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Possible cheap alternative for PTFE lined caps?

The_Embalmer

🦑
Donator
[Disclaimer: this is the Info I have gathered based off my first 6 extractions and my attempt to try and give back some of the Info I've learned. It is more of a theory that is still subject to change and I am learning from. I do not have access to equipment to be able to confirm nor deny the presence of plastic contamination in my end product i can only share my experiences in hopes to learn.]



What is PTFE?

"Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) is a fluoropolymer and is commonly known by its trade name, Teflon®. Unique properties of PTFE include nonreactivity, hydrophobicity, a low coefficient of friction, and good insulating properties. It is most commonly used as a nonstick coating for cookware. PTFE is also used in the manufacture of semiconductors and medical devices; as coatings for bulk chemical containers, eyeglasses, and shaver blades; and as an inert ingredient of pesticides. PTFE is among the most chemically inert, nontoxic, and nonflammable substances tested under normal usage conditions, and is not metabolized. Although PTFE is not a skin irritant in rabbits or humans, or a skin sensitizer in humans, the major safety concern with PTFE is workplace exposure to its pyrolysis products, which may be irritating to the eyes, skin, and mucous membrane. PTFE pyrolysis products can also produce influenza-like symptoms (also known as ‘polymer-fume fever’). In nonclinical studies, no toxicologically significant effects were observed in rats administered 25% PTFE in the diet for 90 days. A persistent chronic inflammatory reaction that exhibited progressive tissue growth was noted at the injection site in mice, rabbits, and dogs administered a single injection of PTFE particulate in a glycerine carrier for up to 1 year. Localized fibrosarcomas have been reported with subcutaneous injection of PTFE sheets or discs in mice and rats. However, the International Agency for Research on Cancer has concluded that insufficient data exist to assess the carcinogenic risk of human exposure to PTFE. There are no known ecotoxicological effects of PTFE."


So I found PTFE sheeting to be a possibly cheap wonderful solution for lining the cap of your extraction vessel and for this tek im using a GL45 thread media bottle cap as these are the only caps I have to work with for now but I imagine that you could substitute PTFE sheeting for many other caps if you wished to get creative with it. I also notice when looking around to purchase prelined media bottle caps they tend to get pricey. I also understand that the GL45 media bottle caps are PP (polypropylene) but according to everything I've read it seems that PTFE is stronger than PP due to having a higher thermal range.

[Edit: However I am not honestly entirely sure and I wonder if cheap PTFE from amazon would be different than ordering lab grade PTFE sheeting from some other source.]





The process:

what i do is place a cap down onto a piece of PTFE sheeting and score it with a razor knife on a piece of cardboard or if you are using on a surface other than cardboard that you dont want to scratch, you can use a paper clip to scratch a line around the cap, you could also use a pen or pencil but for some reason scoring speaks to me.

score or trace around the outside of the media bottle cap (or whatever cap you plan to use) after placing onto PTFE sheeting then simply cut to fit the inside of the cap.


Even easier I have found is to cut a square bigger than the cap and to place the cap down onto the square of PTFE while it is resting on the opening of the bottle and press down to leave an imprint of the circle then cut.


If using a GL45 media bottle cap, you just want to make sure that the small inner circle of the media bottle cap is being covered with PTFE and blocking the base solution from making contact with the plastic cap.



Like this:


8fw3fb.jpg




To test to see if you have done it right fill your media bottle with water and act as if you are mixing your base then lift the PTFE liner up making sure not to spill any drops of water onto the blue cap and see if any water made it underneath. If it is dry then you were successful. If not try to cut a better fitting circle.


here are some more photos to show how it works:

8fw3m4.jpg


8fw3pc.jpg


8fw3wg.jpg



[Also if you are using this PTFE substitute method for a GL45 media bottle cap, remove the blue ring that comes with the media bottles]



Here are some links I found helpful for PTFE:
PTFE sheeting from amazon

What is PTFE?

Benzyme's comment on PTFE

Phthalates: Warning to those using plastic containers/instruments in extractions

Chemical Resistance Information for Plastic Bottles, Containers & Safety Cans

Polypropylene chemical compatibility chart

PTFE chemical compatibility chart
(Notice B rating for naptha but from my experiments I didn't notice any corrosion or degradation occur under the temperatures and times of exposure used in this extraction process. I imagine if kept to minimal contact exposure during the mixing and separating phase and keeping temperatures at a reasonable level that one would not see any changes in the PTFE, of course I have not been able to test this any other way than physical appearance meets the eye so obviously I am not sure exactly just how resistant PTFE Is to naptha but I personally haven't seen any issues with it yet but assess this risk for yourself to proceed forward.)

