Ololiuqui(?) Debate

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

Hello, I am new to posting in DMT-Nexus, but I am a long-time viewer of these forums and MANY other similar forums.
I was reading a thread by Entropymancer on the History of LSA seeds and plants. History of morning glory seeds (and other psychoactive bindweeds) - LSD, LSA, LSH - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
Many historical accounts of Ololiuqui report more similarities to tropane-alkaloid effects, rather than LSA effects.
I think that you should take everything with a grain of salt.
So, I am raising the debate of the TRUE identity of Ololiuqui.
Here is an incomplete Excel Spreadsheet I made, in an attempt to compare Tropane Alkaloid containing plants, Ololiuqui, and LSA containing plants. https://anoniem.org/?https://www.mediafire.com/?rdi5403bwbr4fma
Here is my Introduction Essay also attempting to raise this same debate. Hi. - Introduction Essay - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
I am aware that I don't have enough data to support my claim that Ololiuqui is NOT Rivea Corymbose.
However, I am raising the topic so we can come to better understand the similarities and differences.
I am open to constructive criticism, that is the purpose of this thread!
So what are your thoughts on Ololiuqui?

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Duration and LSD like action seem contrary to tropane effects.

 

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

Duration and LSD like action seem contrary to tropane effects.

I didn't see anything about a duration.
Also, elaborate on the LSD-like actions.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Tropane alkaloids typically have a duration acting longer than Ololiuqui.

Many people doubt that the effects of Ololiuqui are due to LSA though, Shulgin for example did not seem to think so.

As far as LSD like action, Ololiuqui and Ipomoea tricolor are known to be able to cause LSD like effects, extremely colorful and visual kaleidoscopic patterns overlaying the visual field and very intense when eyes are shut.

LSA does not appear to cause the effects associated with either, there is no doubt there.

 

[jamie]

That spread chart..is based on quotes from a missionary. Not the best sorce. I dont know what to say really other than your lacking any really compelling evidence. I think rivea corymbosa is a better candidate at the moment. A high dose of LSA can be a lot of the things on that list also, IME...plus Rivea Corymbosa is still used by indigenous peoples of the area.

You cant really rely on the reports from catholic missionaries as observers..for reasons I assume are obvious.

 

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

Tropane alkaloids typically have a duration acting longer than Ololiuqui.

Many people doubt that the effects of Ololiuqui are due to LSA though, Shulgin for example did not seem to think so.

As far as LSD like action, Ololiuqui and Ipomoea tricolor are known to be able to cause LSD like effects, extremely colorful and visual kaleidoscopic patterns overlaying the visual field and very intense when eyes are shut.

LSA does not appear to cause the effects associated with either, there is no doubt there.

Where are you getting this description that implies Ololiuqui produces colorful visual kaleidoscopic patterns, and the duration?
Can you please show me the document...
I must really be missing something here.

 

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

That spread chart..is based on quotes from a missionary. Not the best sorce. I dont know what to say really other than your lacking any really compelling evidence. I think rivea corymbosa is a better candidate at the moment. A high dose of LSA can be a lot of the things on that list also, IME...plus Rivea Corymbosa is still used by indigenous peoples of the area.

You cant really rely on the reports from catholic missionaries as observers..for reasons I assume are obvious.

The spreadsheet is based off many different observers and analyzes MANY different subjects, like medical uses, psychoactive effects, spiritual significance...
Almost all of the historical information I have analyzed regarding Ololiuqui can be found in Entropymancer's thread. (see original post for link)
I don't know of any other documents describing Ololiuqui but I would love to see them!
Also, can you point me to compelling evidence that points to Rivea Corymbosa as Ololiuqui.
I clearly see more evidence AGAINST R. Corymbosa being Ololiuqui, rather than it being correct.

 

[Entropymancer]

First, thank you for raising this question regarding the identity of ololiuhqui. Upon reflection, I see that the identification of this plant as Turbina corymbosa has become so broadly accepted that its validity remains largely unexamined in modern literature.

