OK, major life change-methadone and kratom.

[null24]

So, things in my little world are advancing swiftly and nicely. I've been reticent to report for many reasons, the least if which not being a fear of failure. Among the changes going on now are the fact that my homeless stint ( of four years) is over, and I've found an awesome situation that affords me the ability to chase some big dreams, and that I walked away from methadone, after nearly five years, three clinics, and two very short "survival/maintenance runs on heroin in between those clinics. ( which were long ago and which I was silent about at the time)

So, it's been a month since I last dosed and the post acute symptoms are bearable but FREAKING ANNOYING! Covered in sticky cold sweat, achy, RLS, fatigue. And a burning sensation that feels like a hole in my brain where the feel good used to be.

So, I'm trying kratom. Red bali strain. I just drank a heaping teaspoon in the juice of a whole grapefruit with a lump of raw sugar about an hour ago and... I'm not sure, but it may be working. I am clear enough to write this, and have an almost benzo like anxiolytic state going on, seems like if I move my head and body it initiates a wave of the sensation. Hmmm.

It'd be awesome if I could use this to work my way thru this stage, and not experience another special hell through it. Is this valid hack?

 

[UgraKarma]

Kratom was never a long term solution for me when I was trying to get myself off of heroin. I went for a long while using only poppy pod tea, but sometimes I'd screw up with the mailorder of poppy pods and would try to use kratom to help things until my delivery arrived. I think most of its action was indeed operating as a placebo, allowing me to say "Well, I'm very, very sick...but imagine how sick I'd be if I didn't take the kratom."

I'm currently on suboxone maintenance so cannot speak to best methods of coming off of a maintenance program altogether, but am planning on trying ibogaine treatment at the end of this year. In reading quite a bit of literature on it as I've tried to decide whether it was worth it to travel, or to simply ingest it at home with a friend watching me (I've opted for travel,) I've read quite a few stories of people "micro-dosing" ibogaine for its properties in aiding relief from withdrawal, without taking enough to act as a full bore psychedelic. Mind you I've not tried this, but I'd think it might be worth looking into as it seems more likely a better solution than kratom.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

As I'm sure you know, kratom is an opiate drug, so it's possible that you may just be subbing one dependancy for another. Kratom is generally considered to be easier to kick though, so perhaps it's worth it for you. In general though, if your goal is to be totally clean (and I'm making an assumption there that you should feel free to correct), I would go easy on the Kratom.

It can certainly be useful, but definitely keep an eye on it. If you're in the PAWs stage, I would suggest soldiering on without it, if possible, but, it's your body.

Blessings
~ND

 

[null24]

Practical user: yes ibogaine very much interests me. I recently found out about someone who facilitates it nearby, so a passport isn't necessary, but there's still a financial hurdle. Still, it is something in my future. It seems to be a sort of All-medicine, and at the least, very powerful. I mean good god just look at the molecule!

Natty: I'm very aware this may not be a "valid hack". There are shortcuts, but you can't get around it, to get over it, ya gotta go thru it, to paraphrase the late great pigpen of the grateful dead. That said, I'm really just looking for something for when I get to a breaking point,a way to get some air before I go under again. Shit, it's not that bad, just annoying.

And yes, complete liberation is the goal. I feel great several hours after the dose reported in the OP, and think ill use this sparingly, like I do acetaminophen, only when it hurts really bad.

It's getting better every day, btw. I was reluctant to reportas I said out of fear of failure, but have confidence that I'm out if the woods. If I can do this, I feel safe in saying anyone can.

 

[SpartanII]

As I'm sure you know, kratom is an opiate drug, so it's possible that you may just be subbing one dependancy for another.

Kratom is not an opiate. A few of its alkaloids are partial agonists of the mu- and delta-opioid receptors, but it contains no alkaloids from papaver somniferum (poppy plant).

Erowid Kratom Vault: Basics

A summary of basic information about Kratom and its use.

www.erowid.org

Being relatively weak in effects compared to traditional opiates, I highly doubt it could replace a full agonist addiction like methadone, especially considering it seems to have a "ceiling effect" where taking more of it won't increase the euphoria.

