Professor John Mack seminar on "aliens"; relevance to DMT entities; Dalai Lama's view

[ajlala]

I found this very interesting seminar by Professor John E. Mack, where he is debating with an audience of prominent UFOlogists like Jacques Vallee, on the topic of "aliens".

I don't recommend watching all of it necessarily, but it contains segments which can be very relevant to the discussion of DMT entities.

1. At 55:10 in the video, he recounts what the Dalai Lama told him about "alien encounters" and "UFO" sightings.

The Dalai Lama said: "Those creatures are spirits, but they're very upset. We [modern society] are destroying their physical and spiritual home. They have no choice. The entities have to come into our physical world to get our attention. That's the only way they can communicate that, so they manifest physically."

2. Straight after, at 57:20 in the video, there is an interesting opposing (contradicting) speculation from an audience member, that if aliens were to contact us, they would do so psychically (using "soul technology" ), due to the physical obstacles to interstellar travel.

3. At 1:03:05 in the video, when they discuss whether advanced meditation practitioners have encountered "entities" - I feel like it's just a shame Rick Strassman wasn't there to discuss his DMT experiments!

Mack then alludes to alleged "alien abduction" experiences as being a kind of involuntary psychedelic experience, which spiritually unprepared people interpret as being very intrusive.

4. Mack then briefly mentions (at 1:04:05) that the Dalai Lama told him "there are stories of Tibetan monks disappearing for months, being taken away by entities", which seemed to serve the framework of that culture.


[youtube]

 

[Handel]

The big bruhaha in the whole UFO scene today is how myopic they are. Vallee and Mack correctly weaved together the "spritual" and "high strangeness" part of the UFO stories with the nuts & bolts part, but the old guard never wanted to put 2+2 together. It doesn't help that the New Age scene has added all these ridiculous channelings and beliefs into the phenomenon, muddying the waters even more.

IMHO, the only way to discern what's going on is to do scientific analysis of both the physical and the non-physical aspects. That should include proper hypnosis for both abduction claims, and hypnosis to recall psychedelic experiences that also contain classic UFO elements (e.g. the Greys, the Praying Mantis insectoid aliens that people see on shrooms/DMT etc).

Mack and Vallee were the first researchers to tie into the High Strangeness of the phenomenon, and they were laughed at by the nuts & bolts camp. Now, 20-30 years later, and younger people start to get a hint of what's really going on, but unfortunately, with a lot of muddying from the New Age camp, which is as myopic and they believe any stupid thing they hear via channeling. I'm not saying that the channelings aren't happening, but if you read the book "Dimensions" by Vallee (one of the best books ever in UFOlogy according to most people indoctrinated in ufology), you will see how these alien beings will do anything to lie, deceive and throw humanity off course, since our reality is under a "control system" (beautifully illustrated by Vallee). Another example: according to ufo researcher Linda Moulton Howe, the so called "Nordics" blonde human-like aliens, that people reported in the 1950s by the droves, are nothing by Praying Mantis aliens, foggying the contactee's perception (they have this ability, uncovered only under a hypnosis session that went deeper than usual and tried to clear up the human's meddled perception).

But where there is still really BIG resistance, and they really laugh it off in the UFO forums, is when you mention DMT to them. I have done so in the past, and they laughed it off big time, obviously by not knowing of what DMT is, and simply degrade it as a "hallucination by being high". Unless they tie it in to the overall mystery, their research will never go anywhere -- as it has not gone anywhere in the last 70 years.

At the same time, the DMT crowd needs to do more research on UFOs themselves, AND to allow mathematical explanations regarding additional spatial dimensions of existence. For example, a LOT of what's described on DMT (e.g. being able to see in 360 degrees, entities reaching out inside the body without opening holes etc) are all consistent with a 4th spatial dimensional existence (4 spatial + 1 one of time, instead of 3+1). The work of serious mathematician Clifford A. Pickover in his book "Surfing through Hyperspace: Understanding Higher Universes in Six Easy Lessons" is awesome for explaining all that. And he even looked into DMT experiences and how they tied in to his math research. Awesome research. And he has completely flew under the radar of both the UFO and the DMT crowd.