The different colors of PTFE in a nutshell
(Also make sure to get the white PTFE sheeting and not brown or black or any other color but white.)

[Disclaimer: if ordering any lab glassware/ equipment/ chemicals, make sure you are familiar with the laws in your area. You don't want to accidentally get yourself on a watchlist or invite unwanted trouble into your life. This disclaimer isn't necessarily in reference to PTFE sheeting but more so just as a reminder at large to keep the discretion alive for yours and others safety.]

❤️
 

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There’s no need to use Teflon sheet, pp is very resistant and has been used for packaging strong acids bases and wil have no problem with your extraction. To be honest I would worry if you use this sheeting as it looks like it has a fabric like appearance. Therefore it is quite possible that ptfe particles can end up in your extraction. Vaporization of ptfe is very unhealthy due to fluor compounds being formed and should be avoided at all cost.

My recommendation is you do not use the extract that you made with this material in the cap. And that no one wil follow your instructions to use this material.

Take care.
 
I'm just curious I'm not saying you are wrong I'd just like to know more, what does the fabric like appearance have to do with anything?


I've used this sheeting through 6 extractions now and it's shown no signs of warping or decomposition other than the warping caused by the pressure of the cap coming down onto the plastic maluating it. It will become a bit more translucent when wet but when dried out it goes back to being white.

The spice has also been appearing to come out clean as well. Although I know that identifying the trace compounds that would theoretically end up in the end product are most likely not going to be easy to identify to the eye or even in the vapor itself as I've had sessions off my own extractions and my lungs have been fine. I still go on runs and everything although I understand that doesn't necessarily negate the possibility of contamination or long term health consequences. However there is also a lot of plastics in a lot of things in our environment that we all routinely ingest, I'm sure the trace compounds that end up in a smoke sesh isn't any worse than some of the things we expose ourselves to daily.

It was honestly Benzyme's comment that really got me thinking more about PTFE and led to the rabbit hole of plastics.


However I respect the individuals choice to try and minimize as many risks and factors in their life as they see fit and for the sake of a harm reductive website that is what everyone should be trying to strive for.


I know I could be wrong at any given point though, I am still new to extraction and learning and It'd be nice to have a confirmed chemist take a look over of this before putting the axe in it.


From what I understand PTFE is used in separatory funnels and Lab equipment so I don't know why it wouldn't be okay to use? So I guess the real question would be if Amazon is an alright source of PTFE and if it really matters 🤔 and now i am curious. That is something I certainly should have thought about a little more but referring back to benzymes comment about the fear mongering of Teflon being a marketing scheme also was a good point and something to consider.



I will admit I haven't tried polypropylene on its own yet and that would also be nice to get some confirmation on that.


I would love to see where you are pulling your information from? I mean this in the best way to move forward because I certainly don't want to be putting the wrong info out there that could hurt people.



I'll leave this up as a way for others to learn from my mistake.
 
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Your absolutely right that ptfe as a material is good to use, the fabric like appearance is what’s problematic in my view. Fibers are by definition not uniform in thickness and length therefore it is very likely that in whatever extraction you do these fibers will be a part of the result. They wil not be visible to the eye because they are small, then with vaporizing the product they, depending on the method, wil decompose into toxic compounds and or wil end up in your lungs. Both should be avoided, especially when the PP cap can easily handle any extraction.

If for some other reason you really need a ptfe cap you could just order them. These caps have a solid liner and don’t have the problem of fibers.

So is there now a risk or should you be worried? I don’t think so, the amounts are very small, but should you stop its use, yes absolutely. There’s just no reason to continue the use of potential hazardous materials to solve a nonexistent problem.

Take care

Note: I have been looking at your pictures and could it be that the material is composite fabric with a fabric liner like glas fiber (because it becomes transparent when wet) and ptfe layer on top? I checked out your Amazon link and couldn’t make up what the material is exactly.

Note: a lot of ptfe is used in medical filters for liquids and gas without question about its safety.
 
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Thank you for your response I truly appreciate the information shared here and yes I am working on improving those methods.


I am actually in the process of a break right now honestly and taking a step away from all of this.


However referring back to the attitude page I couldn't help but walk away for awhile without dropping at least some weird info I've leaned in helps it can be a service of an example of what not to do or of what to do. Either way I suppose it doesn't really matter.