Kratom contains the NMDA antagonist rhynchophylline, which can prevent the build-up of tolerance therefore possibly reducing the potential for addiction.

Kratom Information Thread - Other Psychoactives - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Rhynchophylline - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Inhibition of opiate tolerance by non-competitive N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor antagonists - PubMed

Our laboratory and others have previously reported that the non-competitive N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist, MK-801, interferes with the development of tolerance to the analgesic effects of morphine. The present studies were performed in order to further characterize the role of...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Kratom has anxiolytic and anti-depressant qualities as well which I've found helpful in managing PAWS, however, as with many things in life, if you depend too heavily on it, it can become a crutch.

I used it to come off of heroin and methadone with excellent results. I've also used it for long-term maintenance and have found that as long as you don't abuse it and taper when you're ready to come off it, the withdrawal is very minor, if at all present.

 

[DMT_Tom]

I have never used opiates.

But I used kratom and got HOOKED on it. It definitely works. I would dose myself 3 times a day after my tolerance increased by probably 10 fold of the original effective # of pills. I would take them to avoid withdrawals, not getting high anymore after a month of daily use.

I think Kratom is a great taper solution. It's much easier to kick when you need to, I would think.
Exercise is the only thing that helped me quit Kratom - the natural endorphins really cured my aching need for them, since I was getting them primarily through Kratom.

 

[null24]

As I'm sure you know, kratom is an opiate drug, so it's possible that you may just be subbing one dependancy for another.

Kratom is not an opiate. A few of its alkaloids are partial agonists of the mu- and delta-opioid receptors, but it contains no alkaloids from papaver somniferum (poppy plant).

Erowid Kratom Vault: Basics

A summary of basic information about Kratom and its use.

www.erowid.org

Being relatively weak in effects compared to traditional opiates, I highly doubt it could replace a full agonist addiction like methadone, especially considering it seems to have a "ceiling effect" where taking more of it won't increase the euphoria.

Kratom contains the NMDA antagonist rhynchophylline, which can prevent the build-up of tolerance therefore possibly reducing the potential for addiction.

Kratom Information Thread - Other Psychoactives - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Rhynchophylline - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Inhibition of opiate tolerance by non-competitive N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor antagonists - PubMed

Our laboratory and others have previously reported that the non-competitive N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist, MK-801, interferes with the development of tolerance to the analgesic effects of morphine. The present studies were performed in order to further characterize the role of...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Kratom has anxiolytic and anti-depressant qualities as well which I've found helpful in managing PAWS, however, as with many things in life, if you depend too heavily on it, it can become a crutch.

I used it to come off of heroin and methadone with excellent results. I've also used it for long-term maintenance and have found that as long as you don't abuse it and taper when you're ready to come off it, the withdrawal is very minor, if at all present.

Thank you. It is an interesting plant and will be a useful tool. You are right about it not filling in completely for a total agonist but I can feel partial agonism taking place. While there's no euphoria It seems to relieve RLS, a good chunk of anxiety, it's still apparent there's a region going thru a healing process thats not been touched by it. I woke up this morning at 3 AM which is right around the nine hour mark after my last dose and this morning the symptoms ive been experiencing are mild. I think the stuff may work. I'm not trying to eat it every day though.

 

[Jin]

harmalas can help , its especially beneficial if combined with low doses of DMT ,

perhaps after tapering off kratom , it would be wise to drink rue everyday for a few days

even after tapering off using kratom sometimes might not be bad atall , like once a week or month thing , as long as its not used as a crutch

 

[null24]

I've worked with rue, experimenting with its serotonin increasing properties, and wasn't too thrilled with the result. I head pretty serious medication resistant depression issues, and thought it would help, but it just increased aggression to the point of rage. I posted here about it.

As an adjunct to smoalking, it's beautiful. Thanks, I may pick some up today. I want to perform a manske for the first time on some to add to my next acacia extract.

Looking real forward to some post methadone lift offs.

As far as kratom, I'm going to lay off today. It does help with most of what I'm experiencing, but man, no sleep. Doesn't touch the sleep. :x

 

[SpartanII]

As far as kratom, I'm going to lay off today. It does help with most of what I'm experiencing, but man, no sleep. Doesn't touch the sleep. :x

I feel your pain, null.

