New "All Natural" MDMA

[Ulim]

Just stumbled upon this. MODERATOR: LINK REMOVED
(Edit sry for the link.)
Sounds to me like it would be active. But nothing like MDMA.
But maybe the mix does it. From what it looks to me its just like an energy drink.
Lost of energy and brain stimulation but does Kava Kava really makes such a huge mood lift?
I want to look into Kava Kava now.
Anyone up to try it? I never ever tried anything nootropic but a ginko+lotsavitamin supplement.

For people who dont want to acces the website these are the ingredients:
Kava Kava 20:1, EGCG 50:1, Theobromine 10:1, N-Methylpeptide Omniracetam, L-Phenylalanine 25:1, Acetyl L-Tyrosine, Methylcobalamin B12, Higenamine, NooSpark, Omniracetam O/W, Theacrine, OmniRacetamBLU, Organic Vitamin E

 

[Ulim]

Researching Kava.
Its active compounds the Kavalactones look a small bit like NBOME.

Well aint that interesting. But the "stuff" they add probably does not really incresase the effect of the Kava Kava

 

[concombres]

Its a ridiculous marketing ploy.
They sell anti-energy drinks at gas stations around me. The brands are usually things like "lean" & "purple drank". The ingredients are just melatonin, valarian & rose hips.
Nothing even remotely close to what they are attempting to market it as an alternative to.
It looks like the same thing going on here.

 

[obliguhl]

But the "stuff" they add probably does not really incresase the effect of the Kava Kava

Kava and Theobromine is a really amazing combination, but not sure how safe.

edit: Looking at the site...quite ridiciolously ill informed. Kava and alcohol does not go well together in many cases, and taking 5-htp with an maoi (kava) ..well. Looks like they've thrown a bunch of stuff together ....their whole marketing is DISGUSTING.

 

[Infinite I]

I had apparantly good stuff from the pacific islands and it was pretty mild, tasted ok was like a weak but not as great opium. Im sure there were kava kava bars in different places around the world, even in the US.

It was quite nice it numbed my mouth and a had a mellow time with my friend but it wasnt that stimulating more stoney, but maybe with all those other additives it would potentiate it, dunno...

Khat would be a much better candidate for 'all natural' mdma plus is omniracetam natural? lol

Khat combined with nootrpics would be a more viable candidate but even on its own its excellent stuff and its just a plant you chew

Peruvian torch combined with such things would probaby be even better! :thumb_up:

 

[Mindlusion]

Just stumbled upon this. MODERATOR: LINK REMOVED

Sounds to me like it would be active. But nothing like MDMA.
But maybe the mix does it. From what it looks to me its just like an energy drink.
Lost of energy and brain stimulation but does Kava Kava really makes such a huge mood lift?
I want to look into Kava Kava now.
Anyone up to try it? I never ever tried anything nootropic but a ginko+lotsavitamin supplement.

For people who dont want to acces the website these are the ingredients:
Kava Kava 20:1, EGCG 50:1, Theobromine 10:1, N-Methylpeptide Omniracetam, L-Phenylalanine 25:1, Acetyl L-Tyrosine, Methylcobalamin B12, Higenamine, NooSpark, Omniracetam O/W, Theacrine, OmniRacetamBLU, Organic Vitamin E

It sounds like just another marketing admixture of racetams and supplements like alpha-brain. No doubt that it has some effect. I bet kava kava would combine very well with aniracetam

Researching Kava.
Its active compounds the Kavalactones look a small bit like NBOME.

Well aint that interesting. But the "stuff" they add probably does not really incresase the effect of the Kava Kava

Actually they are very different.

While they look similar at first glance, the only resemblance is the aromatic ring. First of all, the phenethylamine backbone is extremely important for the serotonin agonism of MDMA or NBOMe. If you lengthen or shorten even just the chain of that backbone, these effects disappear altogether or are greatly reduced.

The kavalactones don't even contain nitrogen, they are missing the amine altogether. So the activity of these compounds are worlds apart.

Additionally, the second ring on the molecule is not aromatic, it is a lactone. So not only is it not planar like an aromatic ring, but these can exist in an open and closed conformation. Opened with the addition of water. Quite likely this happens when they are metabolized in the human body, the ring is hydrolyzed and converted to a hydrocarbon chain and carboxylic acid

 

[downwardsfromzero]

[...]

