Politics of Change

[JDSalinger]

Thought I would start a new thread on politics, since the other one has turned into a real slug fest. I am after peoples thoughts on what we can do to transmute positive change into the world. This is not to be a thread about political parties and all the dogma associated with it, or set political systems, once that happens we objectify it and our own bias gets immediately imprinted upon it. All of us tend to loose sight of what 'is' from time to time because we are stuck picking sides, in what ever that may be.

Some key points for discussion are:
-Community
-Environment
-Sustainability
-Equality

I have my own thoughts on the matter but would like to hear you all first.

Love

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I've been saying it objectively and directly forever, regardless of your political party or social class, or race, the answer is love, peace, compassion and selflessness.

Nobody wants to make a sacrifice, we have all backed into our positions, and are willing to fight for them, there is injustice and atrocity on all sides of the currant global conflict, but this goes beyond all that, nothing can be changed except ourselves, and if we promote selflessness, compassion, peace and love in our own social circles, maybe it will spread to our communities, then to our cities, then to our states, then nationally, then globally...or it may not go beyond the people you interact with during your day, regardless, if all I can change is myself, I will be committed to peace, and any opportunity I get ill, plea for peace.

-eg

 

[Psybin]

I've been saying it objectively and directly forever, regardless of your political party or social class, or race, the answer is love, peace, compassion and selflessness.

Nobody wants to make a sacrifice, we have all backed into our positions, and are willing to fight for them, there is injustice and atrocity on all sides of the currant global conflict, but this goes beyond all that, nothing can be changed except ourselves, and if we promote selflessness, compassion, peace and love in our own social circles, maybe it will spread to our communities, then to our cities, then to our states, then nationally, then globally...or it may not go beyond the people you interact with during your day, regardless, if all I can change is myself, I will be committed to peace, and any opportunity I get ill, plea for peace.

-eg

Sadly you are correct. It seems that being oppressed pushes people toward hate and away from love, unless a movement based on love can take root.

 

[Praxis.]

What does love, peace, compassion, and selflessness look like to you then?

Psybin, what are examples of movements that you believe are/were motivated by hate?

I'm not sure how this thread would be any different from the other one if I'm being honest. It's not as though people's political opinions are going to change because a different person asked the same question with an alternative choice of words. I think part of the reason the other thread has become so convoluted is because, surprise, we have many different opinions here and not all of them jive.

How people choose to react to and engage with dissenting opinions is on them; I'm not sure why it comes as a shock that people act immaturely on the internet.

 

[JDSalinger]

Let me clarify a little Praxis, I see the way the world is governed as deeply flawed, it is evident that what we are doing isn't working. I wish to move past expecting our leaders to implement the changes that I believe we here (for the most part) on the nexus would like to see, I'm talking grass roots.

Here is what I have been thinking.

I have been thinking of the breakdown of communities, since industrialisation where families moved to cities and a disconnection to your neighbour and the environment occurred. So I have been thinking how to reestablish this while still being a part of society.
My partner and I have been talking about buying a property with a couple we know very well, something around 20 acres and subdividing it, and each building a house. We wish to have a cow for milk, chickens, bees, veggies and fruit trees. Each house will contribute different things so the work load is easier. The houses will have solar and rainwater, trying to be as off the grid as possible. We would each have our privacy but would share/barter goods, relying less on supermarkets and ideally produce a little extra to sell at farmers markets
I am hoping that others would like the way that we are living and follow suit. I would like children in the near future and the couple we are planing this with have two beautiful kids and they would all grow up learning skills that are somewhat lost today and a with sense of family that extends beyond blood. If anything we would have raised our children (fingers crossed) to live responsibly and pass down that knowledge to their kids.

 

[Praxis.]

Let me clarify a little Praxis, I see the way the world is governed as deeply flawed, it is evident that what we are doing isn't working. I wish to move past expecting our leaders to implement the changes that I believe we here (for the most part) on the nexus would like to see, I'm talking grass roots.

For sure, but I don't understand why we need an entirely different thread for this discussion. Your sentiment is a political perspective, and well within the scope of the conversations taking place in the original thread.

