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mescaline sulfate - questions

FractAlien

Esteemed member
825g of green pulp with skin and bones in 5 liters of water and 800g of NaOH.

5 pulls of 200ml of xylene were made. And then 5 pulls with 100ml of 35% sulfuric acid solution.

When I salted it with sulfuric acid, my funnel that I bought as "stainless steel" peeled and turned black!

This made me a little worried. I plan to evaporate the acid water, dry it and wash it with methanol. Would this be able to clean any excess sulfuric acid?

As for evaporating the acid water, can I evaporate it under heat? I plan to use a cup heater (-+60°C).
 
Mmm, Steanless is bettes, but acid still reacts with metal i believe?!

Which TEK did you use? I think there is no one that says pull with 35% sulfuric. it's one of the strongest acid. It's no acetic acid.

I still use a TEK from Litmus who changed his name to An1cca. Beautifull TEK, from the Nook.org which improved on ION's tek which is not on the forum I guess, which is a shame.

But we salted/titrated with diluted drops off diluted acid, (before divided in two parts, that the excess acid was used for/after combing the second half for accuracy.

First you pull a lot of gunk,
Second after evaporation the sulfuric acid remains, unlike hydrochloric acid (still prefer sulfate, because HCL is "more hygroscopic" i've read actually never used HCL(maybe I will some day, because DMPEA HCL is very soluble in chlorform unlike mescaline HCL). Only 3x recrystallization from water acetone gives > 99% pure mescalinesulphate dihydrate.
Third you maybe want to buy a new pan.
Fourth guess you should start over and do a second A/B extraction.

Nowadays everyone does CIELO TEK. which even beter then Kash A/B (although I have it, never studied it but reading diagonally, I don't know where Kash improved over Litmus?

In the CIELO TEK they changed from sulfuric/sulphate tot citric/citrate. The reason I haven't discover yet (availability of solvents? Ethylacete is now more readily available in the USA?) Better recovery?

Just bumped into it, although it's 3,5 years old, I kind off ignored it I guess, since the method I know works fine and I love the Sulphate. 99% pure is enough by me so I need to be convinced if I am going to make mescaline citrate.

I did a STB (because A/B gave to much slime) which is maybe more losy, but I bought a pressure cooker (to break the slime). I am trying A/B next time, but I guess we live in the miedival area. Whe are the last of our kind probably.
 
Which TEK did you use? I think there is no one that says pull with 35% sulfuric. it's one of the strongest acid. It's no acetic acid.
Actually, I didn't find any Tek with mescaline sulfate here on the forum.

I've been away for a while and when I came back there was all this hype about CIELO.

That's what I really wanted to do. But reality set in and it became clear to me that I wouldn't be able to get Ethyl Acetate. Quality acetone is also hard to find here...

So I tried an STB on instinct and some tips from doubledog on the CIELO thread.

An1cca. This name didn't go unnoticed. A friend recently sent me a pdf "An1cca's notes on cactus phytochemistry", which I briefly looked at the TLC part and didn't pay much attention to the extraction part...

So, I added a lot of sulfuric acid to the extraction. I kept everything in the fridge. Is there any risk that I've destroyed the mescaline?

What do you suggest? Basify with NaOH, pull with xylene and titrate with 5% sulfuric acid??
I'm reading An1cca. I'll look for nitrazine.
 
825g of green pulp with skin and bones in 5 liters of water and 800g of NaOH.

5 pulls of 200ml of xylene were made. And then 5 pulls with 100ml of 35% sulfuric acid solution.

When I salted it with sulfuric acid, my funnel that I bought as "stainless steel" peeled and turned black!

This made me a little worried. I plan to evaporate the acid water, dry it and wash it with methanol. Would this be able to clean any excess sulfuric acid?

As for evaporating the acid water, can I evaporate it under heat? I plan to use a cup heater (-+60°C).
Well, it’s not easy to succeed on the first try without following an established method. I’d recommend using some existing technique (my is here) and sticking to it as closely as possible. Any changes could have a much bigger impact than you might expect, especially if you’re not a chemist.

