Max Ion Questions

[Truth Seeker]

Hello, I've been researching the Max Ion Tek more in depth and I have a couple questions I can't seem to find an answer to. I'm trying to learn, but perhaps I'm just too meticulous...

1. Cybs Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek...Designed for newbies. - STB - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus On post #125 Cyb says a freeze/thaw in acidic solution can achieve greater cell lysis. I have read every post about this and some say it helps, others disagree; I can't seem to find a definitive answer. Does this improve cell lysis or is it just theory?

2. Cybs Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek...Designed for newbies. - STB - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus On post #35 Cyb says, "I have since learned that it can take anything up to a day to fully break all the cell walls with lye alone...." Are there any potential benefits to increasing the length of the basification/heat bath for a day? (I'd assume day=24 hours???) If so, why does the tek only state to perform this for 2 hours? Most of the posts I find pertaining to this are for STB Teks and not the Max Ion Tek.

3. Salt increasing yields - STB - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus This post is about achieving higher valence ions using phosphoric acid instead of vinegar, as well as using other salts in conjunction with NaCl. Has anyone had any luck proving the phosphoric acid and/or other salts to be more effective?

 

[Brennendes Wasser]

1. In theory it should definetly damage the cell integrity, so this should in theory definetly increase the speed in which DMT is absorbed. Also maybe some parts of the bark aren't accessible by solvent during the "short" time of extractions one does and by freeze-thaw you would generate pathways through the cellular structure at micron level.

BUT it turns out you simply dont need it, or at least just a test without Freeze-Thaw also yielded the (probably) max yield.

Cooking your bark for 2 h in acidic water will definetly also either lyse the cells well enough or it is not needed at all, so if the cook would not lyse it, it would then also not matter.

As it is a step where you dont do anything, I would say just do it. Then you can think for yourself that you did not do something that could IN THEORY decrease yield. Then in some future you may try it without freeze-thaw with your personal route and then you can decide on your own.
But doing it with an acidic cook for 2 h seems to make it not needed. Still, go find out yourself :surprised :thumb_up:

2. So you mean: a person told that this high increase of time would help to achieve a full break-up of cells and you want to know if going longer would be even better for yield?
Well as told above with NO freeze-thaw and only a cook of 2 h you will already get best results. This is only regarding an A/B method, but as Cyb's is A/B I guess that is all that you would need to hear. Still strange that this person tells this, as all the STB methods use just a duration in the low hour range and so I guess there is either no problem of not lysing them to the max or the person is just wrong and the shorter durations of other people already achieve the max lysed status. Still, only relevant for A/B.

3. In theory water with ions dissolved should make hydrophobe components migrate faster into any other NPS. Also the solubility should be even lower. This could in theory also accelerate phase separation with the NPS. But Ionic Strength of the water is already insane when being fully saturated NaCl so I doubt that there is any difference.
But just saying you will also get the "full yield" when not salting it. As told, it is debatable if this effect even helps, not judging that it is not working. But maybe the process is already so effective without salts, that it is just hindered by other factors to not migrate instantly - hence taking multiple pulls - and therefore adding salt can not overcome these other factors and ultimately does not make any difference for the process. It was told by other people in that thread that it increases yield, but when you do it more often and also without salting you will notice that you will get the same yield, just with fluctiations on both sides from time to time.
A problem even arises: if you concentrated your soup prior to pulling with the NPS, then you may even precipitate stuff because of the NaCl. This will form a sirup to goo that will make any liquid-liquid extraction impossible. That way you could even ruin it :/

It would be super easy to verify it its working indeed or not:

Dissolve like 100 mg DMT in 50 ml Vinegar, basify with a few g Soda. Do this 2x, then add the amount of salt to 1 of these, which is given in the TEK calculated down to 50 ml.

Then add 20 ml Naphtha and stirr both mixtures the same time, but with a magnetic stirrer at the same speed. Then after freeze precipitation you could directly tell the difference. You could even only use 10 ml Naphtha and pour it over in a vessel with less than 10 g. Then you can directly weigh it with the common mg-scale which has a max weight of around 20,5 g. Then you could directly tell the difference with a high degree of accuracy.

In summary I would say try it with the salt given by the TEK (Phosphate etc. should make no observable difference) and then after some time try without it and check the differnece.
My opinion: Leaving the freeze-precip step and the salting step will still make you able to get the max yield. :thumb_up:

 

[Truth Seeker]

Thank you for the very detailed reply Brennendes Wasser, much appreciated and very helpful! :thumb_up:

Perhaps you're right; these extra steps may be unnecessary, maybe the max yield is already attained by this tek as is. It's just, I read that there may be a theoretical 3% yield from this tek and I find that motivational!