I also believe that fundamental change has to occur at the grassroots level. Efforts need to be community-based and led, and they need to center the needs of those most impacted by whatever issues we are organizing around. We have to work from the ground-up, absolutely. But this is still a political strategy.

I think a lot of people understandably tune out when they hear the words "politics", and associate any kind of political process with the two-party BS fed to us by mainstream media. So when people say, "I don't like politics" or "I avoid politics" etc...I understand the sentiment. But the reality is that we make political choices every single day whether we choose to acknowledge it or not. "Politics" are not exclusive to Republicans, Democrats, presidential campaigns, picket lines, voting, etc... Recognizing the ways that industrial agriculture brings harm to your community and choosing to collectively grow your own food instead is inherently political. Noticing that your neighbor cannot afford rent because of unfair housing policies, and deciding to establish some kind of community-based safety net, is a political act. Doing nothing when your neighbors are being murdered in their own homes because of the color of their skin is a political choice. You don't have to buy into the "political process" to be political, and choosing to engage with the "political process" when it is in your best interest to do so doesn't mean you're endorsing the system either.

In so many words, my point is just that we have these kinds of conversations on the Nexus periodically and they usually end the same way. And inevitably someone will try to start a new thread that attempts to tackle these issues while leaving "politics" out. And then we wonder why these conversations never go anywhere.

I don't mean to shut down your idea at all. I think you should absolutely go for it if it excites you, and I'd love to see your progress! It can get cluttered around here pretty quickly is all, especially as we take on new members more frequently. Being careful not to repeat content in new threads over and over is a simple way to help keep things organized and easy to navigate. Not that it's really that big of a deal, but this conversation pops up quite a bit around these parts.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I think I understand the original posters intentions.

Why biccer and fight over incidents which have been spun and politicized by either side to make a point...

Why fight over how wrong our politicians are and how corrupt our system is, we are all aware of this...

Why fight over partison issues?

(Look at Jamaica when the PNP (left) and the JLP (right) had entire neighborhoods, common people, fighting each other for the politicians...

When the youth fighting against the youth, for the politicians then I ...really feel sick-Bob Marley

Election? No matter who get elected it's just going to be the same problem. -Bob marley

-------

Empty factories to the east and all our waste
The shape of things that came shows on the broken workers face
To the west you'll find our silicon promised lands where
Machines replace our minds for systematic profit plans
The course of human progress staggers like a drunk
Its steps are quick and heavy and it's mind is slow and blunt
I look for optimism but I just don't know
Its seeds are planted in a poison place where nothing grows


It's 2016, stand up and take a look around
Weathers bitter tension it seems is sinking down
Drunk with power and fighting one another
Every hour shows the winter getting harder
There's a freeze up coming...

One nation stands the tallest radiating blinding light
Plastic and fluorescent energy robbing us of sight
Set in our way content with our decay
We wave the flag of freedom as we conquer and invade
Ever ask yourself where's my place in this hell
But no ones there to tell you cuz they don't know that themselves
The well rehearsed lines from our elated politicians
No longer offer solace we can see the self destruction

-Jesse Michaels; operation ivy

--------

-eg

 

[dreamer042]

That other thread is a joke and I for one chose to treat it as such. Big politics is a soap opera, the symbolic act of voting means little, if anything. It's all corrupted and owned and overall just too incredibly depressing to do anything but laugh at the absurdity of it all.

This doesn't mean all politics is that way. One actually can make significant differences in local level political arenas. When you go to town hall meeting, your vote can actually make a difference. Local non-profits need idealistic young people to donate their time and money to continue the important work they do that actually does make a positive impact in the community. As alluded to above, every time you spend a dollar you are voting. Are you voting for megacorp inc. continuing ecological genocide, or are you voting for farmer Bill's children getting piano lessons?

Legal weed may have come down to a vote, but it only got on the ballot in the first place as a result of many decades of grassroots organizing. Harm reduction isn't something that comes out of campaigning for Bernie, it's taking it upon yourself to start a needle exchange in your city. Change isn't ticking a ballot box, change is starting a food not bombs to give away free food at a local park. Direct action is the keyword here. Arguing about the bigot or the puppet or the hippie is just distracting you from getting out and planting that garden or volunteering to help at risk youth with their homework after school.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I'm reading the OP. When you're not arguing in favor of your chosen figurehead online, how do you contribute to your community? If your not already involved, what should/could you be doing? There is a lot of anarchist philosophy talk but not a lot of anarchist action talk. What can I be doing to better my world right now despite which talking head I'll see pasted to my screen for the next four years?

