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Objective Vs Subjective

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metta-morpheus

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This is a discussion that I like getting lost in with my fellow travelers. What are people’s opinions on the landscape of hyperspace? Objective or subjective, that is, is it always the same, navigable landscape that we all go to, or is it subjective from person to person, that we all see it differently.
As I experiment more, I’m starting to lean towards objective. The art work and visuals put out across the world echo to a T some of the visuals I get. Some of the landscapes and architecture in dmt land are described in others trip reports as I see them. And a lot of my time there feels familiar and recognizable.

What are others thoughts on this?
 
Metta said:
This is a discussion that I like getting lost in with my fellow travelers. What are people’s opinions on the landscape of hyperspace? Objective or subjective, that is, is it always the same, navigable landscape that we all go to, or is it subjective from person to person, that we all see it differently.
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I think it might come down to a few things.

One being the person themselves - their biological makeup - from brain to body to everything that makes them who they are in the physical/biochemical sense [there's literally endless amounts of studies and talk in academia about all these things, just have to read the publications]. We all vary there, there's a mass of variables here that could lend influence to the experience - not in just how it may interface with the person as it's happening to them, but also their overall sensitivity to the experience.

I think the general overall aesthetic/landscape to the experience is more/less similar, but I think once one starts hitting those deeper waters - the ability of people to language/articulate it or describe it in any sufficient sense or any sort of completeness - begins to widen in margin. People vary so much in how they can articulate a given situation, especially when it comes to something like this.

I think being well-read and well-versed in a wide variety of topics and every-day life experiences can lend heavily to being able to articulate things better than others. This might sound somewhat elitist - but hey - it is what it is. Not everyone feels like reading a book per week, or let alone even a book per month, which is all fine and good. But I think not having a vast repository of knowledge/reading under your belt - that imo can really put a damper on 'what you get out've these experience' in terms of how you interpret it and relay it to others. Same can be said for individual life-experiences of things in the everyday - whether its relating to nature, travel, food, people/social - the list in this category could go on significantly.

Sure, articulation could come from other directions aside from the two listed up top, but imo I feel them to be a massive role in helping you interpret and relay these experiences.


Metta said:
As I experiment more, I’m starting to lean towards objective. The art work and visuals put out across the world echo to a T some of the visuals I get. Some of the landscapes and architecture in dmt land are described in others trip reports as I see them. And a lot of my time there feels familiar and recognizable.
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Yeah the whole objective/subjective thing is funny to me. People seem to rarely put definition to those two terms.

Sure the world, reality, and things we deem to have substance, solidarity, etc - objective, but as I've mentioned before this 'objective world' is contained within our everyday 'subjective' experience of it, no? This subjective experience of day to day consensus reality is built [speaking objectively here] from not just the equilibrium of neuro-hormones/transmitters and whatnot, but all the various sensory waves that comein to contact with our various senses - sight, sound, touch, etc - these all play a role in the sense of these being relayed through our nervous system to our brain - and in combination with all said above - the brain puts a navigable, continuous model of reality together that we experience.

With that said - we never get to see 'reality' beyond our sensory apparatus, we see what's constructed 'out there' from a tiny region inside our brains. So what's reality look like [or is] outside of our brains construction? What is 'out there'?

Then the whole mess of consciousness and where 'exactly' does it come from? Exact? To my knowledge this area of study is still mercurial and up in the air, no one knows definitively. So throwing the subject of consciousness in with the whole 'objective/brain/sensory' bit up top - things really get to be confusing it seems. I'd expect as much tbh with you.

Then throw in the whole topic of what the given 'particles' [wave-packets] of what constitutes the world and/or our perception of it - this whole topic in and of itself is incredibly profound and psychedelic in its own right imo. Even the fact that things feel/seem solid is due to this dance/swarm of electrons around the given atom/s [protons/neutrons, i.e. more wave packets] and their interactions with the dance of electrons in other given objects [wave packets in particular arrangements interacting with other wave packets in particular arrangements].