 

[DmnStr8]

This belongs on the 'Aliens' thread. Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

I have seen this video before. Old news on my end. I've been following this stuff as a fun hobby for a long time.. since I was a kid.

I think it is just a matter of time before this topic becomes much more mainstream. There are many indicators that it is already headed in that direction. I could give many examples in the mainstream news as of late. You cannot have a serious, honest conversation with social stigma holding us back. I feel like this social stigma that surrounds this topic is slowly breaking down.

Like most other biological systems on this planet, humans are largely motivated by self-preservation and conflict avoidance.

As a species, we tend to avoid associating ourselves with anything that will isolate us from the larger group or make us sound strange, or that might draw negative attention from our peers.

In essence, stigma results in a paralysis of communication.

And when left unaddressed, it exerts a chilling influence over society and across generations. This is true whether we are trying to find the cause for diseases, reasons for environmental change, or primers for global conflict. -> https://dpo.tothestarsacademy.com/b...out-unexplained-phenomena-holds-humanity-back

 

[ajlala]

Handel - thanks it's a very interesting post.

The big bruhaha in the whole UFO scene today is how myopic they are. Vallee and Mack correctly weaved together the "spritual" and "high strangeness" part of the UFO stories with the nuts & bolts part, but the old guard never wanted to put 2+2 together. It doesn't help that the New Age scene has added all these ridiculous channelings and beliefs into the phenomenon, muddying the waters even more.

IMHO, the only way to discern what's going on is to do scientific analysis of both the physical and the non-physical aspects. That should include proper hypnosis for both abduction claims, and hypnosis to recall psychedelic experiences that also contain classic UFO elements (e.g. the Greys, the Praying Mantis insectoid aliens that people see on shrooms/DMT etc).

Mack and Vallee were the first researchers to tie into the High Strangeness of the phenomenon, and they were laughed at by the nuts & bolts camp. Now, 20-30 years later, and younger people start to get a hint of what's really going on, but unfortunately, with a lot of muddying from the New Age camp, which is as myopic and they believe any stupid thing they hear via channeling. I'm not saying that the channelings aren't happening, but if you read the book "Dimensions" by Vallee (one of the best books ever in UFOlogy according to most people indoctrinated in ufology), you will see how these alien beings will do anything to lie, deceive and throw humanity off course, since our reality is under a "control system" (beautifully illustrated by Vallee). Another example: according to ufo researcher Linda Moulton Howe, the so called "Nordics" blonde human-like aliens, that people reported in the 1950s by the droves, are nothing by Praying Mantis aliens, foggying the contactee's perception (they have this ability, uncovered only under a hypnosis session that went deeper than usual and tried to clear up the human's meddled perception).

I think (with the provision that none of us know very much) that there are actually separate phenomena here.

There are UFOs which (if some sightings are true) are something closely guarded by the military, and highly classified. The most likely explanation for this phenomena would be simply another species, with far more advanced technology than us, and which is sometimes flying into the earth's atmosphere. This is not an implausible scenario.

On the other hand, people also have imaginative, dream experiences, with spiritual value, that are sometimes mixed into this topic. This accounts for most so called "alien encounters". Most likely in my opinion, this has nothing to do with real aliens, but is much more similar to the experiences of entities we have during some psychedelic trips and sleep paralysis.

This experience with "spiritual" entities was far more accepted in Ancient cultures, than in our own, and it is what the Dalai Lama is alluding to, and also a subject Jung wrote about.

The nature of these entities (which are either are contained in, or have some external existence in an area of ontology we don't understand) is highly ambivalent, and can be positive and negative, and full of trickery.

For me, the ambivalence of these entities, which can have both benevolent and malevolent qualities, is understood maybe most clearly, in Japanese folklore (which anime fans will know a lot of).