I would like to see the identification receive a rigorous examination, but I fear I haven’t the time to investigate the subject in so much depth right now. Instead, I will share a couple of thoughts and point toward some sources that I think merit some consideration in this regard.



A couple of thoughts

On the basis of the effects attributed to ololiuhqui, you suggest that a plant containing tropane alkaloids, particularly a nightshade, would be a good candidate. I am skeptical on that point, primarily on the basis of the physical descriptions of the plant. Hernández and Sahagún both seem to refer to a vine or bindweed both in their descriptions (e.g. “slender”, “twining”) and in their drawings (contained in the “History of morning glory seeds” thread). Neither of these descriptions bears the slightest resemblance to a plant in the family Solanaceae.

I would also caution against over-interpreting descriptions of psychoactive effects that come to us from cultural contexts that differ drastically from our own. Cultural context plays a substantial role in creating the subjective experience of psychoactive drugs. The effects described in older texts are informative, but also to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when reported second- or third-hand by someone who has not experienced the drug and is approaching the subject from a different cultural context (e.g. a missionary).



Other sources

Note: Some of the sources listed below are in Spanish or German. This may help account for the lack of robust discussion of their contents in English-language publications.

One category of sources not included in the “History of morning glory seeds” thread is the material from the Inquisition archives. Gonzalo Aguirre Beltrán draws heavily on Inquisition sources in his Medicina y Magia and will likely prove to be the most accessible source of these accounts. He discusses ololiuhqui on pages 126-133, referencing many Inquisition records and quoting passages from several of them in his footnotes. This should go a long way toward fleshing out the data on the historical side of things.

Manuel Urbina is credited with being the first to identify ololiuhqui as the plant we now know as Turbina corymbosa. Reading his original arguments would probably be informative. He has two publications associated with this identification. Thanks to the magic of Google Books, both are available for free download:
1897 - Catálogo de Plantas Mexicanas (Fanerógamas) (Link)
1903 - El peyote y el ololiuhqui (pages 25-48 of volume 7 of the Anales del Museo Nacional: Link)

Blas Pablo Reko supported Urbina’s identification. In “De los Nombres Botánicos Aztecas” (1919), he offhandedly remarks that ololiuhqui refers to the plant we now know as T. corymbosa without providing any arguments or justifications. I presume that he discusses the issue further in his 1934 article “Das mexikanische Rauschgift Ololiuqui” [published in El Mexico Antiguo 3(3-4): 1-7], but I haven’t been able to acquire that paper.

There are also early-20th century sources arguing for the identification of ololiuhqui as Datura sp., which could be interesting. Ott laughs these off in Pharmacotheon, but Ott has laughed off other sources that, on closer examination, bore some surprising and valid information.
* Safford, W.E. 1915. An Aztec narcotic. Journal of Heredity 6(7): 291-311. [Available online: Link][Edit: Schultes says this paper does not identify ololiuhqui as Datura; see a few posts down. I have not read this paper and am merely reproducing Ott's citation.]
* Hartwich, C. 1911. Die Menschlichen Genussmittel: Ihre Herkunft, lkrbreitung, Geschichte, Anwendung, Bestandteile und Wirkung. Chr. Herm. Tauschnitz, Leipzig, Germany. [Available in snippet view, but not for full reading or download, through Google Books: Link]


As always, when it comes to the subject of ololiuhqui, it would be nice to be able to read Richard Evans Schultes’ “A Contribution To Our Knowledge Of Rivea Corymbosa; The Narcotic Ololiuqui Of The Aztecs” (1941), but it remains elusive unless you have deep pockets or live near the right university. There’s a used copy selling for £195 (plus shipping and handling). I haven’t had any luck borrowing it through interlibrary loan, but there are some universities in the US that own the title. Perhaps an enterprising bibliophile might visit one and scan the contents.




That’s all that comes immediately to mind. Happy hunting!

