LSD spiritual or ego-trip?

[thEorEtical]

This might not be as related as you would like my response to be... but regardless, I'll give some input. Speaking of the word ego is what brought me to add this to your discussion. LSD seems to be the substance that I have most often had ego-death experiences on. What most, psychedelically(?) uneducated people would call a "bad trip", when you're basically faced with your subconscious fears or situations that make you feel small and helpless.. it's really just as if your ego were a brick wall, breaking itself down brick by brick right before your eyes.. it can be very scary even if you know what to expect, and especially if you don't. But it can be very humbling in a good way to an open and strong minded individual.

Peace, Love, and Happy Travels.

 

[MultiDimensionalTherapy]

i think lsd can provoque this type of delusions, because it conserves your ego, even if not in the tradicional way.

dmt is difrent because it shatters your ego.

if you are in a trans personal space, you will feel god and the divine presence, and remember it as an outside the box experience.
if you under lsd, your sense of self is preserved, so your mind will continue rotulating.
i think its quite normal that someone that is tripping balls, but still with its sense of self, to connecte the mistical experience to the "I" or "ME"that are natural and necessary to our ego.

 

[Dark_Star]

^^^That is very false in my experience. LSD is extremely good at removing the sense of self. That's one of the things that made it so fascinating to the doctors, therapists & intellectuals of the 50s & early 60s. I've consumed a variety of psychedelic substances, and no other is even close to be being as successful as LSD at this. It doesn't take a lot to do so either. The thing is, over the past several years underdosed L has become prevalent, which skews the perception of what it can do. It's also often used as a party drug in a party setting, which is an altogether different situation. DMT, in my experience, does not remove my sense of self at all; it places me in an entirely different realm. Both of these substances allow me to feel the same divine presence; just in different ways.

 

[jamie]

you don't get ego death with DMT? The idea that DMT just puts people in another realm while your whole sense of self is intact is one that McKenna seemed to subscribe to, but it does not relate to my experience.

 

[Dark_Star]

Yeah my sense of self is pretty much always intact. There was only one time that I can recall when it wasn't. I had this breakthrough experience where I ascended through many levels of hyperspace, each with it's own resident divine entities. I had this distinct feeling of being "blown through the gates of heaven" and after this I think that my ego did dissolve & I existed as what I recall as a fractal of sorts. I'm not 100% positive that I had no sense of self at the time though, cause I definitely did for the rest of the experience. That was the only time though.

Also, my experience is only with vap'd DMT. I have no experience with oral DMT + MAOIs. I'd imagine that this combo is very different.

 

[acacian]

you don't get ego death with DMT? The idea that DMT just puts people in another realm while your whole sense of self is intact is one that McKenna seemed to subscribe to, but it does not relate to my experience.

my sense of self seems to remain intact with DMT in the sense that it is always telling me very specific messages about my actions, my emotions and my intentions that I always understand in context of my journey as a human(even though I am not "thinking about it while it is happening, i am just "seeing" it)... but generally it is always a teaching about "me" and ways I can better myself... this is something I have only experienced since working with acacia extracts too. my experiences with mimosa felt much differen't - though that could have been a reflection of where my life was at the time... the presence that teaches me in hyperspace is always very motherly/fatherly and I always feel like the learning child

 

[nexalizer]

IME there have never been ego-trip-like experiences from my LSD adventures. It is the only psychedelic that (so far) has given me delusions (during the trip) but they were not of like the delusions being described here.

Like endlessness said, up to a certain dose I also find it very useful for brainstorming, playing music, and it definitely enhances sensual/sexual contact. At such doses, it really does not feel like I've taken a drug, and absolutely not like tripping at all - the ability to maintain a conversation is not affected, thoughts are not racing, things are not dancing and melting, etc.

 

[Orion]

No Knowing, what you said in the first paragraph pretty much sport on, that's all I have to say.

 

[universecannon]

I just saw something on Reddit that explains a somewhat funny but familiar case of these sorts of delusions that can take hold, especially in bizarre set/settings.

