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MAO depression
- Thread starter burnt
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fascinating.....i wonder if that is why my daily intake of caapi tea has SIGNIFICANTLY improved my mood since i began drinking it about 8 days ago.... i knew it was an MAOI, maybe it inhibits this MAO-A as well..
interesting read burnt...thanks for the post!
L&G!!
interesting read burnt...thanks for the post!
L&G!!
I think this article helps to explain WHY Caapi is an effective anti-depressant!
Yes, Harmala alkaloids in both Caapi and Rue are RIMA's (Reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase type-A). They inhibit the action of MAO-A, and very slightly inhibit MAO-B. This is EXACTLY why drinking Caapi tea works so well as an anti-depressant.
as the article explains, high levels of MAO-A in the brain destroys key brain neurotransmitters, which causes depression, the alkaloids in Caapi bind to the MAO-A thus keeping it occupied and unable to destroy these important brain neurotransmitters!
Caapi does some amazing things. Truly it is a better AND MORE EFFECTIVE antidepressant than pharma antidepressants. I've been seeing a new commercial for some new antidepressant that you are supposed to add to the crap you are already taking. It claims that 2/3 people taking antidepressants are still suffering from symptoms (yeah they are trying to sell another pill to these poor people but it says a LOT about how effective SSRI's really are).
So between taking an SSRI which has poor results and so many side effects I won't list them here and drinking a tea from a plant that has been consumed for 100's if not 1000's of years without issue, I'll pick the tea EVERYTIME.
Caapi has no w/d symptoms
Caapi has no sexual side effects
Caapi has no reports of causing suicidal/homicidal thoughts or actions (VA Tech shooter to just name 1 of many)
Caapi does NOT shrink serotonin receptors, but rather helps the body create
more serotonin platelet receptors.
2 out of 3 daily Caapi drinkers do not complain of continued symptoms of
depression.
SSRIs/SNRI's cannot claim ANY of the above.
Antrocles I'm so glad to hear that the Caapi tea has been working for you. The longer you take it the less you will need and the greater the results will be. I do suggest taking at least a week break every month or so. Too much of anything is not good for you.
Yes, Harmala alkaloids in both Caapi and Rue are RIMA's (Reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase type-A). They inhibit the action of MAO-A, and very slightly inhibit MAO-B. This is EXACTLY why drinking Caapi tea works so well as an anti-depressant.
as the article explains, high levels of MAO-A in the brain destroys key brain neurotransmitters, which causes depression, the alkaloids in Caapi bind to the MAO-A thus keeping it occupied and unable to destroy these important brain neurotransmitters!
Caapi does some amazing things. Truly it is a better AND MORE EFFECTIVE antidepressant than pharma antidepressants. I've been seeing a new commercial for some new antidepressant that you are supposed to add to the crap you are already taking. It claims that 2/3 people taking antidepressants are still suffering from symptoms (yeah they are trying to sell another pill to these poor people but it says a LOT about how effective SSRI's really are).
So between taking an SSRI which has poor results and so many side effects I won't list them here and drinking a tea from a plant that has been consumed for 100's if not 1000's of years without issue, I'll pick the tea EVERYTIME.
Caapi has no w/d symptoms
Caapi has no sexual side effects
Caapi has no reports of causing suicidal/homicidal thoughts or actions (VA Tech shooter to just name 1 of many)
Caapi does NOT shrink serotonin receptors, but rather helps the body create
more serotonin platelet receptors.
2 out of 3 daily Caapi drinkers do not complain of continued symptoms of
depression.
SSRIs/SNRI's cannot claim ANY of the above.
Antrocles I'm so glad to hear that the Caapi tea has been working for you. The longer you take it the less you will need and the greater the results will be. I do suggest taking at least a week break every month or so. Too much of anything is not good for you.
roger that. i was gonna ask you at some point if it is ideal to cycle on/off with it....i've already noticed that in just a week's time i've gone from having about 4 cups a day down to 3 and now today i'm gonna have one in the morning and one at night....the spirit is in me now...
