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Persistent issue with ACRB extraction — extremely acrid clear goo.

Stochastic

Stochastic

Esteemed member
I've attempted extractions on several occasions in Hawaii with wild-harvested Acacia confusa rootbark.

I've tried STB vs. A/B, boiling vs. soaking, NaOH vs. Na2CO3, different forms of naphtha, and rootbark from different trees.
I've tried backsalting into vinegar, adding ascorbic acid, and re-extracting with Na2CO3 into fresh naphtha.

Every single time, I've ended up with a clear, viscous goo, that will not dry out, and that is extremely acrid. When I tried vaporizing it once, it burned my throat for days and I learned my lesson.

Compare this with my effortless success with all methods of MHRB extraction, for over 15 years.

Somehow, despite searching, I've not found a single mention of this anywhere. To be clear, the issue is not just the consistency or high NMT content; this is a completely unusable product.

I don't know what else I could possibly try, and I don't know what I'm expecting by posting this, but it's been an ordeal and I felt to share.
 
You might have to look at every single material you've been using these extractions and consider whether/how it may have effected this outcome.

You may also have to try some alternative methods of cleaning up the product, or analysis either with chromatography - doable at home - or by sending samples to a lab.

Maybe somebody with more ACRB experience than me can chime in, though.
 
Working with this tree is problematic. Freeze precipitates? What's that‽ Floral-smelling orange resins and viscous oils are pretty standard extraction results. While smokable, the bark extracts have tended to be weak; this may be due to harvesting bark from wind-damaged sections that are not more directly tied in with the tree's circulatory system. A phyllode extraction has yielded the best results so far: a black floral resin that's quite powerful...

Not wishing to do damage or harm another living thing, a section of bark from a freshly downed branch about 2 inches in diameter was processed via A/B extraction. Upon adding naphtha, it remained completely clear! Ditto for toluene. Evaporation yielded a clear resin that turned amber upon scraping up. Smoking all 70mg of this resin resulted in light-headedness with tingling in the extremities and mild closed-eye visuals – a +1–1.5 on the Shulgin scale.

My advice is to try a phyllode extraction using at least 150g of bone-dry crushed up or powdered leaf.
 
Transform said:
You might have to look at every single material you've been using these extractions and consider whether/how it may have effected this outcome.

You may also have to try some alternative methods of cleaning up the product, or analysis either with chromatography - doable at home - or by sending samples to a lab.

Maybe somebody with more ACRB experience than me can chime in, though.
Click to expand...

Over the years, in my attempts I've varied every aspect of the extraction. I guess the only commonality is that I harvested the rootbark/trunkbark in the summer. This is a very small scale extraction and may not be worth investing in chromatography unless there's a clear rationale.

TheGreenPhantom said:
Working with this tree is problematic. Freeze precipitates? What's that‽ Floral-smelling orange resins and viscous oils are pretty standard extraction results. While smokable, the bark extracts have tended to be weak; this may be due to harvesting bark from wind-damaged sections that are not more directly tied in with the tree's circulatory system. A phyllode extraction has yielded the best results so far: a black floral resin that's quite powerful...

Not wishing to do damage or harm another living thing, a section of bark from a freshly downed branch about 2 inches in diameter was processed via A/B extraction. Upon adding naphtha, it remained completely clear! Ditto for toluene. Evaporation yielded a clear resin that turned amber upon scraping up. Smoking all 70mg of this resin resulted in light-headedness with tingling in the extremities and mild closed-eye visuals – a +1–1.5 on the Shulgin scale.

My advice is to try a phyllode extraction using at least 150g of bone-dry crushed up or powdered leaf.
Click to expand...

I got mainly pure white crystals, no color and only a faint "dmt smell".

I did harvest the bark from an aboveground section of root adjacent to a dead section; it didn't have a strong DMT smell like the bark typically does (though strong-smelling bark has been unsuccessful for me in the past as well).

Very interesting about the phyllodes. I could not find any reports of their activity despite searching thoroughly. Any estimates on yield? Did you use fallen phyllodes?
 
You can read about my phyllode extraction here:

Post in thread 'The Acacia Confusa thread' The Acacia Confusa thread

Because I tried different methods to obtain the good stuff from the base tea, I don't have a good yield estimate. Also, to date, I've only done one phyllode extraction. I should have a better idea next time around.

I harvested the phyllodes from a short, scraggly and gnarled tree.
 
TheGreenPhantom said:
You can read about my phyllode extraction here:

Post in thread 'The Acacia Confusa thread' The Acacia Confusa thread

Because I tried different methods to obtain the good stuff from the base tea, I don't have a good yield estimate. Also, to date, I've only done one phyllode extraction. I should have a better idea next time around.

I harvested the phyllodes from a short, scraggly and gnarled tree.
Click to expand...

There's a tree down the street, I'll try tomorrow.
 
I tasted the acidic water from the recrystallization (I used ascorbic acid to acidify) and it had the same acrid taste. I pipetted from the bottom to make sure I didn't get any residual naphtha floating on top.
 
So, you have an acrid-tasting substance that behaves, to all intents and purposes, exactly like an alkaloid.

Besides chalking it down to a "dud" specimen and moving on, I'd say there are two other approaches. One would be to carry on throwing chemistry at the extract, the other would be getting to know the tree - you could say, a more spiritual and/or shamanic approach.