Simon Posford (of shpongle) did a reddit interview with the posters there, and this was in one of the comments:

"At your NYC Shpongle LIVE show at Hammerstein ballroom on Halloween 2011, I may have gotten a bit too "Shpongled" and decided to join you and the band up on stage not once, but twice. I wrongly thought the entire show was the culmination of my whole life and that I was going to be transitioning on to another dimension once the show ended. The first time the security was really nice to me and let me back in, but in my altered state of mind I figured I should go back up for a second go. Security was not so nice this time and dragged me out leaving me to wander the streets of New York Shpongled beyond all belief."

 

[No Knowing]

Yea I was at that show. Best show I had ever been at. Near Halloween, everyone in costume. The security was kind of flabbergasted at the trippiness of the show and audience. I talked to one middle aged african security guard and he said, "Wow I like this, THIS IS SOME TRIBAL SHIT." The LSD delusions were running rampant though, but in a fun way.

There was atleast 4 people who jumped up on stage. I remember thinking [was quite shpongled myself] WOW that Shpongle performer kind of sucks, then they were quickly escorted off stage.

That show had some crazy[delusional] energy I was quite sure that it was going to pour out into the streets of New York and we would all have psychic powers bringing the wider populace into Shpongleland. Or that this was the end of my life, time to enter hyperspace for REAL.:?:

Everyone there seemed to be REAL deep into LSD among other things. Everyone would ask you, "Do you have any more L?" and everyone would respond, "....I ate IT ALL."

I remember a CLOUD of DMT smoke rising off the dance floor during the song, Divine Moments of Truth. I had a balcony seat, if I was on the dance floor maybe entering Shpongleland would have entered my shpongled mind too.....:twisted:

 

[SKA]

I still use LSD fairly regularly, [around a half-dozen times a year] but it still carries the same double-edged sword quality to it that it did when I began use years ago. It grants me great appreciation for nature and the universe but often I find the INCREDIBLY profound thoughts I have on it make little sense or are hardly applicable to everyday life once I come down. Often during the trip I believe I have figured out some kind of secret or "ultimate truth" about reality, which leads to new dogma construction. :?: They require discarding rather than integration...

I took 5 hits by myself in the religious set and setting of my bedroom for the December 21, 2012 solstice and I had a very intense experience that made me think I was destined to become a mystic, world teacher, or messiah AGAIN; much like my first self-directed LSD trip.[seems to be a recurring theme for LSD ego-trips and me] This time I didn't let it affect my life since I knew where those delusions took me after the first LSD trip.[megalomania, escapism, use of downers, alienation from others]

A few months later I had a great trip with a childhood friend where we discussed the future and humanity's destiny and also drank passionflower tea, ate harmalas, and smoked DMT to breakthrough. This trip was VERY enlightening and didn't seem to offer delusions as some of my others had. I saw my part as a VERY insignificant aspect of an infinite universe. Although the insights were otherworldly they seemed to really apply to life and experience as a whole. It really translated to an increased quality of life and understanding over time.

Just a week ago I tripped at a festival and I had all these wild notions that festivals were run by some kind of underground cabal that was hoping to transfer lots of psychedelic peoples to hyperspace all at once or to expose teenagers to psychedelics. I thought I had figured out some secret to society in their allowal of festivals to take place.[ego-centered revelation (only I knew)] Like it was all part of "some plan" :shock: While this could be a valid interpretation of festivals[from one angle] I saw that they seem to really be run for fun and profit once I came down.

I'm glad [mostly] thanks to DMT I now question my trips validity rather than believing them to be a pure expression of truth.

I'm just wondering if others have experienced LSD's ability to give one a delusional ego-trip or a mystical revelatory trip, and what has made the difference in trips for yourself. I think I may only be using LSD when I am able to mix it with DMT as that provided the cosmic trip I was looking for with information that required integration and pondering rather than information that must be discarded because of its delusional[egocentric] and "ultimate truth"[dogma] content once I come down.

Look forward to hearing experiences.

I have at times FELT like super-human while under the influence of LSD. I see how that could
escalate into megalomania. Luckily I never allowed these Feelings to affect my beliefs about myself. Usually LSD, as other Psychedelics, humble me. Psychedelics make me very aware of the Ego & it's delusions and as such they liberate me from these delusions.

But then again I have long been aware of the insanity that proliferates mankind: Ego.
And because I have always been aware of the Ego and it's characteristics, I've allways been on guard against Megalomaniac/Narcissistic beliews and views trying to root in my mind.

