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MDMA Cumulative Neurotoxicity

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OneIsEros

OneIsEros

Rising Star
A report of a common story, a simple reminder.

I pushed responsible irresponsible MDMA use to the max.

150 mg 100% pure ammonia washed MDMA crystals, followed by a 75 mg redose 1.5 hours in, once every 3 months, often in conjunction with high quality LSD, for three years.

It was a wonderful three years, 12 experiences overall.

I then took a three year break, and dosed. Another three year break and dosed. And then one last time after a further three year abstinence, only using classical psychedelics.

I have never felt “come down blues”. Some sad yearning from the joy was slipping away while coming down, but never the infamous hangover. But, those three times, three years apart, each did not hold a candle to the “love rush” of the first 12 experiences. This was more akin to a small love glimmer, with amphetamine overtones.

Everyone’s biology varies with this compound, but this has been my experience. I will never take it again simply because it does not bring reward and will stick with classical psychedelic compounds that do not have this problem.

While I am mildly perturbed by the seemingly permanent absence this has revealed in my neurochemistry, it also leads me to ponder the shallowness of the MDMA pockets. MDMA elicits cosmetic features of the DMT-oriented serotonergic brain system - features of love - but while these pockets can have antibiotic-like psychotherapeutic value - love is evidently far deeper than MDMA. I have found much deeper connection with love on ayahuasca, which always leaves me feeling almost like the opposite of MDMA - as though I had given my brain a kale shake.

Notes from the underground of snobby drug nerd connoseuirs, lol.
 
Ive heard before that MDMA is like a candle, you can only use it so much before it burns out, does seem to be a common experience.
Not sure if neurotoxicty is the culprit, though MDMAs toxic effects on the brain are well documented.
 
I really do think of it like an antibiotic now. Classical psychedelics (DMT, harmalas, psilocybin, mescaline, LSD) don’t lose efficacy the way entactogens like MDMA do, they can be used in skillful yogic/shamanic contexts with increasing skill and depth - while MDMA and entactogens generally now I think of as something it would probably be best to approach for a specific intentional therapeutic reason, rather than just for recreation. Like an antibiotic, abuse of it may leave you unable to make good use of an effective medicine when you need it later.

If someone did want to use MDMA regularly throughout their life I’d say once a year would be better. At least then you’ll get 12 years instead of 3 years out of it ;)
 
Although i know people who could easily take way more than what you ingested, and way more often as well, and still be totally fine, i personally think 225 mg is actually an awfull lot.

With many psychedelic substances, i feel that there is often something to gain if you take larger amounts. But i never felt this way about MDMA. I never felt the need to go beyond 120 mg.

So i personally find that the doses you took where realy quite large indeed. But that does not nessecarily mean that what you experience is the result of neurotoxicity.

I think that part of the magic of first experiences in general, is the novelty of it itself. You can probably never realy recreate that.

With many psychedelics, i found that by upping the doses, i could enter new realms. And so the novelty in a sense remained. But even then, taking a break every now and then, is probably a good thing not just because of integration but also for preserving the novelty of it.

MDMA is something with a greater potential for abuse than most classic psychedelics, and everything indicates that it is much more harmfull as well. That MDMA can be neurotoxic if used excessively is something that has been proven and some neuroscientists believe it even may be neurotoxic in fairly moderate doses.

But the brain has a high degree of plasticity, and believing you have braindamage from MDMA neurotoxicity is also something that could easily elicit a nocebo effect.

I would say the novelty just wore off and you moved on.
 
You know someone's lost the magic when they start putting it in chemical terms.

Absolutely with you on the Ayahuasca front, kale shake and all. 😁
 
It just so happens to MDMA is a quite shallow experience.
I would describe the feelings as faking the fake feeling of euphoria. I have experienced much deeper layers of euphoria from other substances - a great example IME are 2C-B, mescaline and syrian rue (harmala is not a classical psychedelic strictly speaking).

Classical psychedelics are the way to go. However don't think it's not possible to experience the fried brain/nerves with those as well.

These days I tend to think that people give way to much credit to psychedelics, although it's now well established they have some desirable benefits for users. Context is king for psychedelic use, my friend. Drug is only the less important part of the story in psychedelic healing - context is king.

Just my opinion.

Have a great day!
 
Triglav said:
These days I tend to think that people give way to much credit to psychedelics, although it's now well established they have some desirable benefits for users. Context is king for psychedelic use, my friend. Drug is only the less important part of the story in psychedelic healing - context is king.

Just my opinion.

Have a great day!
Click to expand...

Your opinion is fact, my friend.
 
While I don't take MDMA anymore due to it precipitating heavier depressive states, it's been shown to have high degree of therapeutic value when facilitated in a correct manner...

Opinions are opinions. If one is mistaking that then one is too invested in the appearance of their own convictions...imo

Eh, to each their own...

One love
 
OneIsEros said:
Nope, it’s physically different.
Click to expand...
One of the reasons why it feels different, could be, that MDMA itself has changed over the years.