Whatcha got nexus?

 

[anne halonium]

im not gonna say much on this thread, cuz the other thread is more fun fer sure.

the differences in political outlook on the other thread is apparent,
but,
if you read the other thread from a different angle,
i see where there is actually great unity.

everyone seems to agree on the following things,
* personal change pry exceeds whatever politicos do.
* everyone is for drug freedom.
* everyone takes a dim view of endless war
* everyone takes a dim view of the american police states and gulags.
* everyone is fed up with govt status quo.
* everyone despises bankers.

that gives us a strong common base to work with
in spite of differences.............

 

[Psybin]

What does love, peace, compassion, and selflessness look like to you then?

Psybin, what are examples of movements that you believe are/were motivated by hate?

I'm not sure how this thread would be any different from the other one if I'm being honest. It's not as though people's political opinions are going to change because a different person asked the same question with an alternative choice of words. I think part of the reason the other thread has become so convoluted is because, surprise, we have many different opinions here and not all of them jive.

How people choose to react to and engage with dissenting opinions is on them; I'm not sure why it comes as a shock that people act immaturely on the internet.

Some examples would include the Nazi party, the Italian fascist party, as well as many other despotic regimes whose ideologies were structured around singling out a certain group of people because they were different and committing violence and aggressive acts towards them. I would consider the nationalist movement in the US a prime example, as its unifying principal is the exclusion of non-whites and non-Europeans and is predicated on racism against Hispanics and Muslims as well as violence and the killing of innocents (such as Trump's declaration that he would order the military to commit war crimes including the murder of innocent families to punish terrorists). Any regime or movement that holds racial and religious discrimination as central tenets are based on hate.

On the flip side, I would consider the Civil Rights Movement of the 60's a good example of a movement predicated on love and acceptance, at its core. I also consider the abolition movement and the suffrage movement to also be love based paradigm shifts.

That is my perspective on the question you asked.

 

[hug46]

What does love, peace, compassion, and selflessness look like to you then?

Psybin, what are examples of movements that you believe are/were motivated by hate?

Some examples would include the Nazi party, the Italian fascist party, as well as many other despotic regimes whose ideologies were structured around singling out a certain group of people because they were different and committing violence and aggressive acts towards them.

I am not sure that i fully agree that the nazi were motivated purely by hate. Nazis are into racial hierachy and believe in the Aryan master race. "undesirables" were considered to be lower than human by the Nazis and treated like vermin. I think that the way in which the extermination was carried out was far more cold and subsequently far more disturbing than just being hate based. They actually thought that they were making the human race better. A lot of people commit heinous atrocities on others because they believe that they are doing the right thing and concepts like love, compassion or hate are less likely to come into play if victims are thought of as subhuman.

 

[JDSalinger]

Thank you Dreamer and EG, :d I want to see what people are actually doing or planing to do to promote change.

This is not to be a thread about political parties and all the dogma associated with it, or set political systems/quote]

Psybin, there is another thread where you can push your agenda, I don't want to debate the merits of fascism or any other political system or talk about politicians on this thread. If you give a portion of your pay check to charity, plan on adopting or anything of the such please share. That is where I believe real change will come from.

EDIT: Hug46, may I include you in the above statement, and all others that wish to debate those issues to do that in another thread, please.

 

[Psybin]

What does love, peace, compassion, and selflessness look like to you then?

Psybin, what are examples of movements that you believe are/were motivated by hate?

Some examples would include the Nazi party, the Italian fascist party, as well as many other despotic regimes whose ideologies were structured around singling out a certain group of people because they were different and committing violence and aggressive acts towards them.

I am not sure that i fully agree that the nazi were motivated purely by hate. Nazis are into racial hierachy and believe in the Aryan master race. "undesirables" were considered to be lower than human by the Nazis and treated like vermin. I think that the way in which the extermination was carried out was far more cold and subsequently far more disturbing than just being hate based. They actually thought that they were making the human race better. A lot of people commit heinous atrocities on others because they believe that they are doing the right thing and concepts like love, compassion or hate are less likely to come into play if victims are thought of as subhuman.