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

A lot of the same points can be raised regarding descriptions of Peyote and San Pedro cactus, which were described often as causing delirium and madness and causing visions that could easily be equated with datura intoxication.

though in some cases Datura was added to San Pedro based preparations.

 

[blue_velvet]

As always, when it comes to the subject of ololiuhqui, it would be nice to be able to read Richard Evans Schultes’ “A Contribution To Our Knowledge Of Rivea Corymbosa; The Narcotic Ololiuqui Of The Aztecs” (1941), but it remains elusive unless you have deep pockets or live near the right university. There’s a used copy selling for £195 (plus shipping and handling). I haven’t had any luck borrowing it through interlibrary loan, but there are some universities in the US that own the title. Perhaps an enterprising bibliophile might visit one and scan the contents.

Looks like someone already did: A Contribution to our Knowledge of Rivea Corymbosa; The Narcotic Ololiuqui of the Aztecs

 

[Entropymancer]

Outstanding! Thank you for the link.

 

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

First, thank you for raising this question regarding the identity of ololiuhqui. Upon reflection, I see that the identification of this plant as Turbina corymbosa has become so broadly accepted that its validity remains largely unexamined in modern literature.

I would like to see the identification receive a rigorous examination, but I fear I haven’t the time to investigate the subject in so much depth right now. Instead, I will share a couple of thoughts and point toward some sources that I think merit some consideration in this regard.

Thank you for contributing useful info.
If I hadn't read your thread I would've never raised this question! Amazing thread!
Anyways, I don't really have the time to investigate this either.
I still stand behind my belief that Ololiuqui was a deliriant.
I hope someone can establish a solid foundation for the ACCURATE IDENTIFICATION of Ololiuqui, rather than just blindly accept it to be Turbina Corymbosa.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

We know it was seed that was drunk somehow.
What of the name?
Doesn't it mean round things?
Datura seeds are flattened somewhat round but not very.

The dauta seed intoxication has a very long duration and often results in visual issues for a few days.

Traditionally datura flowers are used far more than the seeds.

The seed is round and very much like coriander

this description is at odds with datura, but very much like Turbina corymbosa which is rather round.

While the interpretation of the accounts supports delirium, perhaps that reflects a view that any visionary effects are delirious?

 

[Entropymancer]

Some comments in light of Schultes 1941:

Schultes indicates that Safford 1915 (linked above, cited by Ott as identifying ololiuhqui as a Datura species) in fact does not make that claim. He merely refutes Urbina’s identification on the grounds that no Convolvulaceae are known to be psychoactive. Since we now know that there are indeed psychoactive Convolvulaceae, that argument crumbles. Schultes tells us that Safford did go on to identify ololiuhqui as Datura meteloides in a later article [1917. Food plants and textiles of ancient America. Proceedings of the 19th International Congress of Americanists. pp. 12-30. Link thanks to Google Books].

Schultes tells us that Hernández (1651) did compare the effects of ololiuhqui to a solanaceous plant, Solanum maniacum (a historical name which seems to correspond to some species of Datura, possibly D. metel), but he also compared the effects to Papaver and Cannabis. Taken together, those comparisons cover a lot of possible ground; I would suggest that they call into question the accuracy and precision with which the effects were described to him.

Schultes also remarks on the work of a Mexican botanist, Maximino Martínez, who initially accepts that ololiuhqui is an convolvulaceous plant, but rejects the identification of T. corymbosa based on seed characteristics, suggesting instead that it might be a species of Ipomoea. Schultes does not engage with the seed characteristic argument because Martínez reversed himself and accepted the T. corymbosa identification four years later.