It takes time for your sleep chemistry/patterns to get normalized after long-term opiate use.

I will offer one tip, but use it at your own discretion, for it can be like walking on thin ice: Since kratom is mildly stimulating and only lasts for 4-6 hours, it usually won't hold you long enough to get a good night's sleep. Therefore, what I used to do was to use kratom during the day to give me energy and withdrawal relief, then use a small amount of poppy seed tea an hour or two before bedtime.

The long-lasting effects of the opium cocktail will hold you good for 8-12 hours, and as long as you only take a small amount and not enough to get high, you will minimize the chances of addiction. Keep in mind this takes a lot of willpower, and the only reason I mention it is because it sounds like your resolve to be addiction-free is strong, and I know how frustrating it can be to wake up every hour, dead tired yet too anxious to relax...not to mention how important sleep can be in healing and rejuvenating your body and mind for dealing with the symptoms of PAWS.

Use this method only as a last resort, if you've been really struggling with the sleep problems of PAWS, after you've tried natural sleep-inducing supplements and techniques, and you feel you have built up enough emotional energy and intent to stay out of the addiction cycle.

Poppy tea is not something you want to get hooked on. Its ease of availability combined with it's potentially powerful and long lasting effects and subsequent drawn out withdrawal symptoms can make it a special kind of hell to try to quit if you get addicted to it, but it can be used strategically with responsibility and moderation.

 

[Jees]

...the fact that my homeless stint ( of four years) is over, and I've found an awesome situation that affords me the ability to chase some big dreams,...

Yieehh :thumb_up:

 

[Continuum]

Kratom was invaluable to me and someone I'm very close to in getting off methadone. In both cases we stepped down at the clinic, and in his case he started using kratom during the drop. Like you, it helped with just about everything except the sleep deprivation.

We both still take kratom daily, but the side effects are very minimal and I experience very little symptoms if I skip a day or reduce dose for several days. Withdrawal from kratom is absolutely nothing compared to dope or methadone, even crap like tramadol, but it is psychologically addictive if you're so predisposed.

Play around with strains if you decide to keep with it. I like the green veins, while he likes the white and reds. Different vendors also seem to have varying qualities of products, so play around with that a bit too.

It's so great to hear that you've found a place to stay and are taking the leap into no more methadone. Please feel free to reach out if you need anyone to talk with about it. It can be a lifesaver just to have someone who's been there to give moral support on the hard days.

 

[○]

We both still take kratom daily, but the side effects are very minimal and I experience very little symptoms if I skip a day or reduce dose for several days. Withdrawal from kratom is absolutely nothing compared to dope or methadone, even crap like tramadol, but it is psychologically addictive if you're so predisposed.

This.

I had worked with kratom for several years after quitting heroin (insufflating). As many have said here - it's invaluable in that respect. But that aside, for me, I definitely had a psychological addiction with it. The physical W/D after coming off of using it daily for several years wasn't all that bad, aside from 3-4 days of sneezing, some chills, and rough sleep patterns. But even so, that was nothing at all compared to the former. There's physical symptoms after stopping kratom, but they are relatively minor. Everyone will handle those aspects differently though, so there's that. The post-effects after stopping kratom obviously depend on the individual and their dosages/pattern of use.

It's unfortunate that kratom gets a bad rap. It's a very misunderstood plant and it's a powerful medicine when used in certain contexts. It needs more research. It's a plant, not some inherently evil force holding you hostage or toting a gun to your head. As with most psychoactives, it has a range of effects upon quitting, that relative to the individual, can be minor or worse.

These situations where people go through W/D from kratom, it comes to say alot about the individual and their mentality with specific substances, rather than the plant itself. The plants benign in and of itself. I was in this category though of people, to where plants/substances like this were my weakness. We all have them. I dare say that I still entertain the notions of these types of things, but the distance between me and these substances has drifted quite a ways apart.

Sorry for the rant. Somewhat a ways from the OP. A few words you said struck a few chords. I sympathize with people that use it. I've been there.

 

[null24]

Ha ha, it's all good, Tatt, thanks for the words. Same to you guys continuum and jees. It's been a long road but I feel I'm finally out if the woods. Still haven't written anything about because I'm letting it all sink in.

