NMT to DMT

[Saaaeif]

Hey everybody

I just stumbled upon a plant thats very widely available
Every part of it has Tyramines
Mainly NMT and some DMT
Called Arundo Dunax
The question now if there is a Tek that converts NMT to DMT?

Thanx everybody

 

[benzyme]

nope.

TEK means traditional enthogenic knowledge, it applies mainly to kitchen-friendly extraction procedures, and related techniques.
The NMT to DMT conversion is not a tek. it is an addition reaction, an advanced chemistry procedure. per Nexus rules, it isn't a discussed topic, because it's in the grey area of synthesis discussion of a scheduled/controlled substance.

 

[Saaaeif]

Thank you for tue knowledge

 

[benzyme]

I will say this.. the procedures have been pondered and discussed elsewhere, it is tricky because
those reactions tend to produce beta-carbolines (Pictet-Spengler cyclization).

on paper it looks straightforward, in practice, it's a different story.

 

[Saaaeif]

Oh i read abt Ch2O/HCooH "2nry amine methylation"
I thought it was simpler

 

[benzyme]

It certainly appears that way, I thought so too 10 years ago.
I think it has to do with the theory that the ethylamino moiety has rotatable bonds; addition reaction kinetics facilitate a conformational change favoring VDW intramolecular forces, i.e. ring closure.

 

[Mindlusion]

The Eschweiler-Clarke, which is the 'Ch2O/HCooH' reaction you mentioned seems wonderful because it avoids overmethylation, but is actually extra problematic because the formaldehyde is a necessary reactant in the Pictect-Spengler ring closure.

The simplest way would be to use an excess of a classical methylating reagent (the really nasty ones) to push as much of it towards the quaternary salt , and then with a reducing agent convert it to the tert amine.

I mean, sure, formic acid and formaldehyde aren't particularly toxic like typical methylating reagents, but they are pretty nasty I don't like to spend too much time around them. Certainly not 'foodsafe' or kitchen chemistry. Especially if your doing it in molten decomposing oxalic acid.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

NMT seems to have a certain utility as an entheogen anyway - why not try an extraction and see what the effects are? I haven't seen enough data to determine how phenomonolgically similar the drugs are, but if it turns out that DMT and NMT share substantial qualities, that would be a great breakthrough in-and-of itself.

Blessings
~ND

 

[pitubo]

But what about methods such as Reductive amination with zinc powder in aqueous media, where reductive amination is performed using Zn dust in aqueous KOH? Pictet-Spengler requires and acidic proton, no? Too bad the article doesn't do secondary to tertiary amines and doesn't list formaldehyde as a reagent, but the principle is interesting nonetheless.

 

[Saaaeif]

Hmmm.. so what do u guys prefer? To drop tge Arundo Dunax and jst get ACRB or Mimosa hostilis instead of all this?

 

[pitubo]

Purely for the purpose of research, arundo donax could be interesting. You'd need to have something like the TLC test kit to properly analyze the extract.

For the purpose of practical extraction and consumption, ACRB and MHRB are preferable.

 

[Saaaeif]

ThamX alot
Ill go with ACRB and Syrian Rue

 

[Mindlusion]

um, you know ACRB contains large amounts of NMT too right? NMT is actually the primary alkaloid in ACRB, DMT is second most abundant...


pitubo:

Thanks for the link, thats some cool stuff, zinc is one of my favorite metals it is unexpectedly capable of quite a lot. You can even use Zn in place of AlCl3 in a Friedel-Craft acylation.

There are some problems with the method for this purpose though, firstly they say this in the paper:

The list illustrates the significant applicability of this one-pot zinc-mediated reductive amination. Nevertheless the protocol showed some limitations with selected substrates: i) Secondary amines failed to give tertiary amines; ii) hindered primary amines (e.g., tert-butylamine and 1-aminoadamantane) did not react; iii) aminoesters reacted giving low yields of the corresponding carboxylic acid derivative (ester hydrolysis occurring even with tert-butyl esters).

and some more problems pointed out in the paper:

Although this combination appears to be plausible, its success is far from obvious: i) the reaction system is triphasic, resulting in complex and unpredictable phase dynamics of the involved chemical species; ii) the kinetics of the single processes may be mismatched, for example, imine formation may be slower than zinc oxidation by water; iii) carbonyl compounds are well-known to undergo different transformations under basic aqueous conditions, which may lead to extensive formation of byproducts.

So it doesn't seem like this will work. Would be worth the try I have most of what I need for the reaction on hand, just need to get some NMT.

But the way I look at it, introducing an aldehyde with a tryptamine, and NOT trying to do a pictet-spengler, is bad news. The indole REALLY likes to do the ring closure, its an irreversible step and powerful sink for the imine. It doesn't actually need an external source of protons to go, the indole can enolize at the 3-position, which is acidic.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

the indole can enolize at the 3-position, which is acidic

Yes, it is worth bearing in mind there's a reaction mechanism for the formation of carbolines via a spirocyclic intermediate - where the imine N-methylene group attaches to the indole 3-position. (It's not strictly enolization though, as there's no 'ol' to be had )

 

[Mindlusion]

the indole can enolize at the 3-position, which is acidic

Yes, it is worth bearing in mind there's a reaction mechanism for the formation of carbolines via a spirocyclic intermediate - where the imine N-methylene group attaches to the indole 3-position. (It's not strictly enolization though, as there's no 'ol' to be had )

tautomerize is the better word

 

[Saaaeif]

um, you know ACRB contains large amounts of NMT too right? NMT is actually the primary alkaloid in ACRB, DMT is second most abundant...

So what do u advise me?

 

[afahd]

You could try the arundo donax extraction for the purpose of experimentation and find yourself some ACRB or MH for spice.and practically ACRB is easier to find.

 

[Saaaeif]

Which is more preferred
ACRB or MHRB?
And whats the difference in the experience?

 

[pitubo]

Just go with the mimosa. It's a bit easier to extract pure dmt from. Once you have done that a few times, you can try acacia confusa for a change. Then you can also judge for yourself what the subjectively different experience may be.

 

[Saaaeif]

Thanx!