...yesterday's journey showed me as much.... :shock:
L&G!!
...yesterday's journey showed me as much.... :shock:
L&G!!
Yes, you should cycle the Caapi use. 4 weeks on 1 week off. You may find that you can take longer breaks and shorter amounts of time on...this is best...you want to find a sweet spot with Caapi. That comes with time though. The longer you use it, the better the results are.
Anyone thinking "taking Caapi daily could be dangerous" I'd like to simply remind them that when Currandero's of Brazil and Peru are still in training it is not uncommon AT ALL for them to drink Aya daily or even 2x a day, and these doses are 10x more than a Cuppa unreduced Caapi. When they dieta on a plant it is usually taken every day for weeks or even months.
As you are seeing first hand Caapi has a reverse tolerance...and yes, you've got the Spirit of Caapi in you, she's a wonderful plant. Just amazing on many levels.
Sorry for hijacking your thread burnt... I know this isn't a Caapi thread. Excelent find! Just another reason to say away from SSRI's and pick up some Caapi..it's cheaper anyways.
Anyone thinking "taking Caapi daily could be dangerous" I'd like to simply remind them that when Currandero's of Brazil and Peru are still in training it is not uncommon AT ALL for them to drink Aya daily or even 2x a day, and these doses are 10x more than a Cuppa unreduced Caapi. When they dieta on a plant it is usually taken every day for weeks or even months.
As you are seeing first hand Caapi has a reverse tolerance...and yes, you've got the Spirit of Caapi in you, she's a wonderful plant. Just amazing on many levels.
Sorry for hijacking your thread burnt... I know this isn't a Caapi thread. Excelent find! Just another reason to say away from SSRI's and pick up some Caapi..it's cheaper anyways.
69ron
Rising Star
acolon_5 said:
At some point B. caapi will be attacked by the pharmaceutical industry if this information gets too wide spread. B. caapi is their worst nightmare come true. It’s more effective than most of what the pharmaceutical industry manufactures for depression and often cheaper.
I personally think harmaloids should be re-looked at as anti depressant agents. However yea I understand that not everyone wants this stuff to be taken over by the pharmaceutical industry. To me as someone who's into this kind of drug development I find at fascinating that so many people are benefiting so much from these substances. I mean there are people out there who would like to develop acceptable drugs out of this stuff.
In a way I am kind of torn about the issue. Should modern medicine go through the process of developing pure compounds like harmine harmaline or THH as regular medicines? This could bring relief to millions of people.
But then you have the other side of the argument. Theres a plant source. Theres many plant sources. Many of these chemicals are easy to prepare. Many people have used them. Many cultures have used them. Do we even need to go through this process? In some ways we do but in other ways we don't. Does anyone else see the controversy over something like this?
Its difficult in some ways to decide whats the right way to go.
I find the whole issue a fascinating case of medical ethics versus practicality versus wow a whole outlook on medicine. What do you all think about it?
In a way I am kind of torn about the issue. Should modern medicine go through the process of developing pure compounds like harmine harmaline or THH as regular medicines? This could bring relief to millions of people.
But then you have the other side of the argument. Theres a plant source. Theres many plant sources. Many of these chemicals are easy to prepare. Many people have used them. Many cultures have used them. Do we even need to go through this process? In some ways we do but in other ways we don't. Does anyone else see the controversy over something like this?
Its difficult in some ways to decide whats the right way to go.
I find the whole issue a fascinating case of medical ethics versus practicality versus wow a whole outlook on medicine. What do you all think about it?
I am interested in this stuff as well..I am sopposed to write an essay for my herbology class on the future of medicine..and this is just one of the examples I intend on using..I think both sides need to less biased towards each other..the herbalists and the phara people..the stupid dogma and $$ fueled lies and conspiracies on both sides need to stop so we can really accept what works and get rid of what doesnt..and make real progress.