But yeah, the kratom is very helpful. I don't experience any euphoria, and like I said, it's not helping with sleep so I don't see myself developing a dependency on it. But it is proving to be a good tool for the MMRX W/D. I can use it when I need to do some work or something and have an acceptable level of comfort and efficacy. Good stuff, I'm so glad it's easily available.

SpartanII, I had thought of poppyseed tea, but I can't really talk here about the issue surrounding it. I did try to make some with bulk seeds, but they seemed to be washed, there was no pod matter, no smell to the seeds. I just used cold water without acid (duh), and only yielded the white latex/fat stuff and didn't drink. While that preperation interests me as a conscious way to access an opiate space, it's probably too euphoric to be if assistance right now.

It's nice to be able to breathe.

 

[Spiralout]

I've been using kratom for about 5 months to stay away/get off of heroin. My heroin use was on and off for 7 years. Recently a few days ago I did heroin but have no intention of doing it again; the negatives outweigh the positives by far.

Kratom definitely helps me with withdrawal from "regular" opiates and I do go through some minor withdrawals when I don't take it although I think those withdrawals are more mental than physical. Right now I'm at a point where I'm trying to kick the kratom; I used the last of what I had last night and don't feel great today (low energy and depression) so I may end up getting a little more kratom to take in low doses for the next few days and taper off in a more defined way.

It definitely seems to take the edge off.Glad your on the other side man.

 

[null24]

Chilling on the kratom now. Feel okay, lacrimating and yawning excessively - can't catch my breath yawns- and NO FREAKING SLEEP. I mean seriously, I just lay there all night, too exhausted to even think.

Endless gratitude extends from me in regard to lack of RLS and the fact I'm at least in a great mood and my life circumstance continues on a good path. But shit, I need to sleep! Maybe have three hours in the last five days. ! I'm considering taking some xanax.

Got any non habituating advice?

 

[SpartanII]

Chilling on the kratom now. Feel okay, lacrimating and yawning excessively - can't catch my breath yawns- and NO FREAKING SLEEP. I mean seriously, I just lay there all night, too exhausted to even think.

Endless gratitude extends from me in regard to lack of RLS and the fact I'm at least in a great mood and my life circumstance continues on a good path. But shit, I need to sleep! Maybe have three hours in the last five days. ! I'm considering taking some xanax.

Got any non habituating advice?

Xanax can be habituating as I'm sure you know.

Have you tried herbal/natural sedatives like skullcap, valerian, kava kava, 5-htp, melatonin, magnesium, etc.?

Exercise during the day can help tire you out. Combine that with a hot epsom salt bath and some natural sleep-aids right before bedtime and that might do the trick...

 

[null24]

Yes I'm extremely aware of the dangers of benzos. :!:

Thanks for the tips, honestly, I've yet to explore many of those. Valerian is a good idea.

Thanks again, to all who've supported me thru this.

 

[Tryptallmine]

Chilling on the kratom now. Feel okay, lacrimating and yawning excessively - can't catch my breath yawns- and NO FREAKING SLEEP. I mean seriously, I just lay there all night, too exhausted to even think.

Endless gratitude extends from me in regard to lack of RLS and the fact I'm at least in a great mood and my life circumstance continues on a good path. But shit, I need to sleep! Maybe have three hours in the last five days. ! I'm considering taking some xanax.

Got any non habituating advice?

If you really need to get some sleep, chamomile and passionflower tea half an hour before bed will help ease the body into it. Stay away from computer screens and read a book or something that doesn't involve a tonne of artificial light.

Alternatively, I'm not sure which part of the world you're in, but Doxylamine Succinate - an over the counter sleep-aid (antihistamine) generally puts me out for the count harder than most benzodiazepines and is non-addicting. However it's not recommended to use for more than 10 consecutive days. It has a few 'brand' names, Dozile, Restavit, Unisom SleepTabs.

They come in 25mg and 50mg preparations. Half of a 25mg tablet is usually more than enough for me for a sleepless night. If you take a full 25mg be prepared to feel fairly groggy in the morning but relatively well rested. A shower, coffee and good meal in the morning should pull you to wits.

Doxylamine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org