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My impression of Buddhists' impression of enlightenment

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H

hixidom

Rising Star
I love all of you guys. I wish I could meet all of you and give you a hug and hang with each one of you for a day. In a society that condemns exploration of altered states, we're all lucky to have minds that have been set free. I feel lucky to have access to a community as open-minded and accepting as this one.

I'm just posting this to recount an experience I recently had at an event entitled "Buddhism: A Human Introduction", and the impression I got of how the members seem to view enlightenment.

[you can skip this part if you don't care about the meeting structure]
The meeting was very good actually. I arrived a few minutes late to find a group of 30 or so people sitting cross-legged in a circle. They were just about to start a 10 minute meditation. After that, we went around the circle and each person introduced himself/herself. If the person was a regular member, he would tell about his favorite aspect of Buddhism. If the person was new, he would ask a question about Buddhism. After the introductions, the experienced members went through the list of questions that had been asked and answered/discussed them each in detail.

[The part that bothered me]
At one point, an experienced member was saying that meditation gets easier with practice because you become more focussed and are more easily able to get to "that" realisation. I then asked what the point of further meditation is once you've realised "that" realisation. It just seemed to me that realisation of the point/goal of meditation negates the need for further meditation. (An analogy I thought of afterwards was a drug addict willingly bringing himself to rehab because he's suddenly realised the burden that his drug habit puts on various aspects of his life, etc.: It would seem to me that such an "addict" already has the outlook and willpower that he seeks to gain from rehabilitation)

I elaborated by saying something along the lines of "once you've found the realisation that is the meditative mindset, why do you need to continue meditating? Why wouldn't you just be able to have that realisation all the time?" The experienced member said "well, because then you would be enlightened". That remark, along with the subtle laughter of the other experienced members, made me realise that these people's attitude toward enlightenment was one in which enlightenment is something to be seeked but never found. I couldn't help but think of hyperspace as an analogy: When you first enter the DMT circles and hear about "breaking through" and "hyperspace", you have no idea what that means. For me, I aimed for a break-through experience within the first 3-4 trips, but I was still wondering if my experiences counted as "breaking through" at a time when I would soon realise that, "if this place I find myself in after smoalking isn't hyperspace, then I don't know what is" (after all, whatever it was, "hyperspace" seemed to be the only word worthy of describing it).

So, while in the DMT circles we have this esoteric/indescribable thing known as hyperspace, there is this esoteric/indescribable thing known as enlightenment in the Buddhist circles, the difference being that we expect a new DMT user to experience hyperspace eventually, whereas enlightenment seems to be something that your average buddhist is expected NOT to obtain.

One of the experienced members told me that people who come to this meeting are looking for something. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I was more so curious as to what I should do after I've found that something. I guess I'd be curious to know how other DMT users and other Buddhists perceive enlightenment as compared to the fellows I met at this meeting.
 
I don´t believe that there is such a thing as permanent enlightenment. All human beings can have moments of enlightenment. But the human brain is a highly flexable organ, so an 'enlightened brain' that doesn´t 'practice enlightenment' anymore, will at some point loose it.

There have been some debates about what the word enlightenement means and whether it exists. Most people here don´t believe that it can actually be achieved, but i think that this is because of how most people define enlightenment.

To me enlightenment doesn´t have any mystical, supernatural or otherwise outlandish dimension. I define it as a state of mind where you can let go of ego-related issues and act in an unselfish manner. Everybody can experience this and i think that most people have had such moments of a total lack of selfishness.

There are different degrees of selfishness. There is the simple degree of egotism, narcissism or egoism. A more difficult form of selfishness is not being able to accept that your views of the world are being shaped by the limitations of your own mind.

I believe that a human being can be freed from all forms of selfishness though. Even the manifestations of selfishness that are hard to detect and that are mostly hidden to yourself. But even the greatest persons on this planet have their moments of weakness. No-one can be totally unselfish all the time.
 
I agree. No mental state is permanent. If I go to another one of those meetings, it will be to ask what they envision an enlightened person to be like. I mean, do they think that an enlightened person doesn't have to eat and poop and hold a job like all the rest of us? I have moments of enlightenment all the time, but they're nothing that a stubbed toe couldn't undo. Maybe they would say that's just not enlightenment, but I would say they don't understand how the human mind works. Being human means being susceptible to sudden unexpected changes in mood and emotion. There are parts of our brain that see the world with a logical eye, but the other parts are made to undo that fine-tuned intellect.
 
I am no buddhist, but I do believe that mental states tend to be the result of habitual ways of thinking, that is to say habitual ways of perceiving, judging, and reflecting. If one tends to habitually judge in a preconceived, unmindful way then bigotry is likely to be the result. Contrarily, if one has the will to eliminate all prejudice then the perfectly magnanimous, clear, and attentive state of mind is likely to be the result. As has been observed above, these mental states are inherently transient- if one acquires different habits of thinking, then one's mental state will change with it. Robert Anton Wilson wrote, "The mind and its contents are one and the same."

