Possible New Tek: No base, no solvent pulls, only water, fumaric acid, and acetone wash

[Apoc]

HELLO!!! Please tell me what you think of my idea, and why it should, or should not work.

This idea popped in to my head after doing an acetone experiment on 5g of mimosa. I did an acetone wash on untreated mimosa, shook it up, let it sit for a day, poured off the acetone, then let the acetoned mimosa extract dry. The result was 1g of dried, water soluble mimosa chunky powder with no insoluble particles. That's one fifth the entire weight of the mimosa, from a single wash. I consumed this gram of mimosa stuff along with harmalas, and the effect was minimal. From this, I concluded that mimosa oils, acids, and fats are quite soluble in acetone, but dmt isn't. Then I realized that fumaric acid is insoluble in acetone, and even better, dmt-fumarate is insoluble in acetone, and the new tek idea was born. Here it is....

1) Do your regular boils on mimosa as if you were making ayahuasca. Filter it as best you can. You now have mimosa tea with as much of the goodies locked in as you can get.

2) Add fumaric acid to the brew. The amount of fumaric acid will depend on how much mimosa is used, and the expected yield from that mimosa. I think the wiki suggests that dmt-fumarate is two parts dmt, and 1 part fumaric acid. So, if one is expecting 2% full range yield from 300g of mimosa (6g of dmt), then one would add 2g of fumaric acid, and make sure all the fumaric acid has been dissolved in water first.

3) reduce it down as far as it will go and let it dry completely. After the mimosa has completely dried to a solid, I would break up that solid mass and powder it to make sure it's completely dry. You now have a crude water soluble dmt-fumarate extract, along with all the other water soluble stuff in mimosa bark. It will probably weigh about one quarter the mass of the original bark. The reason you want it completely dry is so that the water does not mix with the acetone, which will be added in the next step. DMT-fumarate is soluble in water, which you do not want.

4) Add anhydrous acetone to your crude extract in a jar, and mix and/or shake it until it forms as much of a solution as you can get.

Am I, or am I not wrong to assume that dmt-fumarate, insoluble in acetone, will sink to the bottom of the jar?

5) Let the solution sit for a few hours, or however long you want, to make sure the precipitate settles to the bottom. Siphon off the acetone solution without sucking up any precipitate.

6) more acetone washes can be done until all the acetone no longer turns brown from the oils and inactive stuff from the mimosa.

7) allow the excess acetone to evaporate, and collect the precipitate.

Would this not lead to fairly pure full range dmt fumarate without the use of base and solvent pulls? Plus, it may even give a higher yield than the solvent method because you always wonder when working with solvents if they really did pick up every possible molecule, and also it's very difficult to siphon off every drop of solvent. But with this method, the product precipitates directly from the acetone tea, which leaves behind all the goodies, instead of relying on the solvent to pick up the goods.

99% IPA could also be used instead of acetone, I believe.

 

[MelCat]

I'm not a chemist but this sounds logical to me as well.

I'd be willing to try it once I get some of these other projects I'm working on cleared out.

 

[endlessness]

I dont think steps 4 5 and 6 would really work. I think there would be too many impurities and if it works, you would have to use tons of acetone to really get it any reasonably clean. But test it out and let us know.

I see it as more likely to work if instead, you would make basified paste of the evaporated mimosa tea, pull with acetone, FASA on the acetone to get fumarates and then do the water freebase crystallization as in BLAB. Maybe if too many impurities prevent FASA precip from working well, one could do some water washes in the basified mix which should remove some impurities but not dmt which isnt really water soluble as freebase. Also the acetone could be filtered in cottonplug/funnel (make sure funnel material is ok with acetone) several times to remove some of the color impurities before FASAing it.

Whatever comes out of this, thanks for trying to think outside the box

 

[Apoc]

Thanks for the input endlessness. No base can be added, or it defeats the purpose of this tek for me Also, I don't have faith in acetone to pull all alkaloids, so I don't want to use it that way.

Determining the effectiveness of this should be easy. One would just save the acetone, let it evaporate, then do a regular basification and solvent pulls from there, to see how much spice does not precipitate out of fumaric acid acetone mimosa tea.