If caapi works then it should be valued among the medical communities as a legit anti depressant..it's sad that we have to almost hide these things, or keep them low key so that big pharam companies wont attack it with lies in fear that they may lose money on their ineffective medications..
And then in reverse becasue of situation like that people are weary..sick of being lied to so they distrust ALL pharma medicines..some of which are helpful..
The situation is discusting.
If caapi works then it should be valued among the medical communities as a legit anti depressant..it's sad that we have to almost hide these things, or keep them low key so that big pharam companies wont attack it with lies in fear that they may lose money on their ineffective medications..
And then in reverse becasue of situation like that people are weary..sick of being lied to so they distrust ALL pharma medicines..some of which are helpful..
The situation is discusting.
69ron
Rising Star
That's what BIG MONEY can do. Greed nearly always gets in the way of what's beneficial to mankind. It's so sad.
Look at all the money the NutraSweet company paid to keep stevia off the shelves. It took Coca Cola with all their cash to get stevia legalized for use as a sweetener. It was a financial battle that the makers of NutraSweet and Splenda were winning for a long time, until Coca Cola stepped in. As soon as Coca Cola stepped in, the FDA legalized it for use as a sweetener. It’s all about money. At least in the USA is it.
The problem with natural things is that they cannot be patented. After Coca Cola got stevia legalized, so many other stevia sellers benefited from it overnight. Most of which didn’t spend a penny trying to legalize it. Coca Cola’s main reason for getting stevia legalized was MONEY. Their diet sodas have been losing popularity because they contain NutraSweet, and other unnatural sweeteners, and the public is getting wise to it and not consuming them as much as they once did. Coca Cola figured if they could get stevia legalized, then they could put new life into their diet products.
It’s all about MONEY. If you have money you can get the FDA to do almost anything. They are not really there to protect YOU. They are their to protect BIG MONEY. They are bought and sold. I have no respect for that organization. The FDA is so corrupt. They should be dismantled.
If B. caapi becomes popular as an all natural anti-depressant, you can be sure the FDA will ban it because of pressure from the pharmaceutical manufactures who make a killing from their anti-depressant meds which they’ve spent billions on to get the FDA to approve. They aren’t about to let something natural and cheap eat into their profits. It’s sad. But that’s how it works in the USA.
Look at all the money the NutraSweet company paid to keep stevia off the shelves. It took Coca Cola with all their cash to get stevia legalized for use as a sweetener. It was a financial battle that the makers of NutraSweet and Splenda were winning for a long time, until Coca Cola stepped in. As soon as Coca Cola stepped in, the FDA legalized it for use as a sweetener. It’s all about money. At least in the USA is it.
The problem with natural things is that they cannot be patented. After Coca Cola got stevia legalized, so many other stevia sellers benefited from it overnight. Most of which didn’t spend a penny trying to legalize it. Coca Cola’s main reason for getting stevia legalized was MONEY. Their diet sodas have been losing popularity because they contain NutraSweet, and other unnatural sweeteners, and the public is getting wise to it and not consuming them as much as they once did. Coca Cola figured if they could get stevia legalized, then they could put new life into their diet products.
It’s all about MONEY. If you have money you can get the FDA to do almost anything. They are not really there to protect YOU. They are their to protect BIG MONEY. They are bought and sold. I have no respect for that organization. The FDA is so corrupt. They should be dismantled.
If B. caapi becomes popular as an all natural anti-depressant, you can be sure the FDA will ban it because of pressure from the pharmaceutical manufactures who make a killing from their anti-depressant meds which they’ve spent billions on to get the FDA to approve. They aren’t about to let something natural and cheap eat into their profits. It’s sad. But that’s how it works in the USA.
the irony here is that i am using caapi now to UNDO the damage done to my brain from 5 years of lexapro....a big, fat, fucking pharmaceutical SSRI nightmare. though i 110% believe that i will not only undo any damage done, but IMPROVE my brain over time with continued use of caapi and other natural plant medicines, it still saddens me that your average fellow human in this world will have NO CLUE that these natural options are even out there.
it's like an evil empire has got a strangle-hold on the majority of humanity....only those willing to take action and actively search for a way out of the miasm will be saved. maybe this will prove to be a sort of "natural selection" for the not-so-distant future race of humanity.... ??
damn i'm sounding all nostradamus now.... :lol:
great thread guys....very good points all around!