Was the pulp dry or fresh? If it was fresh, you might have had too much water.

Three xylene pulls should be enough if done correctly, and five would likely be overkill.

One salting pull is sufficient as long as you have enough acid. You can check out my post on salting/titration here. It’s written for HCl, which I use, but the same principles apply to other acids. You need the exact amount of acid, otherwise, the result may contain excess acid and could be difficult to remove. The post includes a calculator where you can input the estimated mescaline weight and acid concentration, and it will tell you how much acid to add to reach equilibrium. If you’re using H₂SO₄, use the calculator attached to the current post, I changed the acid to sulfuric acid.

Avoid using metals, plastics, or any material you’re unsure of, as it may not be compatible with the chemicals used in extraction (acids, bases, solvents, etc.). There’s plenty of information online, or you can ask ChatGPT. I recommend glass, preferably lab-grade glass with proper caps.

If I were you, I’d do basification again followed by salting/titration to leave behind any unwanted substances.

There might be a way to remove sulfuric acid from the result if you’ve used too much, but you’ll need to search the forums for more information. I doubt that simply washing a dry form would remove all the acid, as it could be trapped in the crystal matrix.

I use HCl with titration, so any excess HCl is minimal and evaporates during the drying process. As far as I can tell, the final product isn’t hygroscopic.

Mescaline salts are fairly stable, so a bit of heat shouldn’t be an issue. I dry my mescaline HCl in the oven at 80°C for several hours with no problem. I assume it’s similar for mescaline sulfate, but you should verify that.

STB (Straight to Base) is simple and effective—there’s no need to use CIELO or anything else if you have access to and can safely handle the required chemicals, which can be a challenge for some people.

Storing mescaline in a fridge under highly acidic conditions shouldn't cause any harm.

If you want to use nitrazine for salting/titration and don’t mind the cost, go for it—it works very well, and I use it regularly. However, using pH papers and a pipette also works, it just requires more effort and time. Check this post for details.
 

Attachments

  • H2SO4+Titration+Calculator.xls
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Jahvisions:
Ethyl acetate is not so toxic as toluene or xylene, its use is partially due to harm reduction approach. And it is also now more available in the US it seems.
When EA is used, it is more convenient to use citric acid due to specific properties and solubilities of citric acid and mescaline citrate in the solvent.

FractAlien:
You have used extreme amount of acid, it should be just drops of it, just to titrate it.
Simple homemade tool for titration is red cabbage liquid pH indicator.

I would try to basify it again and repeat extraction.
 
Sulfuric acid can't be dried evaporate like Hydrochloric Acid. (important, Lye breaks glass, so you HDPE milk jugs so you can leave it safe for a longer period.

Here is the TEK for Litmus, the old name An1cca. Important are steps 7 to 10.

The beauty of it is that you devide combined Xylene/Toluene from all the pulls in to two equal parts or better, the second half a little more. No you can titrate quite fast and not to accurate. Now combine the two and the excess acid is used for salting the second part. Now you can make a good estimation how much you need. So you can safely add some more and titrate the last part very accurate with a lower concentration.
 

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Thank you all for your attention.

I basified it with NaOH and did 3 pulls with xylene.

Was the pulp dry or fresh? If it was fresh, you might have had too much water

Pete666, I am working with fresh cacti, so I am not sure if your Tek will work for me. Also, I saw that both your Tek and the Litmus Tek purify with acetone, and I can't get lab-grade acetone to work with, only those acetone-based nail polish removers.

I loved the concept of backsalting and intend to use it from now on.

Now I am confused about the best possible way to purify. I'm afraid of doing a re-x with H2SO4 and my cat's tongue turning black and peeling like the funnel... :(

I thought about salting with diluted HCl. I read several topics about re-x with boiling IPA, IPA+MEK (I can't buy MEK here), 80% alcohol, boiling methanol, etc. I'm a bit lost here.