 

[endlessness]

I dont understand your reasoning? Why no base? You can use a base as easy to find and non-toxic as sodium carbonate or calcium hydroxide. Plus, acetone should pull all the alkaloids in freebased mimosa (except for yuremamine, im not sure if it would survive being based, but neither would it survive your mimosa-tea step).

One thing that I was wondering though is about fumaric VS (probably) tannate, I dont know about acid strenght and if conversion to fumarate would occur as predicted. In any case its possible even if it didnt turn to fumarate, that acetone would still not pull the dmt tannate. All is theory at this point, so yeah do try your proposed method and extract after and let us know

If you want to try what I suggest too, do a side by side, even better

 

[Apoc]

I dont understand your reasoning? Why no base? You can use a base as easy to find and non-toxic as sodium carbonate or calcium hydroxide. Plus, acetone should pull all the alkaloids in freebased mimosa (except for yuremamine, im not sure if it would survive being based, but neither would it survive your mimosa-tea step).

Well, I'm not exactly anti base, but I think it would be sweet to have a tek that doesn't need it. It's just that I think using base defeats the purpose of this tek. You might as well just base as usual and forget acetone because it also pulls a lot of impurities. It's not a new tek if it utilizes the tried and true base, then solvent pull. I have a dream to create the greatest tek of all time that utilizes the least amount of chemicals, and results in highest yeilds, and is easy.

I was thinking for the experiment, I might neutralize the naturally tannic acidified mimosa tea with sodium bicarbonate before adding fumaric acid.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I have a dream to create the greatest tek of all time that utilizes the least amount of chemicals, and results in highest yeilds, and is easy.

I will be following this and I wish you the best of luck...but I think some of your goals are going to be in conflict with each other.

 

[endlessness]

It's just that I think using base defeats the purpose of this tek.

I was thinking for the experiment, I might neutralize the naturally tannic acidified mimosa tea with sodium carbonate before adding fumaric acid.

?

Maybe better try it your way then, or thats a contradiction, no?

Anyways I think that the common person is more likely to have sodium carbonate than fumaric acid, right? So maybe something that uses other easier-to-find acids would be closer to the 'greatest tek ever' ?

I dont mean to unmotivate you, not at all, as I said im glad you're willing to experiment and broaden our horizons, but I think its important to give some feedback

Also if you're using acetone, thats a solvent already.. And if you base with an easy to find base, and pull with acetone, I dont see how thats any less of a nice new exploration, than doing it as you propose.

What do you think?

 

[Rivea]

Also if you're using acetone, thats a solvent already..

My first thought when reading the title of this thread was Acetone = Hydrocarbon Solvent (and a very aggressive one at that). (CH3)2CO is a very simple ketone. It dissolves all sorts of different plastics.

 

[Apoc]

It's just that I think using base defeats the purpose of this tek.

I was thinking for the experiment, I might neutralize the naturally tannic acidified mimosa tea with sodium carbonate before adding fumaric acid.

?
Maybe better try it your way then, or thats a contradiction, no?

Oops, I meant to write sodium bicarbonate. It would only be a small amount to neutralize tannic acid. I suppose if used, this would be a BA instead of AB because the fumaric acid would be added after the baking soda. I know baking soda is a base, but it's totally food safe, and in this case, not used for the sake of freebasing the alkaloids. Anyway, it's just an idea, the more I think about it, I am confident that any dmt salt should sink to the bottom of an acetone mixture, and that's all that's needed at first, so the neutralization of tannic acid may not be necessary.

Anyways I think that the common person is more likely to have sodium carbonate than fumaric acid, right? So maybe something that uses other easier-to-find acids would be closer to the 'greatest tek ever' ?

I think the wiki says that fumarate is the only known dmt salt that is stable as a solid. I have wondered though, what dmt-citrate, or ascorbate is like if it dries? I have herd that ascorbic acid may even work as an antioxidant, which may preserve the product even longer. I don't know this for certain, but I think if dmt fumarate is insoluble in acetone, then most other salts should also be insoluble in acetone. Fumaric acid may not be crucial, but for the first try I'll be using fumaric acid because it is known to work.