List of legendary creatures from Japan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But where there is still really BIG resistance, and they really laugh it off in the UFO forums, is when you mention DMT to them. I have done so in the past, and they laughed it off big time, obviously by not knowing of what DMT is, and simply degrade it as a "hallucination by being high". Unless they tie it in to the overall mystery, their research will never go anywhere -- as it has not gone anywhere in the last 70 years.

At the same time, the DMT crowd needs to do more research on UFOs themselves, AND to allow mathematical explanations regarding additional spatial dimensions of existence. For example, a LOT of what's described on DMT (e.g. being able to see in 360 degrees, entities reaching out inside the body without opening holes etc) are all consistent with a 4th spatial dimensional existence (4 spatial + 1 one of time, instead of 3+1). The work of serious mathematician Clifford A. Pickover in his book "Surfing through Hyperspace: Understanding Higher Universes in Six Easy Lessons" is awesome for explaining all that. And he even looked into DMT experiences and how they tied in to his math research. Awesome research. And he has completely flew under the radar of both the UFO and the DMT crowd.

I can understand the point of view of the UFO forums.

They might be more interested in establishing the reality of UFOs (detectable on radar, etc), rather than the imaginative experiences which are sometimes mixed up with them. Also in the UFO field, the mixing up of topics (with religion, dreams, psychedelics, spiritual entities) could be seen as a conspiracy to discredit them.

These are probably separate phenomena here. UFOs are of interest to the military/government, as the true ones would be a physical/technological phenomenon, and could demonstrate that the planet is visited by one or more species from other parts of the universe, far more technologically advanced than ourselves.

While the imaginative/psychological experiences which are sometimes mixed up in this, seem to relate to the field of psychology, philosophy and religion.

As the whole topic is highly unknown to us, the extent to which all these topics are separate or related (as well as ghosts, prophecies, demons, etc) is also unknown to us.

 

[ajlala]

This belongs on the 'Aliens' thread. Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

I have seen this video before. Old news on my end. I've been following this stuff as a fun hobby for a long time.. since I was a kid.

I think it is just a matter of time before this topic becomes much more mainstream. There are many indicators that it is already headed in that direction. I could give many examples in the mainstream news as of late. You cannot have a serious, honest conversation with social stigma holding us back. I feel like this social stigma that surrounds this topic is slowly breaking down.

Like most other biological systems on this planet, humans are largely motivated by self-preservation and conflict avoidance.

As a species, we tend to avoid associating ourselves with anything that will isolate us from the larger group or make us sound strange, or that might draw negative attention from our peers.

In essence, stigma results in a paralysis of communication.

And when left unaddressed, it exerts a chilling influence over society and across generations. This is true whether we are trying to find the cause for diseases, reasons for environmental change, or primers for global conflict. -> https://dpo.tothestarsacademy.com/b...out-unexplained-phenomena-holds-humanity-back

Thanks I saw your interesting topic.

I wanted to post this separately, because it's such a wild seminar towards the end, where multiple different points of view are mentioned, not all of them related to aliens (with more allusion to "entities" ).

The news related to "To the stars" is hopefully going to reveal something, but they are investigating UFOs and the possibly of finding new alloys related to this. While Mack is almost discussing a separate topic, more related to psychology and "entities", than to the UFOs which would concern the military/government, and would need to be disclosed.

 

[Handel]

I think (with the provision that none of us know very much) that there are actually separate phenomena here.

That's the part where we disagree. I think we know enough to put 2+2 together and clearly see that both the so called physical ufo phenomenon and the "psychological" are one and the same. There is no distinction between aliens from another planet and lucid dreaming, alien abductions, and DMT trips. They all tie together.

And I don't buy for one minute that the US military can control captured technology in any significant degree. They might have a few craft (IF Lazar isn't lying), but that does't mean that they have the capability to free energy and all these other conspiracies people put forth. The US government are just as powerless as you and I in this phenomenon. I believe that CIA knows most about it than anyone else, but that's about it. They can't really do that much about it apart from keeping it a secret.

Think about it. IF this was JUST aliens from another planet, why would they keep it a secret? Don't believe in the Free Energy theory, nothing is free in the universe. It's a total copout theory. The totality of the universe requires something to give-in in order for something else to happen. Yin and Yang. There's no "free" energy.