Additionally, the second ring on the molecule is not aromatic, it is a lactone. So not only is it not planar like an aromatic ring, but these can exist in an open and closed conformation. Opened with the addition of water. Quite likely this happens when they are metabolized in the human body, the ring is hydrolyzed and converted to a hydrocarbon chain and carboxylic acid

weeeelll, the pyrone ring is sort-of aromatic. If it were merely a saturated ring then, yes, it would hydrolyse etc. etc. BUT look at that set of conjugated double bonds - including the carbonyl group. They can delocalise quite nicely, including either lone pair on the ring oxygen so it (sort of) tautomerises with a positive charge on the ring oxygen and a negative charge on the formerly carbonyl oxygen which has for the moment become an enol(ate).
Thus:

One of the other ingredients, Higenamine is notably pharmacologically - but probably not centrally - active. And there's Theacrine which is clearly a caffeine analog. I've seen Acetyl L-Tyrosine included in other herbal formulas of this ilk, presumably as a monoamine precursor.

Omniracetam, or at least its explanation, sounds like total bullshit... And what exactly is meant by "L-Phenylalanine 25:1"??

Then there's noospark, which appears to be a combination of most of the other ingredients plus a load of caffeine. Hmmm.


The stuff will do something, but I doubt it'll convincingly mimic MDMA other than all that caffeine giving you a motormouth.

 

[Ulim]

Omniracetam, or at least its explanation, sounds like total bullshit... And what exactly is meant by "L-Phenylalanine 25:1"??

Then there's noospark, which appears to be a combination of most of the other ingredients plus a load of caffeine. Hmmm.


The stuff will do something, but I doubt it'll convincingly mimic MDMA other than all that caffeine giving you a motormouth.

25:1 is the ratio.
And Omniractam is a mixture of acetam compounds. (Piracetam and more)

Yes and the similarity to NBOME was just something that hit my mind. Its not the same because of the connection between I know. It just hit me so I added it.

 

[Koornut]

A close friend of mine has been serving up Kava, cacao etc in shot form at "clean" raves for years. When you aren't under the influence of anything but the love of music the effects are profound.

 

[jamie]

It is better in my experience to just wait long enough between exposures and take actual MDMA..because nothing compares to MDMA. MDMA is unique and needs no substitute.

For other occasions when you cant yet take MDMA again, I find mescaline, 2cb or even low dose LSD with caffeine and cannabis to be better than trying to find some kind of herbal MDMA like rave mix. Certainly kava is no empathic rave drug or anything like MDMA.

I understand the desire for an MDXX like substance that can be used frequently..and the closest you will get IME is other psychedelic phenethylamines. MDMA is a rare gem IMO..nothing else can really do what it does. Cacao does not come close to a full on MDMA release.

I have been known to at times make low dose mescaline chocolates, with high doses of cacao added, as well as syngeristic spices and expresso beans. That is probly the best mix I have used for those times in between MDMA experiences.

I personally just really love MDMA and feel that nothing else can sit in it's place..2cb is pretty damn good though...

There is something to be said for loosing your head at the right rave on acid also..

 

[Infinite I]

I have been known to at times make low dose mescaline chocolates, with high doses of cacao added, as well as syngeristic spices and expresso beans. That is probly the best mix I have used for those times in between MDMA experiences.

They sound amazing! I recently found adding raw cacao to Vietnamese iced coffee is very stimulating. Low dose mescaline would be ideal with it.

I personally just really love MDMA and feel that nothing else can sit in it's place..2cb is pretty damn good though...

There is something to be said for loosing your head at the right rave on acid also..

Yeah mdma is ideal for raving but sometimes acid can work, had a great time on acid seeing dave clarke playing pounding techno, really life changing night when I was quite young. I also had a really intense experience with 4-aco-dmt and Autechre live, too good :shock: Sometimes psychs do work at raves but for me its only occasionally, a few times Ive took acid or mushrooms and just wanted to get away from it all :roll:

 

[Ulim]

Yeah mdma is ideal for raving but sometimes acid can work, had a great time on acid seeing dave clarke playing pounding techno, really life changing night when I was quite young. I also had a really intense experience with 4-aco-dmt and Autechre live, too good :shock: Sometimes psychs do work at raves but for me its only occasionally, a few times Ive took acid or mushrooms and just wanted to get away from it all :roll:

Depends on dosage really. With 500ug of LSD you prolly dont want to move much if you can help it (if you can even move)

 

[Mindlusion]

[...]