Chemistry-wise, it could be that you've stumbled on a specimen that tends to output its indole alkaloids in a more complex form. These are detailed in at least one other thread around here somewhere, and at a minimum, one of them - assuming it's even present in your extract - looks likely to have an acrid taste, at least when making an educated guess based on chemical structure.

In the thread I'm thinking of, I detailed in a reaction diagram how strong base treatment might serve to liberate at least NMT from such a molecule. I'd consider this a long shot at best, although it would still be interesting to know what happens to the extract if you hit it hard with NaOH one more time.

Going back, the former approach, of which you may be aware or even practice already, would consist of spending months to years pretty much literally getting to know the tree, finding out what it has to say, learning its particular voice, meditating in its presence and bringing something to the tree should it be open to it. This goes in stark contrast to viewing these beings simply as impersonal drug factories for the taking, and has the potential to open up a world of relationship and connection. Forgive me if I'm preaching to the choir on that one!

Anyhow, there's no reason that these two approaches shouldn't be complementary to each other and I hope you have at least some food for thought - and feeling! - that helps guide you in your journey :)
 
Transform said:
So, you have an acrid-tasting substance that behaves, to all intents and purposes, exactly like an alkaloid.

Besides chalking it down to a "dud" specimen and moving on, I'd say there are two other approaches. One would be to carry on throwing chemistry at the extract, the other would be getting to know the tree - you could say, a more spiritual and/or shamanic approach.

Chemistry-wise, it could be that you've stumbled on a specimen that tends to output its indole alkaloids in a more complex form. These are detailed in at least one other thread around here somewhere, and at a minimum, one of them - assuming it's even present in your extract - looks likely to have an acrid taste, at least when making an educated guess based on chemical structure.

In the thread I'm thinking of, I detailed in a reaction diagram how strong base treatment might serve to liberate at least NMT from such a molecule. I'd consider this a long shot at best, although it would still be interesting to know what happens to the extract if you hit it hard with NaOH one more time.

Going back, the former approach, of which you may be aware or even practice already, would consist of spending months to years pretty much literally getting to know the tree, finding out what it has to say, learning its particular voice, meditating in its presence and bringing something to the tree should it be open to it. This goes in stark contrast to viewing these beings simply as impersonal drug factories for the taking, and has the potential to open up a world of relationship and connection. Forgive me if I'm preaching to the choir on that one!

Anyhow, there's no reason that these two approaches shouldn't be complementary to each other and I hope you have at least some food for thought - and feeling! - that helps guide you in your journey :)
Click to expand...

Thank you for this reminder. Yes, the tree I harvested from really was not in the best state (in several ways), and I didn't connect with it as deeply as I would have liked due to circumstances.

As for the chemistry - I've experienced an acrid taste from polymerized DMT (left behind in a vaporizer), but that was black (not white) and not nearly as intense as this. The suspicion that polymerization might have been involved (despite no color) led me to try the ascorbic acid mini A/B. & I'm not currently equipped to try and characterize the acrid principle.

Regardless, I visited another 2 trees down the road that I had visited (not harvested) a few times over the years. New friends bought the property and invited me to harvest phyllodes. I also found out that they intend to cut one very large branch that scrapes upon the main trunk; I offered to help, which will enable me to harvest with a similar depth of presence and connection as I bring to harvesting ayahuasca vine.
 
I attempted an A. confusa extraction years ago which yielded a similar substance.

It smells deeply of dmt but neutralized alkaloid in vinegar still burns the mouth.

Acts like an alkaloid, dissolves in acidic water and not basic.

I was wondering if it doesn't have histamine or something like that in it.

I'm trying to move away from plants I can't grow and my A. confusa houseplant's phyllodes never yielded any spice!
 
I tried again with the trunk bark of the pruned tree. Did a simple A/B and freeze-precipitated from heptane without backsalting yet so I could test the results.

This time yielded more of a goo, which makes sense for trunk vs. root bark, but still the bitter/acrid quality - although somewhat attenuated.

If I recall from MHRB extracts (it's been a while), the result was relatively bland. I can't imagine this is par for the course...
 
The original acid brew (vinegar, lemon juice, ascorbic acid), is just normal tannin bitter without the acridity.
The goo re-dissolved in lemon juice is acrid.

I took some more of the original brew and added sodium carbonate until it turned black around pH 11-12. The alkaline brew was slightly bitter and characteristic of alkaline solutions, but not acrid.
I added lemon juice and the re-acidified brew was neither bitter nor acrid.

I did a pull with fresh heptane on the (non-bitter) lye-free solution and will know tomorrow if it becomes bitter or not.

Right now the two most obvious logical sources of contamination are the lye (but it's 100% NaOH drain cleaner, ROOTO brand, which has been recommended here) or the lining of the mason jar lids I had been using (this time I used a glass kombucha bottle with PE or PP liner in the lid instead of a jar).
 
Well, I tried with fresh bark heated in vinegar+lemon juice+ascorbic acid, basified with sodium carbonate to pH 11-12, pulled with heptane... it got cloudy in the freezer... and then turned clear without dropping anything.

The trees aren't huge (~15 feet tall) but aren't so young that I would expect no alkaloids. Using lye to basify did drop the acrid stuff.

I'm at a loss at this point.
 
I really do have to wonder if there's some sort of genetic variability at play, and some Acacia confusas are actually making other alkaloids.


Stochastic, are you certain the plants you're collecting are confusa as opposed to another Acacia species?

Do you think it could be a related species giving these odd results?
 
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