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MDMA vs natural psychs?

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DMaTeo

DMaTeo

Rising Star
i just returned from a big rave this weekend where SWIM did some mdma. had an absolutely amazing time on it but it was accompanied by its usual share of negative effects as molly usually is (comedown, chemical feeling, lockjaw, and i always get depressed afterward thinking about the damage i caused my body and because of my now-depleted serotonin and dopamine levels lol)

anyways my question to those out there with a little more info on the brain and how mdma affects it i would like to know:

how does mdma differ in its effect on the brain compared to natural hallucinogenics such as mescaline psylocybin, dmt etc. i know mescaline and mdma are closer in relation than psylocybin and dmt are? i know dmt and psylicybin are in the tryptamine family and that makes them closely similar to brain receptor and release sites and maybe that makes them less harmful? is the same applicable for mescaline?

i am not asking about how the drugs make you feel but more about how it affects and can possibly damage your brain. also have heard a great deal about how mescaline gives many of the same effects of mdma although a more psychedelic but without tolerance or nerotoxicity issues. if this is true and its is actually better i would most likely stop never take mdma again and take mescaline for raves instead.

i was always convinced that natural drugs have less of a harmful effect on the body and brain and thought it was true for psychedelics as well. i have done mushrooms and dmt countless times and have had two beautiful aya experiences and appreciate natural substances much more than some lab-created molecule made by humans. for this reason ive only taken mdma three times in my life and have never taken another synthetic sbstance.

am i just naive and they are all bad in their own way? or have most of the reports i read hold true and the natural psychedelics are definitely a safer alternative to the seemingly unsafe mdma?

c
 
im definitely starting to believe that from everything ive read and im eager to try mescaline :) but id really like to know more about the health aspect of it
 
how does mdma differ in its effect on the brain compared to natural hallucinogenics such as mescaline psylocybin, dmt etc
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classical psychedelics, along with the more recently synthesized novel psychedelics affect the brain very differently than mdma does.

psychedelics agonize various serotonin receptors (in the case of mescaline or lsd its a bit more complicated than just serotonin though), and have a very wide safety profile in regards to ED50 (effective dose for 50% of people), and how far away that is from LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of people). Also neurotoxicity is almost unheard of in regards to psychedelics, even in heavy doses.

But remember they are all different in how they affect the brain, as to what receptors they hit, how/if they interact with mao enzymes and the implications of such. The newer synthetic ones should be treated especially carefully as theres a pile of research and historical evidence as to the safety of natural psychedelics, where as almost none for the creations of sasha and other pioneers on the frontier of new psychedelic drug discovery. They do not intent, for the most part, for these things to make it out into the wild and on to the blackmarket, as it often leads to legal crackdowns that inhibit scientific research about them, which is what they are all about.

Mdma is a neurotransmitter releaser just like all other amphetamines. They are all neurotoxic in doses not too far away from effective doses, sometimes still neurotoxic at effective doses. the ED50 and LD50 values are much closer as well. Mdma also has mao-i properties, making it even more neurotoxic than if it was just a simple sert/dopamine/norephenephrine releaser. The neurotoxicity is associated with too high levels of endogenous neurotransmitters being released, and not metabolized quickly enough, leading to damage to the brains tryptamine/phenethylamine receptors/systems, and in some case permanent receptor damage or death of the cell is a result of amphetamine use, mdma or otherwise.

However, in the right hands they can both be used safely with great efficacy as psychotherapy tools. Sadly, with mdma thats almost never the case, and damage is done much more often/heavily than people like to think imho. Prohibition of it, and the blackmarket conditions deserve some of that blame though, pressed pills, impurities, rc fakes, and all.

In any case, your far better off using psychedelics, natural ones especially, if your concerned about the health affects of doing so in regards to mdma vs mescaline or psychedelics in general.

Hope this is easy to understand, and answered your question :p :lol:
 
MDMA isn´t realy a hallucinogen. It´s a euphoriant. Hallucinogens are like a totally different world. Euphoriants are nice, but shallow. It´s just fun and not much more. Real psychedelic´s on the other hand.....

This is how i see it: Euphoriants make you experience 'fun'. Psychedelics will make you experience 'life'.
 
polytrip said:
MDMA isn´t realy a hallucinogen. It´s a euphoriant. Hallucinogens are like a totally different world. Euphoriants are nice, but shallow. It´s just fun and not much more. Real psychedelic´s on the other hand.....

This is how i see it: Euphoriants make you experience 'fun'. Psychedelics will make you experience 'life'.
Click to expand...

There are many psychotherapists who would disagree with your take on MDMA.
 
thanks guys alot of good info. exactly the answer i was looking for day tripper thanks alot man.
 
soulfood said:
This sounds dumb but for me...

Psychedelics = Medicine
MDMA = Medication.
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mmmm.....MDMA and Psychadelics have their uses for treatment of various psychiatric conditions, that means that they are all medicine..As long as used in correct dose, set, setting.:p
 
I said it sounded dumb. They practically mean the same thing.

MDMA impairs my cognitive capacity, but it reduces anxiety at reasonable doses.

DMT/Mushrooms/LSD increase my cognitive capacity but can increase anxiety at any dose.
Mescaline seems to give me the best of both worlds at low doses, but only seems effective in the sense of other hallucinogens at near breakthrough doses.

