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No worries. I didn't take it wrong at all and I'm not offended in the least! To answer your question I have certainly found myself in endless debates, even here on the nexus. however I'm starting to realize that after making a point once or twice there is usually little good in making it further.

The problem is that you are trying to convince people that you think spirituality, etc is unlikely, but it's only unlikely from your view point. The people you are trying to enlighten are scratching their heads and saying it's WAY more obvious that this all came form something.

I mean what is the light you see in your head when you take DMT or when you dream?
What are black holes?
Why do electrons collapse into matter when we observe them?

Why do we have free will when every single thing science has to say about molecular dynamics suggests that it should all be completely pre determined. I state this as someone who has worked on molecular dynamic forcefields. If materialism is right then we should be able to rewind the big bang to it's exact initial state.... If it started over again from the exact same initial conditions then the all laws of thermodyamics, entropy, all the equations for motions including schrodingers equations state that the universe would unfold EXACTLY as it did before. Does that even remotely seem reasonable to you? That all human actions has been utterly predetermined?

Do you have free will. If you say yes then by extension you are saying that there is at a minimum exists some 'force' beyond this physical plane that allows us to manipulate matter via our will power and to overcome the laws of thermodynamics. There is absolutely no way to logically wiggle out of that.

So science can't even answer the most basic of philosophical questions like those above...at least not yet. Thus, science isn't even remotely close to having anything worth saying about creationism. Science say's there is evolution and without a doubt evolution is real. But that doesn't mean that there wasn't a creator any more than it means there was.

Instead let's just use logical deduction. We are here aren't we? All of this 'what-ever-the-fuck" it is, is here isn't it? Were did it come from?

Well creation arising from some mathematical null set on a chalk board just doesn't scream "truth" to the ast majority of people on this planet. And I doubt it ever will....because from my point of view that exact opposite is dead obvious.

I mean we do exist. I have free will and can move matter against the normal physical laws. Seems likely there is something beyond me.

You see my point? From some vantage points it's nigh impossible that there couldn't be something beyond all of this...I literally feel it's a 100% certainty. I'm that convinced of it....and I'm convinced from looking at the same scientific data that you have. Isn't that interesting.

It is all a POV. You openly admit you can't disprove creationism, and everyone openly admits they can't scientifically prove that the spiritual realm exists. Thus every one of us has to either accept what someone else tells us to believe, or make our own logic deductions about it.

I can pretty much guarantee you that you haven't changed a single person's mind on this subject...and that was your stated mission so to speak.

I'm not bothered by what you are saying or anything like that. I just don't think you are achieving your goals.

Peace.