I think Schultes failure to engage with the seed characteristic argument is telling. Based on the accounts of early writers (mostly chronicled in the “History of morning glory seeds” thread), the evidence is overwhelming that the plant (coaxihuitl [snake-plant]; coatl-xoxouhqui [green snake]) from which ololiuhqui seeds are harvested is a vine, in all likelihood in the family Convolvulaceae. The “long white flower” description from Hernández certainly appears to support a Convolvulaceae identification. To assert that the plant is anything other than a vine or creeper would require a radical reinterpretation of the primary sources, and considering the independent agreement among those sources, I do not think any such reinterpretation is justified.

What remains less clear is why ololiuhqui must specifically be T. corymbosa. The argument, never explicitly articulated but merely implied, seems to go as follows:

1.) Ololiuhqui is a white-flowered vine with round seeds that have inebriating properties, and was used by indigenous inhabitants of Mesoamerica both before and after the Conquest.
2.) T. corymbosa is a white-flowered vine with round seeds that have inebriating properties, and its use is reasonably widespread among indigenous practitioners of curanderismo in Mesoamerica.
3.) Therefor ololiuhqui is T. corymbosa.

While that reasoning is not unassailable, it is fairly compelling. The only really credible alternative is that there is some other white-flowered vine with round, inebriating seeds, whose use has fallen out of favor or been lost in the centuries since the Conquest. While I am certainly open to having my mind changed by additional evidence, I have to say that it appears likely that the T. corymbosa identification is correct based on the sources presented by Schultes and those presented in the “History of morning glory seeds” thread.

In case anyone is interested in reviewing the Inquisition records for additional evidence, I am attaching the relevant pages, endnotes, and bibliography entries from Beltrán’s Medicina y Magia.

 

[jamie]

the fact that it is a vine pretty much rules out datura and other tropane plants.

 

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

the fact that it is a vine pretty much rules out datura and other tropane plants.

I was thinking Belladonna or Nightshade, because of the one picture that illustrated a cluster of red berries, yet no flowers.
It seemed very similar to nightshade berries.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Several solanum plants are vine like.
Their seeds are however all flat so far as i know.

 

[Herbaldreams]

Solandra grandiflora is a solanceus vine native to Mexico with white flower that is used as a hallucinogen. The seeds aren't round, but the seed pods are.

 

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

Solandra grandiflora is a solanceus vine native to Mexico with white flower that is used as a hallucinogen. The seeds aren't round, but the seed pods are.

"1547-1569 - Bernardino de Sahagún - A Franciscan missionary. While converting the native population was his objective, Sahagún also had a genuine interest in recording as much as he could of the Nahuatl language and Aztec culture. Between 1547 and 1569 he collected the information that comprises what we now know as the Florentine Codex, a record of the Aztec religion and culture based on interviews with native informants. While the Nahuatl text of the Codex was complete by 1569, Sahagún continued translating text and incorporating the illustrations for several year; it was not until approximately 1585 that the Codex was completed in the format available today. In addition to briefly noting the properties of ololiuqui, he also included an illustration of the fruiting plant (see below)."
From Entropymancer's thread

History of morning glory seeds (and other psychoactive bindweeds) - LSD, LSA, LSH - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

It bears a resembelance to Solanum Seaforthianum, in regards to the leaves, vine, and berries.
However, it is also described as having white flowers...
I doubt the ALL tribes used the SAME EXACT PLANT...
This is why is it very hard to determine an exact plant as being Ololiuqui...
I believe that the tribes used different variations of Tropane-alkaloid plants...
Here is pic of Solanum Seaforthianum berries

 

[lsDxMdmaddicThc]

However, it is also described as having white flowers...
I doubt the ALL tribes used the SAME EXACT PLANT...
This is why is it very hard to determine an exact plant as being Ololiuqui...
I believe that the tribes used different variations of Tropane-alkaloid plants...

It is also worthy of noting the improbability that all of the "documenters" visited the same tribe.
The information is VERY questionable and unreliable, but it is all we have to work with.
The name "Ololiuqui" probably had different meanings to different tribes in different areas, so I believe it IMPOSSIBLE to identify ONE PLANT as being Ololiuqui...
Any more input?
Don't let this thread die!