L&G!!
it's like an evil empire has got a strangle-hold on the majority of humanity....only those willing to take action and actively search for a way out of the miasm will be saved. maybe this will prove to be a sort of "natural selection" for the not-so-distant future race of humanity.... ??
damn i'm sounding all nostradamus now.... :lol:
great thread guys....very good points all around!
L&G!!
It's things like this that make me think I would be more than happy to simply pack up and move to portugal...
"it's like an evil empire has got a strangle-hold on the majority of humanity"
I would like to always remain optimistic but there are many days when that is exactly how I see it..I get tired to trying to explain this stuff to the strait people in my life..their level of naiveness could seriousily be what kills them...the things I see people eat and the way they stress over rediculous things, the lies they believe..it can't be good..and I do wonder what natural selection has in store..
"it's like an evil empire has got a strangle-hold on the majority of humanity"
I would like to always remain optimistic but there are many days when that is exactly how I see it..I get tired to trying to explain this stuff to the strait people in my life..their level of naiveness could seriousily be what kills them...the things I see people eat and the way they stress over rediculous things, the lies they believe..it can't be good..and I do wonder what natural selection has in store..
If someone could get permission to do a clinical trial in humans you could prove that it works. All it takes is funding and a good clear plan and preliminary data.
The question then becomes pure compound or mixture? B. caapi cannot be patented because of its traditional use. But a formulation of a pure compound from B. caapi could technically be patentable. This could encourage investment. Also I think to protect natural sources of B. caapi that pure compounds should be used too. If millions of people were potentially going to take it.
I hate the patent game too but its what gets drugs approved sad to say but its true. There would be opposition from other companies but screw em. If you produce good data no one can defeat you. Look at whats happening with marijuana and cannabinoids. The data is rock solid. No one can argue with it anymore. The AMA wants to reschedule marijuana because of this.
Science can PROVE it works and then what can they do?
I think the problem with drugs from these plants would cause two problems. Opposition from indingenous cultures as well as opposition from other companies. Thats why I think the pure compound route is the best way to go. Companies might see the value and maybe want to invest and shamans couldn't say shit.
The question then becomes pure compound or mixture? B. caapi cannot be patented because of its traditional use. But a formulation of a pure compound from B. caapi could technically be patentable. This could encourage investment. Also I think to protect natural sources of B. caapi that pure compounds should be used too. If millions of people were potentially going to take it.
I hate the patent game too but its what gets drugs approved sad to say but its true. There would be opposition from other companies but screw em. If you produce good data no one can defeat you. Look at whats happening with marijuana and cannabinoids. The data is rock solid. No one can argue with it anymore. The AMA wants to reschedule marijuana because of this.
Science can PROVE it works and then what can they do?
I think the problem with drugs from these plants would cause two problems. Opposition from indingenous cultures as well as opposition from other companies. Thats why I think the pure compound route is the best way to go. Companies might see the value and maybe want to invest and shamans couldn't say shit.