I geniuenly enjoy and appreciate the care and empathy expressed in the energy coming through your post and to honor that I will leave this as is.

I respect your message of take care and I also wish to you the same in the kindest regards


It sounds like you got a solid head on your shoulders.

I have made some pretty terrible mistakes in my life and I have taken the human spirit to the gutter. I have smoked and injected things that would make this servers skin crawl. I have been exposed to just about every hazardous material you can at this point from being a bottom painter for ship liners to sleeping in squat houses with asbestos. I'm probably as good as gone at this point and to answer your question I am the non existent problem I create for myself. It is the addicts curse and something I am deeply struggling with.



Take my posts as a lesson to all newbies and people to not be like me. I wish to take something from at least all the abuse on the road and all my friends that died in their 20s and somehow i am still alive when i should he dead too



I do not fear the micro plastics in my dmt but throwing the dmt out right now for other reasons.


you are correct in that there is no need to put any further harm on my body im not sure why i do it to myself to begin with its a mystery.


I suppose its better than dirty puddle water and half gallons and ive come a long way out of the gutter..

I suppose I truly never know what point I am ever trying to make.... I suppose a ban would be good for me and take this as a formal request from the mods to go ahead and do so as I am aware I have broken some rules now and I am definitely in the wrong and not serving anyone at this point or being helpful like I thought.



Much love and stay gold



And goodbye to the dmt nexus. I love and appreciate you all.
 
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He Enbalmer,

Looking back on my post I can see I that might have been a little technical about what you said. I should also have told you that I applaud your ingenuity and wish to give back to the community, because I do read that in your posts as well. Sometimes I forget the human when talking about technical stuff, sorry for that.

On your other remarks I think it’s never too late to start caring about your health, even if you never did so before. I also think it’s something that you are already doing since you a taking a break from dmt. Sometimes it is just what you need. Furthermore I’m not so sure what is making you think that you deserve a ban, it certainly isn’t this thread.

I sincerely hope you stick around for some time, take your planned break and see what happens next.

Take care
 
[Disclaimer: this is the Info I have gathered based off my first 6 extractions and my attempt to try and give back some of the Info I've learned. It is more of a theory that is still subject to change and I am learning from. I do not have access to equipment to be able to confirm nor deny the presence of plastic contamination in my end product i can only share my experiences in hopes to learn.]



What is PTFE?

"Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) is a fluoropolymer and is commonly known by its trade name, Teflon®. Unique properties of PTFE include nonreactivity, hydrophobicity, a low coefficient of friction, and good insulating properties. It is most commonly used as a nonstick coating for cookware. PTFE is also used in the manufacture of semiconductors and medical devices; as coatings for bulk chemical containers, eyeglasses, and shaver blades; and as an inert ingredient of pesticides. PTFE is among the most chemically inert, nontoxic, and nonflammable substances tested under normal usage conditions, and is not metabolized. Although PTFE is not a skin irritant in rabbits or humans, or a skin sensitizer in humans, the major safety concern with PTFE is workplace exposure to its pyrolysis products, which may be irritating to the eyes, skin, and mucous membrane. PTFE pyrolysis products can also produce influenza-like symptoms (also known as ‘polymer-fume fever’). In nonclinical studies, no toxicologically significant effects were observed in rats administered 25% PTFE in the diet for 90 days. A persistent chronic inflammatory reaction that exhibited progressive tissue growth was noted at the injection site in mice, rabbits, and dogs administered a single injection of PTFE particulate in a glycerine carrier for up to 1 year. Localized fibrosarcomas have been reported with subcutaneous injection of PTFE sheets or discs in mice and rats. However, the International Agency for Research on Cancer has concluded that insufficient data exist to assess the carcinogenic risk of human exposure to PTFE. There are no known ecotoxicological effects of PTFE."


So I found PTFE sheeting to be a possibly cheap wonderful solution for lining the cap of your extraction vessel and for this tek im using a GL45 thread media bottle cap as these are the only caps I have to work with for now but I imagine that you could substitute PTFE sheeting for many other caps if you wished to get creative with it. I also notice when looking around to purchase prelined media bottle caps they tend to get pricey. I also understand that the GL45 media bottle caps are PP (polypropylene) but according to everything I've read it seems that PTFE is stronger than PP due to having a higher thermal range.

[Edit: However I am not honestly entirely sure and I wonder if cheap PTFE from amazon would be different than ordering lab grade PTFE sheeting from some other source.]