The only reason why they would go into such great lengths to keep it a secret is only if it implicates WAY more than visiting alien life. And the fact that the aliens don't really show up themselves in a clear manner, should tell you droves about their intentions.

 

[ajlala]

I think (with the provision that none of us know very much) that there are actually separate phenomena here.

That's the part where we disagree. I think we know enough to put 2+2 together and clearly see that both the so called physical ufo phenomenon and the "psychological" are one and the same. There is no distinction between aliens from another planet and lucid dreaming, alien abductions, and DMT trips. They all tie together.

I think they tie together, but mainly to the extent of being things which are outside our current understanding. This is where I would disagree a bit with you, as well as with people like Mack and Jacques Vallee.

For example, a lot of us know that precognitive dreams exist (that they actually can predict the future in impossible ways). This hints at our lack of knowledge and the incompeteness of our current science.

Likewise, with near-death experiences (in brain dead patients), ghosts, and with some aspects of the psychedelic (and "mentally ill" ) world (including the entities, angels and demons therein).

So all these things create a similar reaction in us.

But saying that UFOs and psychedelic experiences are related, could be seen as discrediting the actual ("consensus consciousness" ) reality of UFOs (if those things are actually highly advanced ships using technology we don't yet understand).

---

Strassman hypotheses that "alien abduction" experiences are just a psychedelic experience, which results from endogenous DMT release. If true, this would undermine a lot of people who claim they were actually, physically abducted, rather than having a hallucination. It's not so different to saying they are mainly a psychological reaction caused by sleep paralysis experiences (which is what I believe).

And I don't buy for one minute that the US military can control captured technology in any significant degree. They might have a few craft (IF Lazar isn't lying), but that does't mean that they have the capability to free energy and all these other conspiracies people put forth. The US government are just as powerless as you and I in this phenomenon. I believe that CIA knows most about it than anyone else, but that's about it. They can't really do that much about it apart from keeping it a secret.

Think about it. IF this was JUST aliens from another planet, why would they keep it a secret? Don't believe in the Free Energy theory, nothing is free in the universe. It's a total copout theory. The totality of the universe requires something to give-in in order for something else to happen. Yin and Yang. There's no "free" energy.

The only reason why they would go into such great lengths to keep it a secret is only if it implicates WAY more than visiting alien life. And the fact that the aliens don't really show up themselves in a clear manner, should tell you droves about their intentions.

I think UFOs (if real in "consensus reality"!) would also create panic, undermine government authority and undermine some religious points of view.

They would also show that the government has been lying and covering up the topic for years (so that would be the biggest political scandal in history).

And they might also have a lot of defense relevant, if they hinted at technologies which would allow some governments to gain an advantage over others, and our own potential defenselessness.

So I could see the "UFO conspiracy theory" as being plausible to some extent (although I'm still a bit sceptical as there are so many fakes in this topic).

This documentary was quite plausible:
[youtube]

 

[Handel]

But saying that UFOs and psychedelic experiences are related, could be seen as discrediting the actual ("consensus consciousness" ) reality of UFOs (if those things are actually highly advanced ships using technology we don't yet understand).

Strassman hypotheses that "alien abduction" experiences are just a psychedelic experience, which results from endogenous DMT release. If true, this would undermine a lot of people who claim they were actually, physically abducted, rather than having a hallucination.

This is exactly where your difficulty lies. It is EITHER or OR for you. They are either physical, or they're a hallucination, in your book. And that's a mistaken approach to see the phenomenon IMHO. You see, if you're a 4D creature, you can be BOTH. You can lower down in 3D if you must, and you can be in 4D if you choose to. And 4D comes with its own bag of physical laws, which DOES explain a lot of paranormal things like telepathy (sound has much difficulty to propagate in a 4-spatial dimensional reality, which could force beings to develop telepathy) and even appearings and disappearings (watch the numerous youtube videos explaining how a 3D being would look to a 2D being, to understand how 4D ghosts/light beings would look to a 3D being etc). Heck, it even explains how aliens "walk through walls" to come and abduct people. In reality, they don't. They walk "around" the walls. This is a natural, 4D physical law that enables them to do that. But since our brains are 3D, we perceive them as walking through walls. Or in countless DMT trips, beings making operations by removing things from inside our body without ever having to make a cutting! All these are well understood math/physics IF you add an additional spatial dimension into the equation. It explains pretty much all the "unexplainable" things. And when that explanation kicks in, suddenly, it's not so much "things we don't yet understand", but rather "things we haven't bothered adding to our research portfolio" -- the math exists! The book I mentioned above is your peak into it.

