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Parallels of DMT experience in fire kasina practice and nimitta phenomenon

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Tomtegubbe

Tomtegubbe

Esteemed member
Lately I've been busy reading Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha by Daniel Ingram. This book is available free online at MCTB.org and you can also get an idea of his thoughts through his several talks on YouTube. One I found particularly interesting was done with with Guru Viking and the subject is about various aspects of magic.

Anyway, Mr. Ingram is a proponent of a fire kasina practice. In nutshell, you stare in to a candle flame and meditate on the after image to access altered states of mind. In the book he also goes into length to discuss the nimitta phenomenon not limited to the fire kasina practice, but familiar to all deeper meditative stages. That is the sort of light you begin to see behind your eyelids, even when in complete darkness when you are about to enter the deeper meditative states.

The way writes about these phenomena is very reminiscent of the onset of a DMT experience. Unfortunately I have not yet done much work to cultivate these techniques, but I believe there is lot of potential in the instructions of Mr. Ingram to cultivate meditative states under the influence of DMT.

Here is an excerpt from the section 29. "Kasinas". Emphasis is mine.

Objects that arise in this phase of practice tend to have repetitious elements to them. They also tend to have some depth and complexity. They can also be disturbing, with reasons for this explained later, but the short answer is that the insight practice equivalent of this territory involves some stages that can be frightening. In this territory, I have seen rows of narrow lines, spirals, vortices, doors, tunnels, canyons, fields of skulls, fingers and mushrooms, insects, snakes, and other strange creatures, as well as campfires, complex patterns that resembled fractals or Spirograph patterns crossed with Aztec writing, vast abstract landscapes, and many other strange images. These may spread out across the whole visual field. ...

As you get good at this, when the hyper-real territory shows up, it will be as you asked it to be and often much more, as if a master CGI specialist suddenly custom-crafted the images with a level of detail and perfection far beyond what you may have ever imagined your mind could generate and then fully immersed you in that world. At this point, the elaborate visualizations you find in some of the traditions of the Vajrayana suddenly seem and then become vastly more attainable. Ask and ye shall receive. Seek and ye shall find. Just be careful what you seek, as you may notice that images and other effects in that realm of the hyper-real can also cause proportionally strong reactions in us.
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The whole book is very valuable but from the point of view of having a parallel to the DMT experiences, this above quoted chapter is worth going through.
 
Thanks for that! We have endogenous beta carbolines and DMT and bufotenine after all... İt is highly likely that they are involved in such phenomena.

Lately I've been pondering if endogenous bufotenine is involved in dream experiences as dreaming feels more similar to Bufotenine than DMT for me.
 
Here is another take on the nimitta phenomenon and jhana states, from Mind Illuminated by Culadasa

The Luminous Jhānas

These are deeper than the whole-body or pleasure jhānas, and are called “luminous” because the object of meditation used for entering the first jhāna is the illumination phenomenon. This inner light is often called a nimitta,10 and the sensations of the breath are abandoned in favor of this luminous nimitta. Because it is mind-generated, rather than being a true sensory object, it allows all sensory content to be completely excluded from consciousness.

The nimitta may begin as a soft, fuzzy, or misty illumination; as a glowing disk or sphere; or as starlike, flickering pinpoints of light. If the nimitta is dim at first, it will gradually brighten, the pinpoints will expand, or multiple sparkles will coalesce. Colored lights tend to pale toward white, and the nimitta becomes more radiant, bright, and clear. ...

At some point, the breath and the nimitta will both be receiving the same amount of attention, and the two will seem to merge. When this happens, start working with the nimitta. First, intentionally let it recede into the background, appearing small and distant. Then, bring it in close so that it completely fills your visual field. Next, try shifting the bright center of the nimitta up or down, or from side to side. When the nimitta is stable enough that you can control it like this, you’re ready to completely abandon the physical sensations of the breath and attend exclusively to the nimitta. ...

Once the nimitta is stable enough to become the object of exclusive attention, you’re ready to enter the first luminous jhāna. Absorbing into this nimitta is not something you do. It’s a surrendering that draws the mind into the experience of the moment. Open up to it totally, becoming a completely passive observer. The mind is relaxed but alert, and attention and awareness are sharp and clear. Entering this kind of deep jhāna has been compared to submerging yourself in a warm bath. The bliss of physical pliancy floods the body with pleasure, pervading and saturating it everywhere. Meditative joy intensifies as well, and feelings of happiness grow as the bliss of mental pliancy increases. Energy intensifies as the mind fills with joy and happiness. You still feel energy sensations in your body, but they are no longer disturbing or unpleasant.
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I haven't been able to reach the jhanic states through meditation only, though I've seen the nimitta rise. However, I have had a few psychedelic experiences where I've entered a state of bliss with calm consciousness.

I haven't had a DMT breakthrough experience for approximately a year, but I keep going back to one experience where I remember quite clearly the onset. I first saw like an old CRT television screen with noise, the image was quite dim, but then I surrendered to this image and it took over, opened up like a portal and I went to the other side.

The breakthrough experiences haven't of course been very stable concentrated states of mind, since there is usually very much going on. However, I've gotten into the states that resemble the jhana states with ayahuasca (once combined with LSD) and psilocybin at least once or twice and the first time the experience was very stable. There had been intensive preparation and quite optimal conditions with a cottage in the middle of snowy landscape and two very trusted friends.

I'm looking forward to developing these states both through meditation only and meditation supplemented with psychedelics.

So far, when going on psychedelic journeys, there has been so much "content" related to the issues that need working on in my personal life that the situations have been few where I have just been able to calm my mind and focus on being here and now. I hope to be able to work both on the level of content and level of beyond content. It's just very easy to get caught up in thoughts and forget about the possibility of letting go.