The process:

what i do is place a cap down onto a piece of PTFE sheeting and score it with a razor knife on a piece of cardboard or if you are using on a surface other than cardboard that you dont want to scratch, you can use a paper clip to scratch a line around the cap, you could also use a pen or pencil but for some reason scoring speaks to me.

score or trace around the outside of the media bottle cap (or whatever cap you plan to use) after placing onto PTFE sheeting then simply cut to fit the inside of the cap.


Even easier I have found is to cut a square bigger than the cap and to place the cap down onto the square of PTFE while it is resting on the opening of the bottle and press down to leave an imprint of the circle then cut.


If using a GL45 media bottle cap, you just want to make sure that the small inner circle of the media bottle cap is being covered with PTFE and blocking the base solution from making contact with the plastic cap.



Like this:


8fw3fb.jpg




To test to see if you have done it right fill your media bottle with water and act as if you are mixing your base then lift the PTFE liner up making sure not to spill any drops of water onto the blue cap and see if any water made it underneath. If it is dry then you were successful. If not try to cut a better fitting circle.


here are some more photos to show how it works:

8fw3m4.jpg


8fw3pc.jpg


8fw3wg.jpg



[Also if you are using this PTFE substitute method for a GL45 media bottle cap, remove the blue ring that comes with the media bottles]



Here are some links I found helpful for PTFE:
PTFE sheeting from amazon

What is PTFE?

Benzyme's comment on PTFE

Phthalates: Warning to those using plastic containers/instruments in extractions

Chemical Resistance Information for Plastic Bottles, Containers & Safety Cans

Polypropylene chemical compatibility chart

PTFE chemical compatibility chart
(Notice B rating for naptha but from my experiments I didn't notice any corrosion or degradation occur under the temperatures and times of exposure used in this extraction process. I imagine if kept to minimal contact exposure during the mixing and separating phase and keeping temperatures at a reasonable level that one would not see any changes in the PTFE, of course I have not been able to test this any other way than physical appearance meets the eye so obviously I am not sure exactly just how resistant PTFE Is to naptha but I personally haven't seen any issues with it yet but assess this risk for yourself to proceed forward.)

The different colors of PTFE in a nutshell
(Also make sure to get the white PTFE sheeting and not brown or black or any other color but white.)

[Disclaimer: if ordering any lab glassware/ equipment/ chemicals, make sure you are familiar with the laws in your area. You don't want to accidentally get yourself on a watchlist or invite unwanted trouble into your life. This disclaimer isn't necessarily in reference to PTFE sheeting but more so just as a reminder at large to keep the discretion alive for yours and others safety.]

❤️
Go to your post office or online and grab a stack of those first class paper envelopes. They usually will hook you up for free. The envelopes are made of tyvec. You will be able to cut out a life times supply worth for next to nothing.
 
Ya I made this when I was just getting started with extraction and was excited, isolated and thought I was contributing something by making this but learned very quickly this became rather silly and is fun to look back on.

I just buy lids that come with ptfe liners now, but I appreciate the info!
 
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Question about PP. I'm looking at a compatibility chart and while it's "good" for naphtha and hexane, it's "fair" for heptane.

C = Fair, Moderate Effect, not recommended for continuous use. Softening, loss of strength, or swelling may occur.
2. Satisfactory to 120°F (48°C)

So I guess don't boil your heptane in PP.

Should people not be worried that naphtha contains heptane? Is it correct to assume when heptane is diluted in a naphtha composite that its effect on PP is diminished?

It says softening, but doesn't say dissolving. Is it wrong to assume that plastic is instantly and continuously being dissolved into solvents that can soften it? Can people get away with using plastic as long as it remains functional? (infamous turkey baster for example)


My biggest question is can plastic be removed from the spice with a mini-A/B? It's one of my biggest fears so I try to avoid any plastic, and sometimes would blame weird looking spice on plastic contamination. But if it can reliably be filtered out, that would really put my mind at ease.
 
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Ya I made this when I was just getting started with extraction and was excited, isolated and thought I was contributing something by making this but learned very quickly this became rather silly and is fun to look back on.

I just buy lids that come with ptfe liners now, but I appreciate the info!
No problem my pleasure. Thanks for taking the time to reply. I have little to share and a lot to learn. Im actually looking to upgrade my glassware a bit now for A/B extractions. Do you have an opinion on using a separatory funnel? A direction to point me in or any, info, suggestions you've learned from your trials and errors would be greatly appreciated. If you need more info from me to give an answer just let me know. Regardless I hope you and yours are smiling and doing well. Take care my friend.

 
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