Then you have the ability of 'sight' and photons. That's a trip in and of itself too. Won't get into that.

Then you throw in the dmt experience with all this [or any reality-obliterative dose of psychedelic] - then the questions just stack up. They stack up pretty quickly ime.

Then there's the feelings one can get from these depths, which many here have felt, some to lesser degrees than others [as expected, we all vary, as I said above]. The feelings to me outweigh everything that I've 'seen' in these states. Though ime, most of the feelings were intrinsically embedded/enmeshed within 'what I was seeing'. One and the same ime. Some of those feelings are near impossible to shake, even after the pass of time [ as many here I know can vouch].
 
I like this discussion too=)

I agree with all of what Tatt said.

My thoughts are that visions are objective. On San Pedro I saw a vision that is exactly the avatar of a user here. After having the vision I wrote "10:31am: Meditated and with eyes closed saw flashes of rainbow light flicker for a minute or two. It seemed to be a smiling sun crying out vomit rainbows." If I ever find that image I'll upload it but that avatar is exactly the vision I had.

Now imagine there are a bunch of things like this. Dancing teddy bears, aliens in uni-suits. And these images are around, you can find them. So clearly we are seeing the same things. I mean, they told me I was gonna see jesters, and by god have I seen jesters. Fractal art is completley reminiscent of falling into hyperspace, the vortex. Many have reported the dome, and the buzzing. Serpents. Everyone sees this stuff.

More strong evidence is the egyptian link to the Acacia tree and the imagery and the pyramids, which all are a part of psychedelics. Further evidence is the white and black swirl used by hipnotist, and the black and white tile floors of masonry, all of which have a place of grand and sublime importance in hyperspace.

So this happenes when DMT goes into a human brain. Thats objective; this happens to many people who tale it. Its empirical knowledge that dmt has a personality, produces an effect, which will present itself to most people (and everyone is different.)

The idea that its subjective is nonsense. How can something real be subjective? If that is not real to you, you probably havent smoked it. It doesnt get more realer than this.
 
Tatt, I can’t figure out how to quote, but I wanted to touch on your last paragraph.
I agree with the “feeling” telling me more than any visual I’ve had. Most of my breakthroughs are on an emotional, feely kinda level, with color and detail vibrancy, and less other worldly type visions. Though the otherworldly visions seem similar to others descriptions, which like you said are subjective enough due to lack of way to articulate.
And I far from know the answer to the consciousness subject, but I understand the concept of reality being reflected by your senses. I listened to micheal pollan on joe rogan podcast give interesting insight on that. Bees see in electromagnetic vision or something along those lines, which means their physical reality as perceived is very different then ours. Which loops back to the objective thought. My back yard looks different from the bee to me, but what about from me to a being with “higher” senses than me, ie “dmt vision”. I subjectively 😉 think there is a reality that our senses are not capable of perceiving, that is objectively there.
Consciousness is a hell of a subject! So fun to ponder!
 
Gonna have to agree on objective. I’ve heard that the experiences are your brains desires and all that poop but I’ve literally seen artwork on the nexus that was nearly identical to the impossible images Ive seen when ive smoked dmt which a lot of the times are multidimensional... and I mean like really multidimensional... like if you google multidimensional shapes it looks like that kinda stuff... people who just try dmt recreationally with no idea what there doing still see these same impossible images... if at a certain point so many people all agree that they’re all seeing the same thing then what makes it any less real then anything else in existence. Shit seems pretty real to me and the other 50000 nexus members lol
 
Could the mixing of the senses in synesthesia have some consistency due to the fundamental similarities of the biological organism?

If I hear a note and someone else hears it we can both identify it so if I saw sound as patterns and they saw sound as patterns wouldn't the patterns be strongly conserved or similar?
 
I should clarify on what I mean when I say subjective experience.

When I say subjective experience I'm referring to the immediate ego/self/I's experience of consensus reality as it's being experienced moment to moment. I'm not putting any less validity to things when I use that term.