Yes, but how is racial hierarchy and subjugation (and genocide) not rooted in hate? I'm not saying that the Nazis were purely or only driven by hate, but that it was a large motivation whether they were consciously aware or not. That's my opinion though, so you are free to disagree of course. You present valid points that I agree with, but my main point is/was parallel to what you've laid out in your post insofar as they are not incompatible ideas.

EDIT: My apologies JDSalinger, I was simply responding to Praxis' and hug's questions. What am I actually doing for change? I've been protesting at the capitol building with other members of the BLM movement in the area and have been working to set up a not for profit organization with a close friends to provide free recording studio time for local musicians and provide facilities for kids to learn and practice music and, hopefully in the future, to learn how to grow food sustainably. I've also spent a lot of time at the food shelter lately, but honestly it probably doesn't do much outside of a few blocks radius (which is an issue I hope to be able to address this summer while I'm not in classes all day). All of this is relatively small potatoes though. If I were in a more stable financial situation right now, I'd really like to be able to travel the country to help organize more large scale change that would affect positive change for more people than I can reach out to in my area. How that would be accomplished is still something I'm trying to figure out.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Thank you Dreamer and EG, :d I want to see what people are actually doing or planing to do to promote change.

This is not to be a thread about political parties and all the dogma associated with it, or set political systems/quote]

Psybin, there is another thread where you can push your agenda, I don't want to debate the merits of fascism or any other political system or talk about politicians on this thread. If you give a portion of your pay check to charity, plan on adopting or anything of the such please share. That is where I believe real change will come from.

EDIT: Hug46, may I include you in the above statement, and all others that wish to debate those issues to do that in another thread, please.

What am I doing to promote change?

If you charge off with some political agenda that is not informed by clarity, you are going to end up with business as usual. The road to hell is paved with good intentions but it is not paved with clarity.

-Terence McKenna

Think what you want about Mr.McKenna, but he is right.

Any political agenda I put my effort in must be motivated by inducing clarity in the thought stream of humanity.

Peace, love, compassion, selflessness...any obstacles to incorporating these concepts into the thought-stream and politics of modern humanity are obstacles involving an unclear view of the situation, an unclear view of what is right and wrong, and an unclear view of their fellow humans.

...things are getting worse, and not just in global politics and conflict, but in the minds of the common people.

...Hortatory preaching, well founded philosophical argument, logic and reason...have all failed to enlighten minds and save this world, and if these things are unable to change minds, what options are left?

Entheogens, meditation, philosophy, psychology?

What can be done to bring clarity in thought?

...I'm guessing it's a brick by brick effort, person by person you must change minds, change lives, by brining what ever enlightenment, gnosis and wisdom you can to the beings you interact with daily, be it by talking with them, sharing your wisdom and knowledge, to offering those an opportunity to explore entheogens, every person is unique and needs something specific to themselves.

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened -Buddha

It's about educating the beings around you and learning from them. It's about brining clarity, wisdom, and knowledge to all that you can.

----

I can't stand the political discussion that goes on...

One side sites an event, spins it to prove some political argument, so the next side pulls up another event, also spun to counter the argument...

Debate is productive, but when your using politicised and spun propaganda to make your political points your straying out of the realms of objectivity, how do you know this is what happened in reality? Do these events really have the political implications you claim?

...honestly, what difference does it make.

The root of the problem won't be gotten to by these methods, we have to understand what it is in ourselves that drives us to behave these ways.

Ok, I'll stop, it all seems pretty absurd to me, currant political atmosphere and discussion seems like, as mckenna would say "a kind of epistemological cartoon about reality."

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Thank you Dreamer and EG, :d I want to see what people are actually doing or planing to do to promote change.

This is not to be a thread about political parties and all the dogma associated with it, or set political systems/quote]

Psybin, there is another thread where you can push your agenda, I don't want to debate the merits of fascism or any other political system or talk about politicians on this thread. If you give a portion of your pay check to charity, plan on adopting or anything of the such please share. That is where I believe real change will come from.

EDIT: Hug46, may I include you in the above statement, and all others that wish to debate those issues to do that in another thread, please.