As for the abductions themselves, they're a mixed bag. Some are done in 3D space, while the majority, happens in 4D space (the so called, out of body experiences). We have a physical existence in multiple dimensions, we don't just exist in one. And since one "body" is connected to the other (being the same being), they can work on the 4D body and still change the 3D one. I mean, most of the people who undergo hypnosis, also mention how they speak to other humans aboard a UFO telepathically. Humans in 3D are not telepathic (at least not to a great degree). But their 4D selves can be.

Think of it this way: you have 2 arms and 2 legs, but when you're in 3D space, you can only move 1 arm and 1 leg. The other ones are limb. When you switch to 4D space, you enable the other set, and vice versa. You're still 1 body, and one part can affect the other, but different dimensions give you different access to parts of yourself. Different awareness.

So no, UFOs not always being "physical" (as in, 3D physical) does NOT invalidate ANY alien abduction, or DMT trip. They're always physical in reality. Just not tuned at the same frequency all the time.

They would also show that the government has been lying and covering up the topic for years (so that would be the biggest political scandal in history).

The government has to lie about it. It was the right decision to cover it up from the get go. If humans were ready for THIS kind of interdimensional aliens (instead of regular ETs), then the aliens themselves would appear to us plainly. Again, the fact that they don't, says droves both about them, AND the actual reality of things being way more complicated than we think. Hint: when there's reincarnation mixed into all this, the government can't, and shouldn't, disclose anything.

I know my mom ain't ready for such truths. Or my dad. Or pretty much 99% of the people I know.

 

[ajlala]

But saying that UFOs and psychedelic experiences are related, could be seen as discrediting the actual ("consensus consciousness" ) reality of UFOs (if those things are actually highly advanced ships using technology we don't yet understand).

Strassman hypotheses that "alien abduction" experiences are just a psychedelic experience, which results from endogenous DMT release. If true, this would undermine a lot of people who claim they were actually, physically abducted, rather than having a hallucination.

This is exactly where your difficulty lies. It is EITHER or OR for you. They are either physical, or they're a hallucination, in your book. And that's a mistaken approach to see the phenomenon IMHO.

I'm not trying to say it has to be either/or. Just that connecting them together requires additional assumptions (which may or may not be true)

My view is that we need evidence that they are all the same phenomena - beyond the psychological fact that all unknown topics (whether ghosts, UFOs, telepathy, etc) can produce a similar emotion in us.

It is useful to keep our ordinary distinction between real and imaginary phenomena. I might be tripping and imagine I can fly - but I will still fall when I jump out the window (as has happened to trippers in a number of famous cases, where they jump out of windows and are killed, while on psilocybin, LSD or Salvia).

At the same time, that doesn't mean the hallucinations about flying were not interesting (and that our visions of flight don't have some important neurological, psychological, spiritual basis).

The strongest question about UFOs, seems to be one of ordinary reality. Whether they are real phenomena in ordinary reality (supposedly being measurable on radar screens), and then (if intelligently piloted) whether they are flown from another planet.

On the other hand, it seems to me, the question about entities (experienced in trips), alien abduction, angels and demons, etc, is much more one of our psychology and religion (spirituality).


---

Now should we bundle these different things together and use one to explain the other? It is possible they are the same thing or connected?

One might posit a spirit world which can interact with the physical world, and then say that UFOs are a part of the spirit world.

But one has then added some extra assumptions to the ones UFOlogists already believe in (that UFOs exist).