You could also call that - 'objective experience' too in my view, as everything being experienced has obvious objectivity/tangibility - which is in the immediate experience of the 'I' experiencing.

Another way I guess I could say it is that all phenomena - the exterior world around us, as the internal state - both are mental. In other words - it's all mind [i.e. It's all consciousness] So this is what I mean when I use the word subjective experience, as I'm not referring to things to have any less validity. Everything is contained within our mental experience of the world (our bodies which also occupy this space which we perceive are included).

Apologies if that doesn't seem to make sense. Gibran2 has a long thread on this very topic [many pages in that thread]. He paints a somewhat clearer picture regarding the subjective/objective bit.

So with that said up top - another way I could put it is that the subjectivity/objectivity are completely intertwined. There's no dichotomy in the sense of one being 'more valid or real than another'. Both seem to contain one another imo/ime.

Here's the thread I was referring to, which was a fascinating discussion on this very thing. Too bad many of those folks stopped posting [which is understandable given how these threads can typically go]:

The Improbaility of Hyperspace

Another old thread regarding this:

Culture: Objective Reality vs Subjective Reality




With that said I agree regarding the dmt experience being objective/real in every sense of the word, 100%. Many here over the years have mentioned how incredibly substantial and the level of profundity that can pervade the experience, especially a breakthrough.

I agree that many of the motifs and things experienced [that seem to be unique to vaporized dmt] are common among many folk. There seems to be many parallels that people experience. It's definitely fascinating.


A quote from the upanishads:

The world is neither real nor non-real, it's appearance
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Another example about senses being our perceivable reality, a subjective view on an objective space. I’m color blind, not full black and white, but I mix up red/green, blue/purple, ect. My eyes are receiving the same light wave lengths as everyone else. But my meat brain is interpreting them differently than most due to a difference in the rods and cones in my eyes. But the colors out there are objective. Always the same. But if I were to put on some of those colorblind glasses, then suddenly I’m perceiving the world as it more objectively as it is.
I feel dmt is the colorblind glasses. And we’re all colorblind... :?:
 
FranLover said:
Now imagine there are a bunch of things like this. Dancing teddy bears, aliens in uni-suits. And these images are around, you can find them. So clearly we are seeing the same things. I mean, they told me I was gonna see jesters, and by god have I seen jesters. Fractal art is completley reminiscent of falling into hyperspace, the vortex. Many have reported the dome, and the buzzing. Serpents. Everyone sees this stuff.
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What's usually predominant once I get in that place/space is the uni-suit bit. They'll sometimes be on the outside of the dome, scaling the space.

Though it's happened often that they'd make their way right up into my face. Then from that point it's typically endless architectural transitioning, dynamic and fluid, often changing themselves into pieces/parts of that dome/place, with some of their architectural representations just continually blowing my mind. Rarely for me are they static in how they're displayed.

Their architectural transitioning would oftentimes completely envelop my vision/this place - and would end up leading into entirely new architectural vistas, entirely new landscapes. All imbued with feelings that I can confidently say that I've never felt ever in the whole span of being alive. Things I could never articulate in any major sense of the word.

Though sometimes they don't shift out've that uni-suit appearance.

There were numerous times to where they stuck their arms within the front of my face, moving things around. The feeling/buzzing of their arms were entirely distinct from the rest of the vibratory qualities that made up that space. It was very distinct and clear as to what was happening. Crystal clear at the time.
 
Metta-Morpheus said:
Another example about senses being our perceivable reality, a subjective view on an objective space. I’m color blind, not full black and white, but I mix up red/green, blue/purple, ect. My eyes are receiving the same light wave lengths as everyone else. But my meat brain is interpreting them differently than most due to a difference in the rods and cones in my eyes. But the colors out there are objective. Always the same. But if I were to put on some of those colorblind glasses, then suddenly I’m perceiving the world as it more objectively as it is.
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Good way you explained in tandem of what I was saying above. :)
 
I also recognize much of the artwork of others from my personal experiences. That feeling of familiarity when you are inside. It does often feel like we are all just giving personal accounts of the same transpersonal thing. A quick scan of this forum attests to plenty of shared themes (jesters, insectoids, aliens, deities from various cultures, etc).