Also if you're using acetone, thats a solvent already.. And if you base with an easy to find base, and pull with acetone, I dont see how thats any less of a nice new exploration, than doing it as you propose. What do you think?

My apologies, I did say that this tek requires no hydrocarbon solvents. Apparently, I have poor knowledge of what a hydrocarbon solvent is.

I notice that people look for different things in teks. There are things about toluene/xylene, and even the freeze precip with naphtha that I am uncomfortable with. For me, this tek would eliminate most or all of the difficult parts of other teks. Some other people may agree, or not care if they are comfortable working with solvents and doing various pulls and separating techniques which I apparently hate.

There's also the issue of cleaning trace amounts of solvents and bases from product that other teks have to deal with. This gets in to the nitty gritty part of extracting, which some people, like me, aren't good with. Precise work like cleaning and separating toluene are the hard parts. But for this tek, it wouldn't be an issue. Acetone is a solvent that's used to clean up other extractions.

This tek does not pull with acetone, but rather, uses acetone as a wash. It relies not on dmt solubility in a solvent, but rather entirely on dmt's insolubility in a solvent. Sometimes, I'll read other teks and be like, "why would anyone use this? Just do the easier way instead", but apparently, some people find various teks appealing for various reasons. For some reason I feel comfortable working with acetone. Maybe it's because it evaporates so quick and clean. Maybe it's because people actually use it on their bodies as nail polish remover, and is even present in food in trace amounts. Acetone seems like the best best solvent to work with for me.

Anyway, I have re-thought the tek. I agree that a potential problem with this is that there may be too many impurities for small amounts of fumaric acid to do anything if acetone is used on crude extract. Therefore, I think a better method would be to acetone wash the mimosa powder before water washing it like ayahuasca.

If I am truly confident in acetone's lack of ability to hold dmt salts, then the acetone wash can be done before the boiling, with the same effect of not pulling the dmt out. I theorize that if mimosa powder is washed with acetone, the alkaloids gravitate to the bottom, either remain with the mimosa, or stay in a layer near the mimosa. I can't decide whether I should add fumaric acid to the mimosa before adding acetone, or just add acetone straight in with the naturally salted dmt tannate. If my theory is correct, the acetone will not hold dmt in its solution, but will hold just about all of mimosas non alkaloid soluble material. I would wash with acetone, siphon off the top 90% of the solution, and do 3 acetone washes this way, or however many time until it doesn't turn dark purple.

This way, most non dmt impurities would be gone. Then, I would allow the acetone saturated mimosa to dry completely, and then make a water tea from the mimosa. The tea will probably be light purple and contain a lot less impurities. Evaporate it down, add some fumaric acid, and hopefully, when it dries, it will reveal full range fumarates. I won't know until it all evaporates what the yield is.

Once all the water evaporates, the dmt fumarate can be powdered and cleaned up with acetone, as by this time it will be confirmed that acetone does in fact pull non alkaloids impurities, while the alkaloids will remain insoluble on the bottom layer.

 

[endlessness]

As for the base, you do know that sodium carbonate can be made from sodium bicarbonate by just putting it in the oven for a couple of hours? sodium bicarb + heat = sodium carb + CO2 + H2O. This will be just as food safe as your sodium bicarb. Also calcium hydroxide is often used for food making (tortillas if im not mistaken) and its actually used by indigenous people in preparation of ethnobotanicals (calcinated shells = Calcium oxide , add water and its calcium hydroxide)

Re: Solvents, did you ever extract with limonene/orange oil? Its often taken orally daily in small amounts.

There are also the other teks with other cooking oil, I guess you've been checking them out.

I like acetone too, by the way, but I also think cooking oil is a more realistic substitution than acetone (in many places acetone is controlled). Again, please do go ahead and try this, because for other people acetone may be easy to find and they may be interested in results of this experimentation


What you said regarding what would happen to wash mimosa with acetone, the thing is, this is uncertain whether it would really work. For example, while most salts alkaloids we play with are usually insoluble in things like acetone, there has been people saying mescaline acetate IS soluble in acetone. DMT fumarate is also soluble in acetone to some extent if acetone has water and/or if its warmer. So dont throw your acetone wash away, and try normal extracting it later.