I also found an old tek with ammonia purification. The final photo didn't look very pretty, but that wouldn't be a problem for me as long as it works. However, I haven't seen other people purifying with ammonia...

What would you recommend? I have access to ethanol, IPA, methanol, H2SO4, HCl and ammonia.
 

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Ime best way to purify is re-x of mescaline sulfate. It's really easy procedure, acetone is best for that, but IPA could be used also, it's quite similar.
During backsalting, only small amount of acid is neeed, and any excess is washed out during re-x with acetone or isopropanol.
 
Imo backsalting, titration and re-x are simple and funny parts of the extraction, it's "easy work".
All steps before are "hard work", bit annoying and demanding.
 
Thank you all for your attention.

I basified it with NaOH and did 3 pulls with xylene.




Pete666, I am working with fresh cacti, so I am not sure if your Tek will work for me. Also, I saw that both your Tek and the Litmus Tek purify with acetone, and I can't get lab-grade acetone to work with, only those acetone-based nail polish removers.

I loved the concept of backsalting and intend to use it from now on.

Now I am confused about the best possible way to purify. I'm afraid of doing a re-x with H2SO4 and my cat's tongue turning black and peeling like the funnel... :(

I thought about salting with diluted HCl. I read several topics about re-x with boiling IPA, IPA+MEK (I can't buy MEK here), 80% alcohol, boiling methanol, etc. I'm a bit lost here.

I also found an old tek with ammonia purification. The final photo didn't look very pretty, but that wouldn't be a problem for me as long as it works. However, I haven't seen other people purifying with ammonia...

What would you recommend? I have access to ethanol, IPA, methanol, H2SO4, HCl and ammonia.
I work with fresh cacti as well, so using them in my tek poses no problem at all. When working with fresh cacti, I use only 134 ml of distilled water to dissolve 172 g of KOH for every 1 kg of plant material.

I've always worked exclusively with mescaline hydrochloride and don't have experience with the sulfate form. However, sulfate re-crystallization seems like a good approach if you’re comfortable with its properties. I personally prefer hydrochloride because it is highly water-soluble, making it ideal for rectal administration.

To be honest, I’ve stopped purifying the product if the material is of good quality. With the right cactus (since each cactus provides different purity levels of the result) and proper titration, the result is clean enough to use directly without further purification. If you don’t overdo it with the acid, you’ll end up with a fairly clean (almost white) product. Especially when you don't use heat for the extraction - separation of layers. Otherwise, you may introduce a lot of impurities. I prefer the full alkaloid profile, so additional purification is not desirable. If the product turns out too dark, I sometimes use activated charcoal, but in most cases, it’s not necessary.

Purification using acetone, MEK, and IPA results in clean mescaline, but this may not be ideal for those seeking the full plant experience, as it removes other alkaloids from the mix.
 
I re-basic the aqueous phase and pulled it with xylene.

I diluted my sulfuric acid to 5% and started titrating. I don't have a micropipette so I used a serological pipette.

The lack of precision made me add increments of ~1ml H2SO4 5%. Everything was going well when at 4ml the solution dropped abruptly to pH 3.5. I went too far... :( I should have used a dropper (thinking about getting a 10ml burette...)

What now?

I'm too lazy to re-basic and pull it again. Can I still transfer it to re-x?

What would be the most suitable tek? The dual solvent crystallization of Dg??

I don't have access to acetone here. Could I use IPA 99.8% instead???
 
Those few drops of acid make a dramatic change to the pH, but it's not entirely so much to be worrying about - you could probably clear it up with a tiny pinch of chalk, which will settle out leaving only a tiny bit of calcium sulfate in solution. Remember, pH 3.5 has one hundredth the hydrion (acid) concentration of pH 1.5, and 3160 times the hydrion concentration of a neutral solution, so, about one three-thousandth molar. One sixtieth of a gram (i.e. about 17mg) of chalk per litre of sulfate backsalt washings should get it back to neutral (working off the top of my head).
 
