Newbie Interested in Mystery Alkaloids

[adorno]

Since recently joining the Nexus (as a guest) I've been fascinated by all the interesting teks and ideas. I've also been surprised how nearly all available information about plant extractions, psychoactive alkaloids, etc., seems to have its origin right here! For example, the "official" scientific community can't seem to tell me anything about Mimosa tenuiflora the Nexus already hasn't.

Anyways, SWIM has begun playing around with about 300g of MHRB, he would like to see if he can isolate the the three famous alkaloids. There are teks to isolate N-Oxide, and teks to isolate "Jungle," but he can't seem to find a tek to isolate both. Would it look something like this? Something like the following... I've spent a little time pursuing the Nexus, trying as best I can to learn at the feet of the Infinite Beings (who are all surprisingly friendly and eager to help), but I am sure I have made many mistakes in this effort, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

GENERAL INFORMATION

DMT (N,N-Dimethyltryptamin)
SMILES: CN(C)CCc1c[nH]c2ccccc12
MWT: 188.269
XLOGP3: 2.5
PSA(A2): 19.03
AB/PKA (BASE): 9.10

DMT N-OXIDE (Dimethyltryptamine N-oxide)
Smiles: [O-][N+](C)(C)CCc1c[nH]c2ccccc12
MWT: 204.268
XLOGP3: 2.0
PSA (A2): 32.86
AB/PKA (Base): 4.80

"JUNGLE" ALKALOIDS (Likely some decomposition of YUREMAMINE)
SMILES: N/A
MWT: 350.1
XLOGP3: 2.56*
AB/PKA (BASE): 9.10*
AB/PKA (ACID): 9.00*
*With exception of mwt, values are from Yuremaine

SKATOLE (1,3-Dimethylindole)
SMILES: Cn1cc(C)c2ccccc12
Mwt: 145.201
XLOGP3: 2.36
PSA (A2): 4.93

I include this organic compound because SWIM hates it! His whole house has smelled like poop for the last week because of this bastard compound... (Is he the only one? Basifying MHRB is a smelly business!)

PROPOSED ISOLATION AND EXTRACTION TEK

1. Acidification:
2ml acetic acid for every 1g MHRB.
Simmer, stir 60 minutes.

2. Basification:
1g calcium hydroxide for every 2 g of MHRB.
Simmer, stir five hours, or until MHRB is
dark brown.

3. Non-Polar Pull:
1ml naphtha for every 1g MHRB.
Keep warm, stir 20 minutes.
Decant/collect naphtha. Repeat four times.

4. Polar Protic Pull:
Wash MHRB with water.
Fliter/collect water.

5. Second Non-Polar Pull:
2ml d-limonene for every 1g MHRB.
Stir, let sit a few hours.
Decant/collect d-limonene.

6. Acetylation:
1ml acetic acid for every 3ml d-limonene.
Mix, decant/collect acetic acid. Repeat four times.
1ml hot water for every 3ml d-limonene.
Mix, decant/collect hot water. Repeat twice.

6. Third Non-Polar Pull:
1ml warm toluene for every 1g MHRB.
Stir, let sit a few hours.
Decant/collect toluene.

8. Levigation:
Pulverize MHRB into a completely fine powder.

9. Desiccation:
Mix anhydrous magnesium sulfate with MHRB powder.
Spread out MHRB, leave until dry.

10. Polar Aprotic Wash:
Mix 10ml anhydrous acetone for every 1g MHRB.
Stir, let sit a few hours.
Filter/collect anhydrous acetone. Repeat four times.

11. Evaporation:
Evaporate naphtha (3) yielding freebase.
Evaporate water (4) yielding freebase.
Combine/evaporate water/acetic acid (6) yielding acetate.
Evaporate toluene yielding freebase.
Evaporate acetone (10) yielding freebase.

12. Conversion:
Convert acetate to freebase.

13. Isolation:
Isolate DMT/Skatole from full freebase with warm heptane.
Separate DMT N-Oxide from "Jungle" Alkaloids with d-limonene/DMSO mixture.

14. Conclusion:
Crystallize/Re-Crystallize DMT.
Add calcium carbonate to DMT N-Oxide.
Dry "jungle" alkaloids.

 

[obliguhl]

Wasn't there a thread a while back that the jungle component is actually DMT ?