Also Im not sure about, first of all, the natural salt form in mimosa. People speculate tannate due to tannic acid but it might be otherwise too? But even if its tannate, I dont think we have any info on solubility in different solvents. I neither know how strong tannic acid is compared to fumaric, and if the reaction would really occur that it would turn into fumarate. Also I doubt it would happen dry, you would have to make paste with water and and let dry again, if it works.

Many questions, only testing will tell

 

[YTXian]

OMG! Thank you Apoc!
My poor cat has been conduting a very similar experiment, but never with the revelation that DMT isn't solved by acetone.

 

[Apoc]

OMG! Thank you Apoc!
My poor cat has been conduting a very similar experiment, but never with the revelation that DMT isn't solved by acetone.

you're welcome. I may not try it though. Seems like a lot of work when there are other methods available. However, my reason for doing this way has a lot to do with the unavailability of products that other may have. Acetone is available though. Also I just find petroleums and bases undesirable, but most other people don't seem to mind.

As others have pointed out, we do not know how much fumaric acid would be required to convert dmt-tannate to dmt-fumarate. Therefore, my solution to that would be to use excess fumaric acid in order to ensure the reaction takes place.

What I would do is an an acid acid wash of the mimosa using.... let's say 1:2 ration of fumaric acid and mimosa. So 25g of fumaric acid on 50g of mimosa. That should do it. Let the tea dry completely, and then use acetone. The dmt fumarate should precip to the bottom. You'd have to make sure your tea doesn't have any insoluble material.

However, I can foresee problems with this. I can forsee it requiring too much acetone to be desirable. Maybe the acetone/mimosa solution would be so dark it would be hard to work with.

The excess fumaric acid would have to be cleaned away. This wouldn't be hard, but it is an extra step. Dissolve the final product in a shot glass with water and mash it up. Excess fumaric acid will not dissolve. Suck away the water and that's your product.

When I hear other people talk about extraction, they make it sound so easy, but I have not found any of them to be easy, and the solvent pulls are a big reason. Perhaps it would be easier, and I would feel cleaner if I could just use a process of insolubility reduction and water washing instead of solvent pulls with bases. Plus, one would have to convert the dmt fumarate to freebase if they want to smoke it. I've learned recently that it's best to just take mimosa tea if taking orally. No point in extracting it for oral use. So for freebase, the stb is without a doubt, easier than this.

Do you think your cat might try it?

 

[Apoc]

ALRIGHT THAT'S IT!!!!!! I'm trying this tek!!! But not for mimosa, I will try it on Syrian Rue tea. I fail every time at Rue or harmala extraction, and now I am so frustrated. After researching this site, I have learned that harmala fumarate should be insoluble in acetone, so this tek should work on Syrian Rue as well. Travel log: Harmala freebase solubility in acetone - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus I'm so frustrated.

 

[joedirt]

Determining the effectiveness of this should be easy. One would just save the acetone, let it evaporate, then do a regular basification and solvent pulls from there, to see how much spice does not precipitate out of fumaric acid acetone mimosa tea.

An even easier way to determine the effectiveness of this is to find out if DMT fumarate is soluble in acetone first. Just put a small amount of DMT-fumarate into acetone and see if it dissolves. leave it for a while. Try heating it with a warm water bath. If you can't get it into solution then I'd bet your method will work very well. In fact I'm kinda inspired to give this a shot myself.


Perhaps this could be done with IPA instead of water. It would make for a much faster evaporation. Does anyone have any idea what the solubility of DMT-fumarate is in IPA? What about 70% IPA?

What about a cold/room temp IPA-fumaric acid extraction for a few day's in a sealed jar. Then just evaporate onto a dish and then continue with the rest of your method?


Peace

 

[endlessness]

DMT fumarate is not soluble in cold dry acetone or IPA, it IS soluble in hot acetone/IPA.. It can be re-xed with those solvents but it never worked as neat as dmt freebase naphtha re-x for me.

 

[joedirt]

DMT fumarate is not soluble in cold dry acetone or IPA, it IS soluble in hot acetone/IPA.. It can be re-xed with those solvents but it never worked as neat as dmt freebase naphtha re-x for me.

This would make me thing twice about this method then.