I believe that the maps provided by Culadasa and Daniel Ingram can help navigate the psychedelic spaces too and cultivate the inner worlds that they open.
 
Thank you very much for this post. I listened to a podcast with Daniel Ingram semi-recently and found he had some interesting things to say.

I have been looking to beef up my meditation and spiritual practices and have thought to gain a better understanding of Buddhism. I took a look at the book of his that you shared and it looks like exactly the kind of in-depth resource I have been hoping to stumble across.
 
Thank you for bringing up this topic!

Now that some time has passed, I really don't know what to think about it. I felt the pull in that direction in the summer but I think exercising your discretion is advised if these practices are pursued.
 
Reaching Jhana, where the appearance of Nimita usually happens in the second, is definitly doable with constant daily practice and a structured roadmap, such as "The Mind Illuminated" is providing.

But before this can happen, one needs to go through several stages beforehand, because otherwise the mind is too disturbed to reach access-concentration which is the foundation of any flow state.

TMI provides all the necessary roadwork that has to be done beforehand. For me it's the best meditation book available right now.
 
Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing. I dabbled with kasina/Trataka candle gazing practice when engaging with dreamwork and practicing OBE induction, and it did seem to amplify things - particularly if practiced in the early morning hours. Recently the practice of Surat Shabda Yoga, or inner light and sound meditation has come to my attention. I'm still researching it, but it sounds like awareness of the inner light or nimitta is the focal point of meditation, and the point is also made that being mind-generated, it can allow for a deeper inner absorption than using a sensory object such as the breath as an anchor for one's awareness.
 
Sitting by the fire has always helped me enter trance states. What many seem to miss about the Buddhas teachings is that he realized (all is one) and all the external projections, dmt, entities whatever is all a projection of our consciousness. As paradoxically as it sounds, the entire universe is within you, your inner-verse is creating it and the visuals and things you see and experience are you tapping into your infinitude of the universal mind.

You will find as your mind becomes more and more still via meditation and other practices, you will hallucinate less and see less things and tend to "feel" more and "understand" more.

My idea is that hallucinations are a result of a busy mind, i find when i am deeper into trips I have no thoughts/no hallucinations, the realities merge into one or when I am living in the forest and meditating a lot, i take mushrooms, I don't trip at all, because I have become so relaxed, and calm in mind/body/spirit, if feels no different to my natural state.

Whereas if i go into the city and get lost in all the mess then I take a psyche, I notice more hallucinating and altered states of perceptions because my mind and body has become much more "stimulated" and "active" thus the beautiful mess of hallucinations.
 
Actually, I was on a 10 day silent retreat a month ago, and when I came back and had an ayahuasca trip, it was very lucid, very little hallucinations. I was able to inspect my inner world with a clear mind.

The question whether the entities are "inside" or "outside" us is a very difficult one. From a Buddhist point of view we create our subjective reality by the way we look at things. With clear mind we have lots of control over the experience, change of perspective changes the experience.

In meditation literature it is often pointed that one should not spend too much time exploring the hallucinations that might arise but work to keep the mind one-pointed. I believe this is the way hyperspace should be treated as well. The stronger my energy and concentration the more respect I get. It is very possible to be open and focused at the same time.
 
That's a beautiful insight Tomtegubbe. I never thought about entities as Maya but perhaps that is the right view of them, perhaps. However sometimes they give such profound insights that to miss them might miss the point.

In the science of yoga flame gazing is called Tatrak gazing and is also a very ancient tradition. The point where the flame becomes air is what one concentrates on until your eyes water and then you follow the after image with eyes closed that's burned into your mind. I used to do practice with it as a teenager and then did it now and again but not with the consistency which is needed I'm guessing to get altered states. That's impressive and very exciting that you have achieved states of bliss and almost psychedelic experiences with this technique. It is a powerful practice indeed. Thank you for reintroducing it to me and sharing about your journey with it.
 
Tomtegubbe said:
Actually, I was on a 10 day silent retreat a month ago, and when I came back and had an ayahuasca trip, it was very lucid, very little hallucinations. I was able to inspect my inner world with a clear mind.

The question whether the entities are "inside" or "outside" us is a very difficult one. From a Buddhist point of view we create our subjective reality by the way we look at things. With clear mind we have lots of control over the experience, change of perspective changes the experience.

In meditation literature it is often pointed that one should not spend too much time exploring the hallucinations that might arise but work to keep the mind one-pointed. I believe this is the way hyperspace should be treated as well. The stronger my energy and concentration the more respect I get. It is very possible to be open and focused at the same time.
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I am interested in your description here. So you did a 10 day meditation retreat then your subsequent Aya experience was subjectively quite different. Do you think it was more due to the level of concentration you had been developing enabled you to direct the experience more and guide it in a sense, and that you were inclining less toward visuals?
 
Hi. I am actually a huge fan of this book. It was  the thing that motivated me to do meditation retreats and take on a serious mediation practice. I've listened to all of Daniel's podcasts. I'm really glad someone mentioned fire kasina here.

In order to get full on visions it requires "high dose" as Daniel says. I.e. 80 to 100 hours of kasina practice over a retreat, and you become like a "tripping person" as he says.

There are four "screens". The third screen is seeing photo realistic environments. And the fourth screen, it feels and looks like you are there. https://firekasina.org/glossary/

I am super curious about BOTH DMT and the 4th screen. It sounds like there is a phenomenalogical difference here. From what DMT users say, it can be an experience of more than 3 dimensions. But it seems like the fire kasina, so-called "4th screen" doesn't give you that effect.


Like fire kasina is a lower dimensional phenomenon that full on DMT.

I'm curious if someone has experience with both. It's exciting because this is the stuff the mediation and psychedelic worlds are going to get to work out, this century. Very fun.
 
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