On the other hand, so many of our accounts are so strikingly different. Some of the content experienced inside is so deeply personal to our own lives and experiences, even if the theme itself may be shared. Encountering departed relatives is the big one that comes to mind, but also things like messages and warnings about people in our daily lives, or that merciless tryptamine schooling that forces us to face up to our own detrimental thoughts, actions, beliefs, and habits.

Some content is so deeply personal (call your mom she's been sad lately). Some is so powerfully transpersonal (Yes that was Nataraja dancing for you). Some of it is just so unfathomable, defying compression into human thought, let alone human language.

It's a multidimensional experience in the broadest possible definition of that word, these kind of either-or questions tend to fall flat before it, it fully encompasses the both-and. To me it comes across as some kind of multilayered holographic tapestry of universal, galactic, planetary, cultural, genetic, cellular, atomic, and spiritual information all presented as a work of art expressing a cosmic riddle that leaves me feeling late to the punchline.

Or maybe it's a just a child at play with colored balls. ;)
 
Objective and subjective....i think in terms of hyperspace it has to be both, or to put it differently, the terms have to be related. The objectivity in this sense is like the number 1, the subjectivity is like this particular instance of the number 1.

A better comparison would maybe be like language. We are all different, so you can never know for sure that we all interpret a given sentence in exactly the same way. But we are still able to have a conversation. We are able to have a conversation like this one here, that makes sense to all of us. So we all find the meanings of what people here are saying to be coherent with what other people are saying. We recognise something as a reply to what another person is saying, what one person is saying follows from what someone else said or is clearly related in what it's about, etc. And we all experience this here.

So there must be something objective about the meaning of all these sentences. Maybe it is just the way in wich meanings are being structured...but wouldn't that almost automatically mean that objectively speaking we are dealing with the same kind of meanings? We at least we recognise the kind of structures in wich information is provided. So these structures are the same for all of us, or they are not, but the way we respond gives us the impression they are, in wich case there has to be an overarching kind of structure that is, wich is very rigid and forcefull.
 
dreamer042 said:
Some is so powerfully transpersonal (Yes that was Nataraja dancing for you). Some of it is just so unfathomable, defying compression into human thought, let alone human language.

It's a multidimensional experience in the broadest possible definition of that word, these kind of either-or questions tend to fall flat before it, it fully encompasses the both-and. To me it comes across as some kind of multilayered holographic tapestry of universal, galactic, planetary, cultural, genetic, cellular, atomic, and spiritual information all presented as a work of art expressing a cosmic riddle that leaves me feeling late to the punchline.

Or maybe it's a just a child at play with colored balls. ;)
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Every sentence here, well said.

"Everything can fall flat before it" indeed.
 
Objective might be born out of the singular experience also known as subjectivity. Extreme subjectivity weaves multiple point of view into a non unique sensory propagation. That is: LOL. The Law of Objectivity and Laws.

Now that we have eluded to this most peculiar artifact, and its uncanny ripples in time, let us focus on the emitter and receiver of this outpouring outcome of information, the space time vessel known as body. Body is GOAT: Governor Overseeing the Astonishement Transpersonalisation.

Body, or GOAT, is the vessel of the programming S.U.B.J.E.C.T.I.V.I.T.Y ... buy I have forget what this one means. However, here's what my experience brought up as of understanding:

Spice allows one to dive inside the body, there is an unfolding inside one own physical realm. This purely merges with the psychic phenomena of consciousness, that is a result of merging of the senses.

It is "ways the energy flows". Though a very intuitive understanding at first, recent experience of bodily sensations, hyper sensibility of the points of energy have made me see this anew.