Mind you, when I was feeling this "super human" strength, intelligence & insights I was VERY much seduced to conclude my superiority in respect to others too. But immediately I was aware of the suspicious nature of the beliefs/claims these feelings persuaded me to make.
I immediately recognised them as attempts of the Ego to glorify itself and thus these beliefs were never allowed to solidify/crystalise, but rather broken down immediately.

What has always helped me avoid rising out of Egoic delusion just to fall back in deeper after a Psychedelic experience but also on a day to day basis when sober,
is the Buddhist view on the Ego; On what exactly it is and how to liberate oneself from it.

This has instilled a constant awareness that quickly recognises any- and all things Egoic
& rejects them before they can take root.

 

[Rising Spirit]

High there, Folks,

While I haven't' taken LSD since 1992, I have a photographic memory and a highly lucid capacity for total recall of past events and experiences. A gift from my maternal grandfather, I suppose? Theses days, I just don't have the freedom from schedules and time-constraints to spend sooooooo many hours in a heavy psychedelic state of mind, especially on higher doses. I honestly prefer organic Medicines, anyhooooooo...

In my tiny little world, LSD helped to facilitate a greater release from the mental loop we ordinarily hum along to. This opens a doorway into a natural state of original thought and direct experience. Raises deep questions about just why we even exist at all, as sentient witness of the unfolding of our own individual lives, as they inter-mesh with the sequential dreamscapes of other beings and their paradigms. Furthermore, I feel is is certainly spiritual. And in higher doses, LSD can totally erase, albeit temporarily, much of what we identify with as our ego.

I do agree that LSD affects individuals quite differently and most distinctly, regardless of the "drug's" specificity in chemical reaction and exact areas of the brain directly affected. I personally found it highly spiritual and it led me to a direct interphase and experience of the Godhead. It most surely opened windows for my perception, into the realm of infinity and the nature of the eternal. The peaks were often taking place in an altered level of reality, shifted into exponentially higher frequencies which are beyond accurate description but wholly Divine.

For many folks, the effects are all over the gambit of human personal characteristics and a wide spectrum of behaviorisms. Classic arch-types seem to bubble up in simple conversations, acting out epic or all too often, psychedelically-distorted human dramatics and in some cases, produces histrionics and sheer lunacy! But these behaviorisms are symptomatic of egoism, one and all of them. Egos are clearly defined self orientation, even if psychedelic entheogens have shattered the pattern for a spell (or "tripped-out" in modern vernacular). It's not like traveling into Hyperspace and losing consciousness of having a material body to inhabit. There does seem to exist cohesive witness or a "self", which perceives the dreamscape and the panoramic light show.

Plants are some of my most revered Teachers and Allies; while synthetic, LSD-25 was derived from natural ergot fungus. So, I do sort of include it with the other Sacred Plant Teachers. By virtue of their Magikal chemical make-up, they aide in shaping or in many cases, un-shaping an individual's vantage point. This shifts ones attention to another channel or frequency of awareness and in so doing, the indwelling witness perceives glimpses of what this existential paradigm is actually about... ergo, which illusions mesmerize us most fixedly. A fusion of the microcosmic view and the macrocosmic view? Seeing beneath the surface of our subjective observations, the sequential data we receive through the "normal" range of our 5 senses, intelligence and intuition. :thumb_up:

 

[Rising Spirit]

This might not be as related as you would like my response to be... but regardless, I'll give some input. Speaking of the word ego is what brought me to add this to your discussion. LSD seems to be the substance that I have most often had ego-death experiences on. What most, psychedelically(?) uneducated people would call a "bad trip", when you're basically faced with your subconscious fears or situations that make you feel small and helpless.. it's really just as if your ego were a brick wall, breaking itself down brick by brick right before your eyes.. it can be very scary even if you know what to expect, and especially if you don't. But it can be very humbling in a good way to an open and strong minded individual.