What am I doing to promote change?

If you charge off with some political agenda that is not informed by clarity, you are going to end up with business as usual. The road to hell is paved with good intentions but it is not paved with clarity.

-Terence McKenna

Think what you want about Mr.McKenna, but he is right.

Any political agenda I put my effort in must be motivated by inducing clarity in the thought stream of humanity.

Peace, love, compassion, selflessness...any obstacles to incorporating these concepts into the thought-stream and politics of modern humanity are obstacles involving an unclear view of the situation, an unclear view of what is right and wrong, and an unclear view of their fellow humans.

...things are getting worse, and not just in global politics and conflict, but in the minds of the common people.

...Hortatory preaching, well founded philosophical argument, logic and reason...have all failed to enlighten minds and save this world, and if these things are unable to change minds, what options are left?

Entheogens, meditation, philosophy, psychology?

What can be done to bring clarity in thought?

...I'm guessing it's a brick by brick effort, person by person you must change minds, change lives, by brining what ever enlightenment, gnosis and wisdom you can to the beings you interact with daily, be it by talking with them, sharing your wisdom and knowledge, to offering those an opportunity to explore entheogens, every person is unique and needs something specific to themselves.

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened -Buddha

It's about educating the beings around you and learning from them. It's about brining clarity, wisdom, and knowledge to all that you can.

----

I can't stand the political discussion that goes on...

One side sites an event, spins it to prove some political argument, so the next side pulls up another event, also spun to counter the argument...

Debate is productive, but when your using politicised and spun propaganda to make your political points your straying out of the realms of objectivity, how do you know this is what happened in reality? Do these events really have the political implications you claim?

...honestly, what difference does it make.

The root of the problem won't be gotten to by these methods, we have to understand what it is in ourselves that drives us to behave these ways.

Ok, I'll stop, it all seems pretty absurd to me, currant political atmosphere and discussion seems like, as mckenna would say "a kind of epistemological cartoon about reality."

-eg

 

[JDSalinger]

My apologies JDSalinger, I was simply responding to Praxis' and hug's questions. What am I actually doing for change? I've been protesting at the capitol building with other members of the BLM movement in the area and have been working to set up a not for profit organization with a close friends to provide free recording studio time for local musicians and provide facilities for kids to learn and practice music and, hopefully in the future, to learn how to grow food sustainably. I've also spent a lot of time at the food shelter lately, but honestly it probably doesn't do much outside of a few blocks radius (which is an issue I hope to be able to address this summer while I'm not in classes all day). All of this is relatively small potatoes though. If I were in a more stable financial situation right now, I'd really like to be able to travel the country to help organize more large scale change that would affect positive change for more people than I can reach out to in my area. How that would be accomplished is still something I'm trying to figure out.

All good friend. That sounds fantastic, I definitely would like to be more involved in my community. What you are doing sounds very selfless and I admire that very much!

 

[JDSalinger]

Hortatory preaching, well founded philosophical argument, logic and reason...have all failed to enlighten minds and save this world, and if these things are unable to change minds, what options are left?

Entheogens, meditation, philosophy, psychology?

What can be done to bring clarity in thought?

...I'm guessing it's a brick by brick effort, person by person you must change minds, change lives, by brining what ever enlightenment, gnosis and wisdom you can to the beings you interact with daily, be it by talking with them, sharing your wisdom and knowledge, to offering those an opportunity to explore entheogens, every person is unique and needs something specific to themselves.

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened -Buddha

It's about educating the beings around you and learning from them. It's about brining clarity, wisdom, and knowledge to all that you can.

I sometimes get discouraged at the enormity of the task ahead. I have enough trouble at work trying to get other chefs to not drink red bull all day and to eat fruit instead of deep fried food. They just don't want to change and they know what I am saying is right, and I think how do I show others to treat people kindly when they can't even look after themselves?
Jesus said 2000 years ago 'do to others as you would have them do to you' and look at all the Christians that still can't figure that one out... I sometimes wish that the whole world could take a good hit of LSD, then they could really see the madness for what it is, but alas it is a 'brick by brick effort' like you said

 

[slewb]

It's entirely possible to be a good person and work towards a better system while drinking red bull and eating deep fried food.