Additionally, the second ring on the molecule is not aromatic, it is a lactone. So not only is it not planar like an aromatic ring, but these can exist in an open and closed conformation. Opened with the addition of water. Quite likely this happens when they are metabolized in the human body, the ring is hydrolyzed and converted to a hydrocarbon chain and carboxylic acid

weeeelll, the pyrone ring is sort-of aromatic. If it were merely a saturated ring then, yes, it would hydrolyse etc. etc. BUT look at that set of conjugated double bonds - including the carbonyl group. They can delocalise quite nicely, including either lone pair on the ring oxygen so it (sort of) tautomerises with a positive charge on the ring oxygen and a negative charge on the formerly carbonyl oxygen which has for the moment become an enol(ate).
Thus:

Sure, you are right. You can draw it like that, molecules can be described with a 'degree of aromaticity' based on an equilibrium.
But totally missing the point, the aromaticity of that species is irrelevant, the species is negligible and when it does exist it's reactivity is completely unlike the pharmacodynamics of a substituted phenyl. It is also an enone, (It is probably toxic to the liver in the same way coumarin is) and it is only 2 of the 6 kavalactones that have the fully unsaturated ring. And it is still going to behave much differently and be metabolized differently than an aromatic ring.


If anything at all, this talk about enones and enolates in the context of pharmacodynamics, should imply the ACTIVITY of enones and enolates as drugs (possible covalent bonding to proteins, receptors) , Not as how their degree of aromaticity might make them behave similar to a phenyl ring

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I've given kava-kava short shrift here. A good Kava extract gives a pleasant euphoria and is noticeably empathogenic. It combines well with caffeine and Myristica fragrans tincture; the formula from the OP might benefit from the addition of some of my favorite phenylpropenes - perhaps the racetams do a similar job?

Mindlusion, you are right, not all the kavalactones have the fully unsaturated pyrone ring. Ring-opening for these compounds is none the less energetically unfavourable due to the stabilising effects of the six-membered ring and the Z-alkene in the ring. Either way, these 5,6-dihydropyrones are implicated in the troublesome side effects of prolonged, high-dose Kava-kava usage as they will tend to bind to proteins (and other nucleophiles). This is thought to be behind the keratosis observed in some heavy users.

That said, it seems to me the methoxy group which is also attached to the (dihydro)pyrone moiety will tend to reduce this effect fortunately making kavalactones less toxic than pyrones might be without such a methoxy group.

Are there any receptor-site studies for the kavalactones? The wiki implies they are GABA-A receptor positive allosteric modulators.

 

[dragonrider]

Woulnd't khat be the best "all natural" form of MDMA?

 

[woogyboogy]

Woulnd't khat be the best "all natural" form of MDMA?

Strangely enough Kanna, which Ive only consumed twice, has had a very similar body high as MDMA for me. The psychological rush of course wasnt as strong, btu still quite euphoric.

 

[Godsmacker]

MDMA is MDMA. There is no organism which naturally produces it AFAIK; if it doesn't have the same chemical/structural properties as MDMA, it's not MDMA.

Herbal xtc is funny because it's not MDMA or MDA; it's a bunch of herbs which some shyster chucked into a blender and sold to naive minors at a 1000% profit.

I didn't read this thread; too delirious to keep eyes open. I'm surprised I can type like this when I can barely maintain consciousness, let alone a stable line of sight with the blurring screen.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

MDMA is MDMA. There is no organism which naturally produces it AFAIK; if it doesn't have the same chemical/structural properties as MDMA, it's not MDMA.

Oh, it would be such a great day when the MDMA plant finally gets discovered. The principal carbon/oxygen backbone is found all over the place so, come on plant kingdom, get busy with those amination enzymes so we don't have to do it ourselves!

PS Godsmacker - go to the hospital!!

 

[Coja]

Good kava has an effect that's much more similar to low dose benzodiazapines and/or low dose alcohol (much more of a GABA receptor drug vs. the seratonin action of MDx compounds). I don't believe there's anything remotely like MDMA that's naturally produced (Sceletium sp. give a slight buzz and stimulation, nothing MDMA like IME), though methylone, the 5/6 - APB, and 5/6 -MAPB compounds are very close in effects without as much of the empathy/love flood of MDMA.

 

[theAlkēmist]

Low dose mescaline is pretty much identical to low dose MDA, slightly more lethargic then MDMA