1. Existence of something like a "spirit world" (or entities existing in a fourth dimension, etc).
2. Spirit world can interact physically with ordinary world not only through our minds.
3. UFOs are part of that spirit world.

Even if one accepted assumption 1 and 2 could be true, it's possible assumption 3 could be false (that it would be true, requires an additional assumption).

So while it's possibly true, it's adding more assumptions, which seems to reduce the theory's overall probability (that all the assumptions would be true).

You see, if you're a 4D creature, you can be BOTH. You can lower down in 3D if you must, and you can be in 4D if you choose to. And 4D comes with its own bag of physical laws, which DOES explain a lot of paranormal things like telepathy (sound has much difficulty to propagate in a 4-spatial dimensional reality, which could force beings to develop telepathy) and even appearings and disappearings (watch the numerous youtube videos explaining how a 3D being would look to a 2D being,

Thanks, I haven't studied this area of maths/geometry, and would indeed be interested. I need to restudy maths (not on this level though) to change my next degree course.

Or in countless DMT trips, beings making operations by removing things from inside our body without ever having to make a cutting! All these are well understood math/physics IF you add an additional spatial dimension into the equation. It explains pretty much all the "unexplainable" things. And when that explanation kicks in, suddenly, it's not so much "things we don't yet understand", but rather "things we haven't bothered adding to our research portfolio" -- the math exists! The book I mentioned above is your peak into it.

Personally, I believe alien abduction reports are more a psychological topic, than a physical topic (until there is more strong public evidence of people being physically abducted).

As for the connection to trip and dream experiences. It could be (and I just suggest this as another alternative) that the psychological experience which can sometimes occur during breakthrough drug-induced hallucinations (of entities doing some kind of operation with your body, while your are lying down), explains why some sober people within the same culture report alien abduction.

So, to take another example:

1. We know that after taking certain substances (e.g. meth, THC), we can sometimes induce intense paranoia experiences, where the user believes people are plotting against them, watching them, etc.

2. At the same time, we know some other people have intense paranoia without taking drugs (although it can associated with certain mental illnesses, while in other cases it can be very true - people really might be plotting against them in reality).

But is the commonality between the two experiences (drug-induced and sober) evidence that the paranoia itself is true in an ordinary literal sense (people are actually plotting against them, watching them, etc)?

Or is this evidence that there may be a common psychological basis underlying paranoia, and which can be induced chemically?

They would also show that the government has been lying and covering up the topic for years (so that would be the biggest political scandal in history).

The government has to lie about it. It was the right decision to cover it up from the get go. If humans were ready for THIS kind of interdimensional aliens (instead of regular ETs), then the aliens themselves would appear to us plainly. Again, the fact that they don't, says droves both about them, AND the actual reality of things being way more complicated than we think. Hint: when there's reincarnation mixed into all this, the government can't, and shouldn't, disclose anything.

I know my mom ain't ready for such truths. Or my dad. Or pretty much 99% of the people I know.

Wouldn't this be a return, or rephrasing, of our ancestral beliefs? This is why the Dalai Lama was so blasé about the question, when Mack asked him it.

Perhaps your parents will not accept those views. But your great-great-great grandparents, surely believed in them.

Historically we had a belief that demons, fairies, and all creatures of folklore, come into the physical world from another dimension, steal people away, possess people, etc.

It might even make it easier to explain recent history: Hitler certainly seems to have been demonically possessed.

I'm not sure this would be a government position however. I get an impression they are more interested in a possibility that there could be spaceships of unknown origin (and much higher technology than we have) entering the air-space they claim to be able to secure, with the most sensitive alleged sightings being reported near nuclear weapons sites.

 

[Handel]

Personally, I believe alien abduction reports are more a psychological topic, than a physical topic (until there is more strong public evidence of people being physically abducted).

What I don't like in what you suppose is that you believe that it's "all in their heads". That's what "psychological" implies. However, it is statistically impossible to have all these people under hypnosis (or the DMT trippers who often don't even believe in UFOs) to recall the exact same things. The same beings, the same abduction procedure, the same experiments, the same indoctrination by the beings. That alone is clue. It's very unlikely for this to be an archetype, because it's too elaborate and complex and with a logical procedure. Archetypes are much simpler.