For me, (again I am not a Buddhist) enlightenment is that state of mind that arises from habitual openness, attentiveness, and identification with all else. Enough practice and the state of mind begins to reinforce itself. So in a sense, enlightenment is eternal, if one manages to retain the habit.

I do not know how different schools or traditions of Buddhism tend to understand enlightenment, but I think I have a good understanding of enlightenment in the tradition that I see myself as a continuation of- current neuroscience and westernized mysticism as it were.
 
Im not big into buddhism as a path for me to follow..too contradicting and nihilistic. I am not into monastic celibacy and all that because I find it weird an unhealthy..and the whole idea of doing no harm and causing no suffering etc-well sounds nice but the Dali Lama himself eats meat..its just sort to say cause no suffering and then eat meat when there are obvious alternatives..and I am not saying it is wrong to eat meat, just that I find some hipocracy there.

I definatly do not vibe with the idea that "life is suffering"..what a crappy trip that is to go on carrying around..life is just as much joy, love, sex, drugs and rock and roll as it is anything else.

At one point I was really into buddhism and read shambhala sun all the time and was really into meditation..I found alot of the "buddhists" I met to be sort of single minded quacks as well..but that is not saying a whole lot as yoga and buddhism tend to attract alot of trendy people like any other trend..

I do like some of the philosophy behind it..but buddhism came out of other shamanic traditions far older that I personally find much more interesting. Buddhism to me is a religion, and it definatily has a not so perfect track record in terms of being innocent, though not as bad as some religions.

Also..the idea of enlightenment as something you work forever to attain is silly I think. I think that is a lie or delusion. I have been enlightened..and so have most of the people here at some point in time. It is like an orgasm..or a DMT trip..a moment of illumination..the real work in in the integration of that moment of realization..again and again and again. I dont think there is a final stage and I think that this is a truth that any true follower of a mystical path, buddhists included have known for a long long long time.
 
The thing about budhism that realy impresses me is that it´s core philosophy (when budhism is stripped from all it´s hinduist influences) shows some striking similarity´s with sigmund freud´s theory´s about the human psyche.

You have to realise that freud, no matter how flawed his theory´s are, was already way ahead of his time (one of the first people who put brain cells under the microscope).

Now, budhism arose about 2500 years ago, more than 2400 years even, before freud laid the foundations of the science we today, call psychology :shock: :shock: :shock: .
 
I feel that we are not confined to the limits of our physical bodies, being a part of the all that is. We have access to all of the information ever thought at any point available through the akashic records.
We practice until we gain a skill, and we can then use that skill at any time.
You can definitely just use that skill as it is, but if you continue practicing there is no limit for how better you can get it at. The possibilities are infinite.
Enlightenment is a state of constant awareness, where you recognize your own divinity and the all that is. You serve as a light for others to recognize these things as well. It spreads and becomes normal and more realistic, more people join.
The more you practice and train yourself, the more constant it becomes, and the more things you can do. It's like learning guitar chords or something. When you first learn to play, it can take seconds to form them. The more you practice, the quicker you do them, until it's instant, you can always do it at will. You also learn more chords as you learn the basics and start to learn how to create original wonderful things. You can always get better.
The more people that see it want to do it because they see how great it is working out for you.

It seems to make the most sense based off everything I've learned, while also seeming like the best possible way of life. Win win!

Thanks
 
What school of Buddhism meeting did you go to? There are many different schools of Buddhism that each practice in their own reflective manner.
 
Sounds like a fairly rigid view of enlightenment that they have. Quite in opposition to my understanding (which is a path, not a destination).
 
Like Psychedelicbuddah said there are many schools of Buddhism. The Chan or Zen Buddhist core philosophy doesn't deify the Buddha. There are good books like "Buddhism without Beliefs" that show Buddhism to be more a psychology for dealing with the often horrible aspects of life and appreciating the beauty. I believe that the Buddha himself would roll over in his grave at the thought of people making a deity out of him which millions of people have. I think that enlightenment is the realization of the gift of self awareness and this fleeting time that we have been given of being alive. Most Zen Buddhists use meditation to become "Aware of the moment" to wake up and savor your short time of having personal awareness of being alive. It is easy to get distracted living in the future or the past or being on auto pilot and not savoring this fleeting period of being alive and that is what they are practicing in their meditation. Enlightenment is the realization that you are the "Crown of Creation" and when you understand it well enough to stop looking for enlightenment elsewhere you can savor the gift of being alive and not let it slip away while your are distracted elsewhere.
 
I love Buddhism, not in terms of religion or sect, but in terms of the teachings of buddha.

Among my favorite Sutras is the Diamond sutra.

This sutra addresses enlightenment well.

In some Vedic traditions Buddha is regarded as an avatar of Vishnu who incarnates in order to teach false teachings and lead people away from understanding.
 
I agree with what memo said in that I really don't think the core of the Buddhas teachings were intended to make an idol out of himself, nor were perceptions of enlightenment meant to become so stiff and externally imposed.