Hmmmm.....could be something to that....
i'm a professional cyclist myself and i have, over the course of the past 4 years, forced myself to change my diet despite my 30+ hours a week of training. my carbs all come from vegetables (very little fruit) and quality protein sources (eggs, fish and ocassionally lamb). no gluten-containing grains (just rice and corn for me) and a conscious avoidance of sugar.
over the last 4 years, i have weaned myself almost completely off of sugar.
for a year prior to this change and all throughout it, i was on lexapro. five years in total. when i decided to come off it a year ago, i did so gradually and carefully. i am now completely off and will never go back.
the diet, i believe, was a HUGE part of my success in breaking free from the shackles of SSRIs. now, with the additon of my daily caapi brews, it's not so much that they are my new anti-depressants....i am stable now. i still have hard days...but i was well and truly immobilized by depression after my dad died 5 years ago.....but now i am good...and able to function. i have been in therapy consistently this whole time as well. anyone who is not truly "using" their anti-depressant to allow them to activiely WORK on themselves is really just in for a life-long addiciton and no change to their real problem...
i truly believe caapi is a wonderful medicine and that, over time working with it, i will not only undo any damage...but IMPROVE my brain. that being said, i still think it's important to have a "wholistic" approach to helping yourself if you suffer from depression. diet, exercise, talking to someone who can help you work through those things that "bring you down"....and all the while using caapi to solidify this progress....that's how i envision it's use.
or at least, that's how i have been using it....
much love and gratitude!!
i'm a professional cyclist myself and i have, over the course of the past 4 years, forced myself to change my diet despite my 30+ hours a week of training. my carbs all come from vegetables (very little fruit) and quality protein sources (eggs, fish and ocassionally lamb). no gluten-containing grains (just rice and corn for me) and a conscious avoidance of sugar.
over the last 4 years, i have weaned myself almost completely off of sugar.
for a year prior to this change and all throughout it, i was on lexapro. five years in total. when i decided to come off it a year ago, i did so gradually and carefully. i am now completely off and will never go back.
the diet, i believe, was a HUGE part of my success in breaking free from the shackles of SSRIs. now, with the additon of my daily caapi brews, it's not so much that they are my new anti-depressants....i am stable now. i still have hard days...but i was well and truly immobilized by depression after my dad died 5 years ago.....but now i am good...and able to function. i have been in therapy consistently this whole time as well. anyone who is not truly "using" their anti-depressant to allow them to activiely WORK on themselves is really just in for a life-long addiciton and no change to their real problem...
i truly believe caapi is a wonderful medicine and that, over time working with it, i will not only undo any damage...but IMPROVE my brain. that being said, i still think it's important to have a "wholistic" approach to helping yourself if you suffer from depression. diet, exercise, talking to someone who can help you work through those things that "bring you down"....and all the while using caapi to solidify this progress....that's how i envision it's use.
or at least, that's how i have been using it....
much love and gratitude!!
I don't trust the FDA at all. Too many harmful drugs have slipped through their money filled hands. I don't trust ANY new mediciation until it has been on the market over 5 years, and even then I am weary.
As long as I can get my Caapi and brew my tea. I'd actually rather big pharma just stayed away from it. Over harvesting, importation limitis, and a huge increase in price will happen if pharma wants in on the Caapi healing. Why don't they just pass monoclobromide (sp) over in the US, or make new short acting MAOI's? They seem to have some of the benefits of Caapi without the food restrictions.
As long as I can get my Caapi and brew my tea. I'd actually rather big pharma just stayed away from it. Over harvesting, importation limitis, and a huge increase in price will happen if pharma wants in on the Caapi healing. Why don't they just pass monoclobromide (sp) over in the US, or make new short acting MAOI's? They seem to have some of the benefits of Caapi without the food restrictions.
Possibly, but it is shorter acting when smoked.
The idea is to build up the MAOI's in your bloodstream with 2x daily ingestion of Caapi tea. You would need to smoke harmala's multiple times a day to achieve the same effect, yes you would need less, but I think it might be less effective that way.
Plus, I have been told that not all harmala's can be vaporized. I'm not 100% sure how accurate this is, but if THH is not vaporizable then sublingual or oral is the only way to go to get the full effects.
Also there is something very different about ACTUAL Caapi tea. I'm not sure if you can truly achieve this with smoked alkaloids.