<blockquote data-quote="joedirt" data-source="post: 3505427" data-attributes="member: 6370">No worries.&nbsp; I didn&#039;t take it wrong at all and I&#039;m not offended in the least!&nbsp; <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; To answer your question I have certainly found myself in endless debates, even here on the nexus.&nbsp; however I&#039;m starting to realize that after making a point once or twice there is usually little good in making it further.The problem is that you are trying to convince people that you think spirituality, etc is unlikely, but it&#039;s only unlikely from your view point.&nbsp; The people you are trying to enlighten are scratching their heads and saying it&#039;s WAY more obvious that this all came form something. I mean what is the light you see in your head when you take DMT or when you dream?&nbsp; What are black holes?&nbsp; Why do electrons collapse into matter when we observe them?&nbsp; Why do we have free will when every single thing science has to say about molecular dynamics suggests that it should all be completely pre determined.&nbsp; I state this as someone who has worked on molecular dynamic forcefields.&nbsp; If materialism is right then we should be able to rewind the big bang to it&#039;s exact initial state....&nbsp; If it started over again from the exact same initial conditions then the all laws of thermodyamics, entropy, all the equations for motions including schrodingers equations state that the universe would unfold EXACTLY as it did before.&nbsp; Does that even remotely seem reasonable to you?&nbsp; That all human actions has been utterly predetermined?Do you have free will.&nbsp; If you say yes then by extension you are saying that there is at a minimum exists some &#039;force&#039; beyond this physical plane that allows us to manipulate matter via our will power and to overcome the laws of thermodynamics.&nbsp; There is absolutely no way to logically wiggle out of that.&nbsp; So science can&#039;t even answer the most basic of philosophical questions like those above...at least not yet.&nbsp; Thus, science isn&#039;t even remotely close to having anything worth saying about creationism.&nbsp; Science say&#039;s there is evolution and without a doubt evolution is real.&nbsp; But that doesn&#039;t mean that there wasn&#039;t a creator any more than it means there was.&nbsp; Instead let&#039;s just use logical deduction.&nbsp; We are here aren&#039;t we?&nbsp; All of this &#039;what-ever-the-fuck&quot; it is, is here isn&#039;t it?&nbsp; Were did it come from?&nbsp; Well creation arising from some mathematical null set on a chalk board just doesn&#039;t scream &quot;truth&quot; to the ast majority of people on this planet.&nbsp; And I doubt it ever will....because from my point of view that exact opposite is dead obvious.&nbsp; &nbsp; I mean we do exist.&nbsp; I have free will and can move matter against the normal physical laws.&nbsp; Seems likely there is something beyond me.You see my point?&nbsp; From some vantage points it&#039;s nigh impossible that there couldn&#039;t be something beyond all of this...I literally feel it&#039;s a 100% certainty.&nbsp; I&#039;m that convinced of it....and I&#039;m convinced from looking at the same scientific data that you have.&nbsp; Isn&#039;t that interesting.&nbsp; <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; It is all a POV.&nbsp; You openly admit you can&#039;t disprove creationism, and everyone openly admits they can&#039;t scientifically prove that the spiritual realm exists.&nbsp; Thus every one of us has to either accept what someone else tells us to believe, or make our own logic deductions about it. I can pretty much guarantee you that you haven&#039;t changed a single person&#039;s mind on this subject...and that was your stated mission so to speak. I&#039;m not bothered by what you are saying or anything like that.&nbsp; I just don&#039;t think you are achieving your goals. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />Peace.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="joedirt, post: 3505427, member: 6370"] No worries. I didn't take it wrong at all and I'm not offended in the least! :) To answer your question I have certainly found myself in endless debates, even here on the nexus. however I'm starting to realize that after making a point once or twice there is usually little good in making it further. The problem is that you are trying to convince people that you think spirituality, etc is unlikely, but it's only unlikely from your view point. The people you are trying to enlighten are scratching their heads and saying it's WAY more obvious that this all came form something. I mean what is the light you see in your head when you take DMT or when you dream? What are black holes? Why do electrons collapse into matter when we observe them? Why do we have free will when every single thing science has to say about molecular dynamics suggests that it should all be completely pre determined. I state this as someone who has worked on molecular dynamic forcefields. If materialism is right then we should be able to rewind the big bang to it's exact initial state.... If it started over again from the exact same initial conditions then the all laws of thermodyamics, entropy, all the equations for motions including schrodingers equations state that the universe would unfold EXACTLY as it did before. Does that even remotely seem reasonable to you? That all human actions has been utterly predetermined? Do you have free will. If you say yes then by extension you are saying that there is at a minimum exists some 'force' beyond this physical plane that allows us to manipulate matter via our will power and to overcome the laws of thermodynamics. There is absolutely no way to logically wiggle out of that. So science can't even answer the most basic of philosophical questions like those above...at least not yet. Thus, science isn't even remotely close to having anything worth saying about creationism. Science say's there is evolution and without a doubt evolution is real. But that doesn't mean that there wasn't a creator any more than it means there was. Instead let's just use logical deduction. We are here aren't we? All of this 'what-ever-the-fuck" it is, is here isn't it? Were did it come from? Well creation arising from some mathematical null set on a chalk board just doesn't scream "truth" to the ast majority of people on this planet. And I doubt it ever will....because from my point of view that exact opposite is dead obvious. I mean we do exist. I have free will and can move matter against the normal physical laws. Seems likely there is something beyond me. You see my point? From some vantage points it's nigh impossible that there couldn't be something beyond all of this...I literally feel it's a 100% certainty. I'm that convinced of it....and I'm convinced from looking at the same scientific data that you have. Isn't that interesting. :) It is all a POV. You openly admit you can't disprove creationism, and everyone openly admits they can't scientifically prove that the spiritual realm exists. Thus every one of us has to either accept what someone else tells us to believe, or make our own logic deductions about it. I can pretty much guarantee you that you haven't changed a single person's mind on this subject...and that was your stated mission so to speak. I'm not bothered by what you are saying or anything like that. I just don't think you are achieving your goals. :) Peace. [/QUOTE]