For many folks, the effects are all over the gambit of human personal characteristics and a wide spectrum of behaviorisms. Classic arch-types seem to bubble up in simple conversations, acting-out epic or all too often, psychedelically-distorted human dramatics and in some cases, produces histrionics and sheer lunacy. But these behaviorisms are egos, one and all of them. Egos are clearly defined epicenters of self-orientation, even if on psychedelics (or in common vernacular, tripped-out) 8)

But that's only highly prevalent on lower doses or at least towards the the onset of what may very well become an intense break-through level, shift in conscious-awareness. But this is only on relatively conservative doses, so it seems that it intensifies exponentially and magnifies much of the personal characteristics of the human being consuming them, certainly so to some degree or another.

Higher doses are another story, altogether. But my many experiences with this Medicine, is one of not only having an ego death experience... it is more like I have finally noticed that my ego is not even real. It is a fantasy I have constructed to make sense out of something I had to learn to adapt to... or simply cease to exist.

You know, when a person suddenly sees that if the conceptual lens he or she gazes through, habitually and on many levels clings to (which is so useful for survival in this dichotomous world). But it is a self-created artifice and is not really who you are at all. It's like you find yourself naked in an unknown land. Where did all the clothing all go? Ego, what ego??? I can't even find one anymore!!! :shock:

Everything is then incomprehensibly uncontrollable, new and totally mysterious. Reality is out-the-window and something else has replaced it in your perceptual field. A view which you can't really even recognize, gone is that which was once so familiar. In it's place, limitless possibility!

 

[Rising Spirit]

That is very false in my experience. LSD is extremely good at removing the sense of self. That's one of the things that made it so fascinating to the doctors, therapists & intellectuals of the 50s & early 60s. I've consumed a variety of psychedelic substances, and no other is even close to be being as successful as LSD at this. It doesn't take a lot to do so either. The thing is, over the past several years underdosed L has become prevalent, which skews the perception of what it can do. It's also often used as a party drug in a party setting, which is an altogether different situation. DMT, in my experience, does not remove my sense of self at all; it places me in an entirely different realm. Both of these substances allow me to feel the same divine presence; just in different ways.

And I've gotta say, LSD is as "spiritual" an experience as any of the big players of the major pantheon of Sacred Medicines. It unites my consciousness within the web of the Unified Field of Being. As it is with the rest of the psychedelic entheogens like: mescaline, psilocybin and especially DMT. But the differentiation in my way of perceiving it is this, traditional Sacred Plants have this incredible support network interlocked in their history and usage.

Frankly, I don't know if it is logical to conclude that there is a symbiosis betwixt the DNA of the humanoid species and the molecular chemistry of these plants... but I can seemingly FEEL the Spirit of Shamans and Mystics of millenniums in the making, which has been woven this lovely psychic ritual. It's a Sacred, inter-connected place you can tap into and fuse/join with the entirety of the traditional lineage and shamanic fraternity.

In my experiences, which number over 500 sessions, it's essentially like loosing the fixation of being your encoded, conditioned self... and in this light, LSD can either amplify or obliterate the human ego, based on dosage and/or receptivity to it's particular Medicine. But I feel that some modicum of caution and restraint is wise. And perhaps this is quite exhilarating to the fearless psychonaut, for myself it was so beautifully terrifying, that I learned to understand the fulcrum of the state of mind it generates, embrace it and learn to observe my vision and accept that I had no control or ability to stop what was happening. But I learned... or perhaps, unlearned how to cope, to enjoy the dissolution of my separation and individuality. Salvia also does this to me too, as well as nitrous oxide. Like I am falling into the insubstantial Void and I will never find myself again... EVER!!!

I'd go as far as saying most of the "bad trips" so associated with taking LSD in party situations, are directly because the solidity of the egos dissolves like an Alka-Seltzer tablet bubbling itself into nothingness, in a glass of water. This creates a panic-state of sorts and the end result is either suffering beyond quantification or letting go and melting into the vortex of the peak. Then comes the whiteout experience, after much soul-searching and focused self-inquiry, leading to the revelation that the self is a mirage, promotes letting go wholly. Then and only then, "all is well in the kingdom", as they say. 8)

 

[Skitty]

I've had all ranging trips on LSD. Wild, melty, completely incoherent madness, to low level paranoia and feeding my own insecurities.