Ask me my opinion 10 years ago and I may have found MDMA to ne more useful, but the fact remains it can only take me so far. The capacity for potential with classic psychedelic hallucinogens however, seems limitless.
 
Soulfood, i was referring to the "medicine" part of your post.

It is considered by MAPS, anyhow, that MDMA and psychs do have uses for treating Psychological conditions. I guess that means that once you have understood and released a problem, that you should then be fine, unaided. Medicinal would refer to a sort of occasional maintanence of the condition, or service. And i'm sure that any of them would do, but as we are all different, YMMV.
 
I like MDMA but it's too taxing.. it takes some time until I feel normal again (weeks).

Increasingly, I find it less and less rewarding, and presently after a good experience some weeks ago I'm staying away from it for at least half a year, maybe more.


The reports about mescaline sound interesting, definitely something to explore in the future.
 
i definitely agree that mdma is too taxing. mescaline sounds extremely interesting but would like to work with it on a personal level first before trying it in the context that i have tried mdma in.
 
After mescaline I feel no need to ever do MDMA again...it's not even in the same league in my opinion.

Mescaline is just divine. By far my favorite psychedelic to do in public. It's good in low, medium and high doses.

Peace
 
joedirt said:
After mescaline I feel no need to ever do MDMA again...it's not even in the same league in my opinion.

Mescaline is just divine. By far my favorite psychedelic to do in public. It's good in low, medium and high doses.

Peace
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I strongly agree. Strongly :)
 
Benzyme wrote...


let me just respond with a simple equation:

mescaline > mdma
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Some things cannot be summarized with a simple equation, this must be one of those things.

Mescaline and MDMA may look similar under a microscope or whatever but when you actually ingest them the effects greatly differ. In fact out of all the 2c analogues I would say that MDA and MDMA are the LEAST like mescaline. To site one major difference the comedown from mescaline is pretty much identical to a LSD comedown, where as the ONLY thing I have experienced that even comes close to a come down from a high dose MOLLY experience would be raw amphetamines.

I have taken ecstasy in both pure and impure forms on several dozen occasions, I was really into it at one point of my life, I remember thinking that mushrooms and ecstasy combined was the ultimate thing...

I do in fact believe that MDMA has real medicinal value for the severely depressed and mentally ill. I have found through trial and error however that nothing compares to the medicinal benefits of Ayahuasca, not even mescaline, unless of course you combine the two....
=====================================================================================

I recently wrote a trip report about MDMA. It explains and how and why I decided to opt for Ayahuasca instead of ecstasy in my life, you may find it interesting.

My word is all I have/An Ayahuasca lesson I learned the hard way - DMT Experiences - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
 
The fact remains there are certain subjects that classic psychedelics would make their problem worse.

Trying to get someone to talk about an event so horrifying on LSD would probably send a person catatonic. MDMA would probably stand a better chance.

I however am not one of those people. For my purposes mescaline is much more side effect free, so it depends on the set.

The OP brings up this subject on returning from a party, so I don't think the therapeutic values apply as directly to this situation.
 
Mister_Niles said:
polytrip said:
MDMA isn´t realy a hallucinogen. It´s a euphoriant. Hallucinogens are like a totally different world. Euphoriants are nice, but shallow. It´s just fun and not much more. Real psychedelic´s on the other hand.....

This is how i see it: Euphoriants make you experience 'fun'. Psychedelics will make you experience 'life'.
Click to expand...

There are many psychotherapists who would disagree with your take on MDMA.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with both of these statements. In my experiences, MDMA has been euphoric, but empty.

However, I have read about, and can imagine how MDMA could be a very useful tool for certain mental illnesses.

I tend to learn more by having my entire world ripped apart, and being pushed outside my comfort zone. People who have already had their world ripped apart in THIS reality, may need to experience the healing and love MDMA can offer, just so they can realize that it is still possible to feel happiness.

To each their own. We are all struggling, searching, and growing.
 
MDMA is very useful when you need specifically an emotional opening (like, say, couple's therapy or PTSD), without challenging psychological experiences that can be a part of psychedelics.

That being said, I also think personally it's way too shallow, and I agree that being pushed outside the comfort zone with psychedelics is a great learning experience for me (for some they might not yet be ready for it). Another thing is that it def takes it's toll on the body/brain, much less benign physically than psychedelics.

I think mescaline is indeed excellent and for me, low/mid doses display the good parts of MDMA (emotional opening, euphoria and empathy) without the bad parts, and in general it doesn't seem challenging or offering the psychological struggles that can be present with high doses or some other psychedelics. Not sure how well low dose mescaline would do if substituting MDMA for those specific therapeutic uses mentioned above but my feeling is it would do very well.
 
I wouldn't usually say any hallucinogen should even be compared to MDMA, since it is not considered a hallucinogen at the standard dose, although higher doses and mixes can cause some hallucinations. Many reports of MDMA 'buzz' vs the mescaline feeling seem quite contradictory or vague. Never know until you try ;).

I have not tried mescaline, but personally Ive never felt any similarity between MDMA and other chemicals besides MDAI. The audio effects and euphoria are far more prominent than anything I have experienced on hallucinogens. Acid has more of an effect on the audio than mushrooms however.

The thing I like best about it is the assurance of a good time ;) Not something I've experienced lately with psychedelics. Although they can make a wonderful night even better, can just as easily ruin it, even with careful doses.

Good clean MDMA = damn fine chem.
 
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