Different isomers of MDMA, have different effects. Just like with every other substance.
But the ratio between isomers of MDMA could have changed because of the different chemicals that are being used today to synthesize MDMA.

You are not the first person to say that MDMA used to feel different in the past.

It could be the result of neurotoxicity. But there could be other reasons as well.
 
dragonrider said:
One of the reasons why it feels different, could be, that MDMA itself has changed over the years.

Different isomers of MDMA, have different effects. Just like with every other substance.
But the ratio between isomers of MDMA could have changed because of the different chemicals that are being used today to synthesize MDMA.

You are not the first person to say that MDMA used to feel different in the past.

It could be the result of neurotoxicity. But there could be other reasons as well.
Click to expand...


Hmm, I remember loosely a documentary where some old heads said how good and strong the mdma in the 80's was, and the drug expert said to them: "no, it is only your brain chemistry that wasn't aware of this molecule and made you awesome first experiences. Today's mdma is as good and as strong as then, but your minds are now habituated to it. "

Something like this.

It is not easy to have a long-term relationship with this molecule. When you get too used to it, it becomes strangely different. But since now, several long pauses for reuptacking natural neurotransmitters worked for me to keep the kind of wonder, this experience can provide from time to time.
 
This could be the result of you getting older, having had too many late nights (😁), having a different diet, etc. etc.



It's extremely unlikely that a different synthesis methods would affect the balance of optical isomers unless they were specifically designed to do so.
 
DISCLAIMER: I am not advocating taking ANY drugs, especially not ALL OF THEM or the obviously horrible ones.

OK, as much as I hate to reign in on a thread of much agreement, I have a vastly different experience, or shall we say relationship with my brain chemistry; which I will attempt to analyse as I write this (DAMN NEXUS WHY YOU LIKE MY SHRINK??!! LOL).

First took ecstasy when I was 17, now 24 years ago (OMG!). Obviously loved it. [although THC/CBD, Nicotine and Ethanol were my first experiences a few years earlier]

Long story short: I became a psychonaut (and unfortunately later a drug addict).

To date I have tried over 70 different psychotropic chemicals.
I mention this because one of my psychiatrists said taking a variety of drugs a little is better than taking any ONE thing ALOT (this is a seriously respected/specifically into novel-substance addiction and harm-reduction guy, who actually wrote a book they all use on the subject).
This makes sense to me, as I make the analogy of a well oiled car rather than someone hammering nitrous into an engine till it breaks!

I have had, I will freely admit, horrible times in my life and have schizophrenia (diagnosed after 6 months abstinence from everything but nicotine and caffeine [and psych-meds] as per the psychiatric rule book), so please don't take anything I say as advocating my lifestyle will make you happy

...

BUT

I read about neurotoxicity.

I also hammered many many times [and weeks] (until literally twitching and shaking and crying in my room for two days) crystal meth.

I was addicted to crack and coke for years, and I liked HUUUUUGEEE hits.

I was a heroin addict (had to have some way to come down from all the other shit).

And all along I did all the club stuff, hallucinogens and more.

At one point I would go to raves on an average of 6 or 7 drugs at once, the funny thing being it became a problem in logistics to get all the gear I'd need for any given weekend!

Once I did a 2 gram line of a mixture of MDMA/MPA/MDAI/4-MMC!

I have obviously had comedowns.

Worst was crystal: literally a week of nastiness.
And one time something called 4F-MPH, an analogue of Ritalin, which left me for two days feeling like I'd permanently rinsed a part of my brain, and would feel BAD down forever. Strangely 1. it passed after a super hyped pep talk from a friend of mine and 2. of all of us who took that stuff only half had this effect, the other half said they had no real comedown at all!

HOWEVER...

I currently managed to quit everything but the odd K, 4-MMC, Amphetamine Sulphate, MDMA, LSD and Nitrous, but usually once a week only (and not all at once).

I also quit smoking (which I was a bad addict of).

I do get tired quicker than normal people, something which another doctor thinks could be a congenital low level of endorphins, possibly what made opiates attractive (and addictive) in the first place.

I'm now married and have a baby who is the light of my life.

I certainly don't advocate taking loads of drugs, in fact I want to teach to my son the opposite, with a dose of realism obviously.

But as far as neurotoxicity goes I should have melted my levels LONG LONG LONG ago.

I think neuroplasticity is a thing and I think it extends to chemicals. The brain is a dynamic machine both structurally and chemically, that's how it works.

It's possibly an error in logic to assume scaling up rat neurotoxicity experiments to the level of human neuroanatomy will yield the same outcomes?

Or maybe I'm some weird exception to the rules? (but I know in my heart this is not true)

I'm not saying what happened to all you before me in the thread is invalid, everyone finds life differently and experiences it in different ways.

When I take a stimulant I expect a comedown: this makes sense.

But I (personally) don't find the effect cumulative and neither do my MDMA using friends.

I not a troll I promise, but had to play devils advocate as this is my truth.

PEACE

LOVE

ONE

5D

PS: why would take drugs if you don't need to kids?
 
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