I think the most important thing that hasn't really been mentioned in this thread is that real LSD is very rare these days, unless you are lucky enough to have a LEGIT hookup. When you have had a good hit of real acid, there is nothing like it, IMO. When I was in college, I thought I had tried acid a few times, and I had had good times, learned a little bit, no big deal. Then Halloween came around. One (pretty large) tab later, I'm on the ground gasping for breath as the stuff hits me, completely disoriented. What ensued could only be found in a Hunter S. Thompson book. I was floored, and luckily my buddy had taken some too so we were able to navigate the wild world of Samhain together. Considering I was 19, it was easily the strongest experience to enter my little world ever. I have not found acid like that ever again, despite many attempts.

I haven't tried any psychotherapy with it, but I sense some great potential.

 

[Enoon]

I find LSD to be very spiritual in its own way. It certainly has a different feel to it than mushrooms or DMT or any other entheogen, just like all of them are different from one another. I strongly dislike the whole "plant spirit" idea, saying that some entheogens have spirit and others (LSD, extracted DMT...) don't - I simply don't believe this. So I don't see LSD apart from the other entheogens.

Personally I've experienced strong and profound feelings that later proved to be erroneous or irrelevant with almost all substances I've taken. Mushrooms have made me feel like the one and only Ruler of the universe, DMT made me feel like I needed to develope a new language to communicate with cosmic consciousness and teach it to the world, with LSD I entered a brotherhood of pan-dimentional beings building a trans-personal network of consciousness to step up the evolution of the universe... But I never felt delusional after these things.

When I was younger I wanted psychedelics to change me, I wanted to grasp the things I'd seen in my trips and use them to transform me or my world around me. But once on baseline again I could never really believe in what I had seen in a literal sense and thus always stuck to integrating all of it in a more metaphoric and symbolic sense. I find these experiences extremely enjoyable and valuable for me, no matter if they are "not true" or what some would call delusional. I feel that this is not the proper way to approach the matter. I mean, if you watch a comedy and it makes you laugh, do you get upset at the actors for acting and being fake? Or do you enjoy the laughing?

 

[vineseeker]

you have to dose lsd at 1000-2000ug that way there will be no ego-trip

 

[Dark_Star]

I think the most important thing that hasn't really been mentioned in this thread is that real LSD is very rare these days, unless you are lucky enough to have a LEGIT hookup.

Not true. There's tons of it. Make sure to utilize test kits before indulging.

 

[JohnGriggsII]

Hey guys, I was just recently upgraded to member, and I wanted to share with you what I posted in the newcomers section. I hope it provides some answers to the LSD egocentricity problem

There was a thread I saw in a part of the site that I am not allowed to post in that talked about having issues with egocentricity and messiah complexes while on LSD. They chalked it up to "plant spirits" and the unwholesomeness of synthetic compounds, but I have a much more concrete reason for this. LSD, unlike most psychedelics, also acts on the dopamine receptors (d2 and d3 agonists if IIRC). These are the same receptors amphetamines indirectly stimulate (though the way they stimulate is very different, amphetamines raise endogenous dopamine levels unnaturally high, LSD acts directly on the D receptors). This dopaminergic activity contributes to the "creative-stimulant" activity LSD has (hoffman himself took microdoses as a mild stimulant, he compared it to ritalin, and if it hadn't been made illegal he intended to bring it to market as a tonic), but can also cause egocentricity and mania.

However, in the "Handbook For the Therapeutic use of LSD-25, Individual and group Procedures" (1959 - D.B. BLEWETT, Ph.D. & N. CHWELOS, M.D.), they briefly talk about how some people tend to shift the focus of their trip either entirely outward (escaping the internal reality) or entirely inward (escaping the external reality). They thought that the egocentric effects of LSD were actually examples of the Psyche trying to protect its sense of stability (aka a psychological block, which would be counter-productive within a therapeutic setting).

I personally think it's some combination of the two factors. Some people already have very active d receptors, so there may be a population segment that is prone to mania, messianic thoughts, or other forms of egocentricity while under the influence of LSD (I consider myself a part of that population). In my experience, this can be (partially) combated by having a sober trip sitter present to help a tripper keep a grip on reality.

 

[starway6]

Mathematician Compares DMT Experience with LSD Experience on ...► 4:13► 4:13vimeo.com/8664731
Jan 11, 2010
Mathematician Compares DMT Experience with LSD Experience ... the connections between cutting-edge neuroscience, quantum physics, and ...