Let's say there is five primary point of energy. If each organ and member is connected to the whole body, because each part of the body is more or less like another, because all of them are derivative of one pattern, then those five primary energy points will be found in all different positions inside the body.

What has been called Nadis and Meridians are very subtle physical sensations, extremely subtles. The mind is another extremely sensitive physical operative system. As such, the best way for the mind to be aware of the body is through this energy patterns. We are all familiar on some extent of those, some very sensitive people have made an art and science these understandings.

In this regard, Spice can be understood as supra luminic travel (in the sense of energy) through the body. The mind is exploring different areas of the body. Each of these areas is governed by basic geometric patterns relative to the arrangement of those primordial dots and their declination, exploring those areas might allow projection of psychic content relative to the part of the body, may it be because of its association to an emotion or where tension has been locked. The mind takes the form of what is felt and experienced, may it be microscopic a pattern.

Those points are like wavering suns, veins of them flowing within us. When you experience the flow and sudden connections of those dots between them, it's like if every part of your body, all the dots where music notes and a symphony was being played at the speed of a galactic caroussel speed up to an eleven, a giant fractal wave of infinite rriples and tinier waves being woven through the GOAT.

As you experience this flow, it is as the body may be in movement outside of itself. Because you are in a state of synesthesis, what you are feeling is being layed out in front of you, and because your focus is nor perfect nor restraint, as it may be that it just stops being, your mind fuses with this visual expression of your own self.

As evoked earlier, the content the mind associates with specific regions of the body may be common to some people if not all. It functions as meditation as far as I can tell, only it is "all at once" and you are not simply sitting observing your thoughts, those have been merged in a continuum fracture to the substance of your being on atomical and antinomical level of the architecture of proto-thoughts(well, that surely didn't mean anything anyone's about to understand ...); we are aware of so few of what we are, what the body is that it is alien to to us. Its complexity is beyond understanding and the realm feelings and sensations beyond words. An uncanny temple, a rotatory spaceship of intertwined fluxed. This lack of understanding, at least non intuitive, is not meant to be pejorative or a flaw, it is simply the way things are.

Maybe this still but extremely dynamic and highly aware perception of one self evokes time of earlier infancy or prenatal eons. Times of creations may be associated with mythical event and, in a state of hyper pattern recognition enhancement, associated to those of the world around us.

Those veins of energy within one self is like a tree. That is, if you observe a cat or bird, those primordial dots, the five of them (one head, two arms and two legs) are arranged relatively the same. So it is easy to understand and project into, but in a tree or a plant, those dots are arranged very differently. It is a bit harder to relate - that is if you're not used to being funky, and, if you do not know how to gaze inside - or, to recognize that the structures of the trees and the plants is this same structure you can feel within you. Being afraid of the forest is like being afraid of the wooden floor under the carpet, it more definitely is real and the carpet serves a purpose too. So for kids it might be troubling to eat vegetables nowadays.

The thing is, you've been shown all possibles ways to arranges these five dots which give birth to infinite numbers of dots that are arranged inside of the you. So what some do is they start dancing, singing or doing weird stretching exercises. And it's all the same five dots positioned differently in time and space to express something, because it is not devoid of mind, not devoid of projection - or trauma if you will - and because it makes ripples.

Then you might take tour five fingers and create with them all possible patterns you could, and it will still be the same five dots spread differently in time and space. But because those five dots are linked to the rest of your body, it has an effect. Because when you sing, you stimulate those dots and certain region of the body vibrates more than others as they are linked to your throat and the way it is contracted, how sound is carried, it has an effect. There is a direct drive, the link is organical.

All technology might seek to recreate this, to extend the dots if you will, so this innerlogy that overclocks the mind-body relationship to its fullest potential surely ought to be considered a very advanced technology. It's very practical in a sense. That is my understanding of it at least. It's inside out, you feel those inside of yours come alive, that parts of you hidden that is alike the world outside. And out the window another lunatic goes, in the grass.

POP EYE SAYS EAT YOUR SPINACH KIDS
 
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