 

[adorno]

That's the thing, it hasn't really been decided. From what I can gather, it is most likely the case, (though by no means definitive), that the primary active component of "jungle" spice is, in fact, DMT, but the trace impurity responsible for the red discoloration (from which no amount of pulling can seem to separate at least a certain remainder of DMT) is either an agonist or potentiator of DMT.

 

[endlessness]

What is the source for what you put as dmt n-oxide's pKa? Ive been trying to find it for this thread but couldnt, so if you can please point the source that would be appreciated.

What about skatole, is it just supposition because of the mimosa soup smell? I havent ever read any evidence about skatole being present in mimosa and neither about forming in high pH with mimosa's components, where did you get this idea from? Where would the methyl group in skatole come from, what starting product would it be generated from and how would that be happening simply in high pH? I would suppose the smell is from other things and has nothing to do with skatole. Anyways my mimosa soup never smelled of shit, sorry to say Doesnt smell good but it definitely doesnt stink up the whole house and neither really smell of shit. It smells of high pH 'something'

As for the red discoloration being an alkaloid, this is speculation, it can be also plant oils/fatty and organic acids, which are present too.

You can look here for the scientific analysis of jungle spice (yeah obli, its a sticky in the advanced chem subforum) :

Summary of jungle spice analytical work - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Also, you cant suppose its yuremamine because yuremamine will degrade in the conditions of an A/B. If its a decomposition product, it wont retain the same properties such as pka xlogp etc, it will be a completely different chemical so that data you posted of yuremamine wont be of use.

That whole extraction process you described seems to use way too many chemicals and there's some weird parts.. For example, surely in step 4 you mean wash the naphtha and not the MHRB, right? Because otherwise what sense is there? DMT freebase in mimosa wont be soluble in non-acidified water, so why do you think when you evap the water that washed the mimosa you'll get freebase?

Also why using acetone and toluene and limonene? And why doing that after naphtha? Isnt it much more logical to use just one of the more polar solvents and then later on recrystalizing with small amounts of naphtha to get the pure dmt? because otherwise you'll be using a lot of naphtha and there will still be dmt in your mimosa when you pull with limo/tolu, so you wont be separating anything like that, just using more solvent unnecessarily

and whats with the calcium carbonate to dmt n-oxide?

Arent you over-complicating yourself?

 

[adorno]

The source for DMT N-Oxide's PKA was:
http://146.107.217.178/lab/alogps/

The source on skatole being present in MHRB:
Erowid Online Books : "Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants, and analogs" by Keeper of the Trout
(The thing about the ph was, if one gets the ph of their solution to 14, it will destroy the skatole and many of other tannins).

The calcium carbonate and DMT N-Oxide was 69Ron's suggestion on how to make the yellow oil workable and smokable.

As for the extraction process being over needlessly complicated, of course, I'm just trying to learn through trial and error. The idea with the non-acidified water was that DMT N-Oxide is soluble in water, so maybe that particular pull would just pull N-Oxide. I didn't know I should've proceeded from polar to non-polar. My thinking was, by proceding from non-polar to polar, the more polar solvents would pull what the non-polar one's had left behind or missed in the MHRB... I'm definitely over complicating... And as for isolation, the more I read about it, the more I think I ought to tell SWIM to use zinc to convert N-Oxide. Because N-Oxide is just bad DMT right??

Anyways, how would SWIY proceed at this point: SWIY has the initial naphtha pulls nearly evaporated, the water pull sitting in a big jar, the vinegar from the d-limo pulls evaporating, and 1000ml of toluene presently mixed with your MHRB. The goal at this point being to extract everything you possibly can out of the MHRB. EVERYTHING!

 

[Gir]

Because N-Oxide is just bad DMT right??

There is no such thing as bad DMT.

by proceding from non-polar to polar

You are not doing this. You went non polar to polar to non polar, non polar..

8. Levigation: Pulverize MHRB into a completely fine powder.

and then your going to get near some basified rootbark with a pulverizer of some sort.

14. Conclusion: Dry Jungle alkaloid.

not possible.

I like all the information though. very nice.

-gir

 

[Ginkgo]

Because N-Oxide is just bad DMT right??

Nope, but it is an other substance than DMT. It has very similar effects, but yet different than DMT freebase. Some people prefer it over DMT, some people do not, and some people (including me) finds that both substances are equally interesting, even though they do have slightly different effects.

 

[adorno]

So what is the way to isolate "jungle" AND N-Oxide AND DMT from the same batch of freebase... SWIM is going to have a bunch of freebase, all pulled with different solvents, very soon...