It's the same with Christianity today. Rather than apply the direct teachings, people tend to cling too heavily to the surrounding idol-ism totally negating our own dormant Buddha nature and Christ consciousness. If you're seeking enlightenment outside of yourself, you will never find it.

Once you are truly enlightened, or even once you have had the occasional glimpses (satori) of the enlightened mind you begin your path of teaching and guiding others to the best of your ability. This process stems from compassion to others as well as compassion to yourself. Buddhism shouldn't be practiced in a dogmatic way as it completely defeats it's own purpose.

At first glimpse and after a brief introduction to the world of attachments and Grasping and aversion , it's easy to see why Buddhism might appear Nihilistic like Jamie says he perceives it to be.

In actual fact it's the opposite but it is a difficult thing for the mind to dissect as we are too naturally conditioned to seek more of what we like, and avoid more of what we don't . Non attachment in a Buddhist context isn't about loosing all feeling towards anything, it's simply about not being attached to those feelings. Being in the world but not of it. This doesn't lead to passivity, it leads to compassion and a greater understanding of things. You can still have feelings towards something, you just don't identify your 'self' with your attachments,aversions and inclinations to have those feelings.

In regards to Enlightenment, there is a Zen phrase,

If you meet the Buddha on the road , kill him!

It's not to be taken literally of course. The road symbolizes the path of enlightenment and the Buddha you meet on the road, is your own idealized perception of what enlightenment and Buddha-hood equates too. If you think you know what enlightenment is, disregard it, even if you are 'right' and carry on either way essentially. If you are beginning to merge with the ways of the light, then you will naturally already be continuing along the path you should be.

Onethousanddk , enlightenment truly Is more of a path rather than a destination. The rigidty in the views come's not from the core teaching's themselves, but the attachments to the views that have manifested and mutated since Buddha spoke of them.

Killing perceived notions of enlightenment is a humbling train of thought and encourages people that seek enlightenment to not be attached even to the enlightenment they seek This is where the Dualistic mind starts to tie it's self in knots, hence the need for on-going meditation /participation In the world.

Like Memo puts it;

Enlightenment is the realization that you are the "Crown of Creation" and when you understand it well enough to stop looking for enlightenment elsewhere you can savor the gift of being alive and not let it slip away while your are distracted elsewhere.

This in turn leads to Nirvana ( a state free from suffering) once a person has experienced it, even just for 1 day or for 1 minute, the next step is helping alleviate the suffering in other people, as enlightenment , is completely useless, if the world around you is still suffering.

Hence how we arrive back at compassion, which is where Buddhism , and enlightenment really applies it's self in an applicable way.

Being compassionate to others and helping others along their path is the most noble thing we can do.We do this by first, learning to be compassionate to ourselves.

We're all on this forum because we have become aware of tools that can help speed up this process and dissolve boundaries of 'Self ' Not everyone needs these tools to achieve said states,but that's ok too. We live in a modern world, so we must continually adapt older teachings to apply to the here and now and use what ever tools we have so long as we remain completely Mindful in their use.

If you want to awaken all of humanity,
then awaken all of yourself,
if you want to eliminate the suffering in the world,
then eliminate all that is dark and negative in yourself.
Truly, the greatest gift you have to give
is that of your own self-transformation. -Lao Tzu
 
[youtube]

I was trying to find it, I think this is what I was looking for. At the beginning, I believe Terrance sort of states that he has shifted his perspective a bit due to experiences resulting from his tumor. If anyone thinks he is saying something different please let me know :)
 
Here's a link to a .pdf that deals with the paradox of trying to gain something that is really already there or find something that isn't lost or trying to get the description of the taste of an orange to taste like an orange.
 

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A great, somewhat westernized and poetic take on Buddha is Siddharta by Herman Hesse.

A great little read about meditation from an actual Buddhist is Meditation in Action by Chogyam Trungpa.
 
AlbertKLloyd said:
According the the diamond sutra no person who says they are enlightened is.
Click to expand...

Which is utterly absurd. The buddha claimed enlightenment and so did many of those around him during his day.

The problem as I see it is this. Enlightenment has been put up on a pedestal so far...that people believe you should be able to perform vast miracles or see the future...when in reality enlightenment is nothing more...and nothing less, then perfect awareness of what is.

At least that is how I view it. I also think there are people (though few) that are enlightened today.

Peace.
 
joedirt said:
AlbertKLloyd said:
According the the diamond sutra no person who says they are enlightened is.
Click to expand...

Which is utterly absurd. The buddha claimed enlightenment and so did many of those around him during his day.

The problem as I see it is this. Enlightenment has been put up on a pedestal so far...that people believe you should be able to perform vast miracles or see the future...when in reality enlightenment is nothing more...and nothing less, then perfect awareness of what is.

At least that is how I view it. I also think there are people (though few) that are enlightened today.

Peace.
Click to expand...
If self is an illusion, then who is it who is enlightened?

(Look into Tony Parsons)
 
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