I've been studying the double solvent re-x of DG.

From what I've read, it talks about everything from STB extraction to crystallization.

I've already done the STB and my aqueous phase is at pH 3.5.

Can I simply reduce the volume, say by half, let it cool a little and add IPA until it becomes cloudy and starts to break down in the refrigerator??

If that's the case, this technique seems pretty simple to me.
 
Those few drops of acid make a dramatic change to the pH, but it's not entirely so much to be worrying about - you could probably clear it up with a tiny pinch of chalk, which will settle out leaving only a tiny bit of calcium sulfate in solution. Remember, pH 3.5 has one hundredth the hydrion (acid) concentration of pH 1.5, and 3160 times the hydrion concentration of a neutral solution, so, about one three-thousandth molar. One sixtieth of a gram (i.e. about 17mg) of chalk per litre of sulfate backsalt washings should get it back to neutral (working off the top of my head).
This neutralization approach seems interesting to me. But I got a little lost in the math...

I'll probably have to study a little stoichiometry to do this well without going overboard and making it too alkaline.

For now, I'm going to go with re-x with IPA. But thanks a lot for the information.
 
This neutralization approach seems interesting to me. But I got a little lost in the math...

I'll probably have to study a little stoichiometry to do this well without going overboard and making it too alkaline.

For now, I'm going to go with re-x with IPA. But thanks a lot for the information.
You can't make it too alkaline with chalk, the chalk is insoluble.

Another option might be to extract more cactus and use a tiny bit of the freebase solution to neutralise the excess acid.

And don't throw away anything after your re-x. There will still be usable product in the IPA after you've separated the crystals. Also, check the pH of your re-x'd crystals - it would be useful to know how much acid sticks to them. Mescaline bisulfate (hydrogensulfate) - formed with excess acid - is also a thing.
 
I've been studying the double solvent re-x of DG.

From what I've read, it talks about everything from STB extraction to crystallization.

I've already done the STB and my aqueous phase is at pH 3.5.

Can I simply reduce the volume, say by half, let it cool a little and add IPA until it becomes cloudy and starts to break down in the refrigerator??

If that's the case, this technique seems pretty simple to me.

It's better to dry water pull to know what is the amount of your crude product. Product/water/IPA ratio is quite important., you can play with it, but 1/12/12 could be a good way to start. You can always evaporate and start over again.
Don't let it cool, add IPA while it's still warm.
IPA will wash excess acid.
 
You can't make it too alkaline with chalk, the chalk is insoluble.

Another option might be to extract more cactus and use a tiny bit of the freebase solution to neutralise the excess acid.

And don't throw away anything after your re-x. There will still be usable product in the IPA after you've separated the crystals. Also, check the pH of your re-x'd crystals - it would be useful to know how much acid sticks to them. Mescaline bisulfate (hydrogensulfate) - formed with excess acid - is also a thing.
Interesting idea to add chalk to precipitate the excess sulfuric acid. I don't remember hearing that before.

I think in practice you may need more chalk than the pH indicates. This is because there is likely other plant mater besides mescaline that was salted between pH 8 and 3.5. No more than 50mg of chalk should be needed, because the overstating was by 50mg of sulfuric max (1ml at 5%).

After the chalk "desalting" a solvent wash could make sense before evaporating. Could be interesting to check what could be in that wash if anything.
 
It's better to dry water pull to know what is the amount of your crude product. Product/water/IPA ratio is quite important., you can play with it, but 1/12/12 could be a good way to start. You can always evaporate and start over again.
Don't let it cool, add IPA while it's still warm.
IPA will wash excess acid.
I'm not sure if I understood correctly.
Would it be better to dry my entire aqueous phase instead of reducing it, then weigh it and try to re-x it from the 1:12:12 quantities of product:water:IPA?
 
Yes, that is what I meant.

Edit: in my experience, sulfate is less soluble in water/IPA mixture than in water/acetone mixture, so is better to not add too much IPA.
 
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