The idea is to build up the MAOI's in your bloodstream with 2x daily ingestion of Caapi tea. You would need to smoke harmala's multiple times a day to achieve the same effect, yes you would need less, but I think it might be less effective that way.
Plus, I have been told that not all harmala's can be vaporized. I'm not 100% sure how accurate this is, but if THH is not vaporizable then sublingual or oral is the only way to go to get the full effects.
Also there is something very different about ACTUAL Caapi tea. I'm not sure if you can truly achieve this with smoked alkaloids.
balaganist
Rising Star
Really interesting and pertinent discussion.
The past couple weeks I have been drinking Caapi tea, not every day but here and there. Cant say if its making a difference but it does feel good to drink anyway. I am also drinking Aya every couple weeks or so atm.
I very much believe also that it is one of nature's great anti-depressants, amongst other things.
It is scary the hold Big Pharma has on our society. I think Burnt is right, it may be better to promote it as compounds, for the west anyway, as with the growing popularity of Ayahuasca coupled with the potential popularity of Caapi as a natural anti-depressant, supplies of the plant could start to get scarce.
The past couple weeks I have been drinking Caapi tea, not every day but here and there. Cant say if its making a difference but it does feel good to drink anyway. I am also drinking Aya every couple weeks or so atm.
I very much believe also that it is one of nature's great anti-depressants, amongst other things.
It is scary the hold Big Pharma has on our society. I think Burnt is right, it may be better to promote it as compounds, for the west anyway, as with the growing popularity of Ayahuasca coupled with the potential popularity of Caapi as a natural anti-depressant, supplies of the plant could start to get scarce.
balaganist said:
Are you dealing with depression issues? I've found that Caapi won't boost one up past their normal level of contentness, but will help if there is depression already present.
I'm not sure that Caapi is really used much outside of a very small subgroup of people (outside of its long history of use in S. America). Outside of this forum and Ayahausca forums I haven't seen anyone really talking about it very much. I'm not sure we can say it is popular yet. You are right though, the potential is there.
This is a good thing and a bad thing. I'd love to see people hooked on destructive antidepressants switch to Caapi and start HEALING themselves, not just putting a band-aid on the symptoms, but I also don't want the demand to rise so quickly that supply becomes short, forcing the price sky high and having spotty availabilty of an herb that has been so helpful in my life.
I have a friend who's been on lexapro (I think) 6 years. Poor girl didn't know any better, and has taken quite a cocktail of pharma over the years. Under 25, already had cancer. Last time I heard from her she was on MDMA and she called me and I have never heard someone so...insane...
like I couldn't even make out what her jumbled sentences meant at all. I can't imagine that combining those two chemicals has a + effect on the nervous system...
*sigh*
Walking around downtown, older women dancing with street poles. .
May I suggest that everyone who is working with this vine grow some for future medicine....blessed be..
like I couldn't even make out what her jumbled sentences meant at all. I can't imagine that combining those two chemicals has a + effect on the nervous system...
*sigh*
Walking around downtown, older women dancing with street poles. .
May I suggest that everyone who is working with this vine grow some for future medicine....blessed be..
^ That is very sad indeed. I've just heard too many stories, and unfortunately had some firsthand experiences with these poisons they call medicine.
I'm really surpirised and confused why they continue to prescribe these things. I really believe that most psyciatrists just dont' know the extent of damage SSRI's can cause on people taking them for long periods of time.
I'm really surpirised and confused why they continue to prescribe these things. I really believe that most psyciatrists just dont' know the extent of damage SSRI's can cause on people taking them for long periods of time.
Astralking
Rising Star
Very very good thread. Out of curiousity, how much caapi do you use in your brew for it's anti depressant effects? just wondering if its the same amount as an aya brew.
After reading this i am postive i want to get some of my friends who are taking anti depressants to try caapi. How do you guys go about making it for this use?
After reading this i am postive i want to get some of my friends who are taking anti depressants to try caapi. How do you guys go about making it for this use?