophs and similar non-columnar species.

 

[dooby]

Thank you so much Auxin...

 

[DiMiTriX]

i'd not grow peyote for cunsuption..trichos ftw! 8)
peyotes are decorative :lol:

 

[dg]

i'd not grow peyote for cunsuption..trichos ftw! 8)
peyotes are decorative :lol:

I agree to a point. eventually you may have too many to be considered decorative and will want to sample.
a nice compromise is to eat 200-400mg of trich extracted crystal (or tea) and then consume as many buttons as your gut will handle.

ps, nice post Auxin! (this guy knows his stuff)