I need to mention here that Vallee fought the abduction stories all the way from the late 60s to early 90s. He completely made a turn in the 90s, after Mack's research, and his own research. He couldn't put it off as hallucinations anymore.

Physical evidence will never be found of an abduction though, because as I wrote earlier, the vast majority of these happens in 4D (or 3.5D, there's not a clear boundary), and not in 3D physical. If they have to come to 3D, either it's very rare, or they'll never bring the abductee back. Pray that it's never 3D physical!

Please have a look at this short video btw which explains how 3D looks to a 2D being, and how 4D looks to a 3D being

Same mathematician guy, explains how you can go "around" things in 4D (e.g. walking through walls):

Read the comments too, because it's usually from people who are interested in it mathematically, so it's free from New Age agendas.

I will leave you with this: notice how things morph in dreams. This is because of our inability to parse 4D with our 3D brains. This is why our brain also uses symbolism in dreams. When we can't comprehend something, the brain (being a pattern-matcher) will pick the closest resemblance thing it can comprehend.

I pose that dreams are not just dreams. I propose that when we're dreaming, we're in a 4D space. But the brain's filter is not off, so it tries to make 3D sense out of a 4D world (hence dreams being totally crazy and messy).

With DMT, the filter turns off. Which is why we are able to see 4D in all its glory, incomprehensibly beautiful and "psychedelic". When for example, we see a weird morphing entity in DMT, it doesn't mean that this is how that entity looks like among its peers of the same "race" of beings. They could look completely normal among them, for all we know. But since our brain can't comprehend their world, and our brain filter is OFF, we see a pure non-Euclidean existence, raw, and uninhibited. We're just not evolved enough to fully function to such a dimension. Hence "The Waiting Room", where the entities there decide if someone is ready for a raw experience or not.

But you've been in hyperspace. Countless times. Even without the use of DMT. Dreaming alone will get you there, even if you can't bring back the memories, because memories created there don't always translate here. Natural side-effect.

 

[DmnStr8]

Good conversation! I tend to lean towards Handel's line of thinking here. That said, Handel, I think your last post on this thread was certainly something we should all ponder, even if it just for fun. I feel there are some things in this universe we simply do not understand yet. I do not feel we fully understand the brain and consciousness, we do not fully understand how 'reality' works.

The best thing to say is "I don't know." and go from there. Talking in certainties and disqualifying any claim that doesn't fit into what we currently understand is faulty thinking. We can point to history for the dangers of doing this. I would be burned at the stake as a witch if I went back in time and told them of the technologies available in 2018. I don't think it is too far fetched to suggest that 200 years from now we could certainly be in the same boat. We would tell this time traveler to kick rocks and may even react in a violent way as they did with witch hunts.

This topic is largely avoided by many because it can have a tendency to challenge conventional thinking. For this reason, many people on this planet will have a hard time accepting an alien disclosure. I would expect a violent reaction to be honest. Rednecks shooting in the sky. Some religions would call them demons. Chaos would likely take hold for a short time until we learned about our visitors. I feel the disclosure of a '4d reality' would have the same outcome.

The stigma is holding us back. It's holding us back from many things. I think we could learn much more about the brain, consciousness and the universe if we could seriously study the effect of psychedelics has on our brains. I often think about what we could uncover about ourselves if this stigma surrounding psychedelics were removed. Because it has this stigma, the progress remains hendered. The same could easily be said about the topic of aliens and ufo's.

Using DMT as an example. Many people would say I do not understand this, therefor it is in this box over here. I will not look in this box. Well, I looked in the box, as many of us have, and found something worth talking about. I found information if anything. When I try to explain what information I found in this box to those who have not seen inside, it is pointless. I am in that moment the shunned time traveller. If the stigma was removed I could give my accounts of what is in the box without fear of being ridiculed or worse.

What I like about this conversation is this. You are talking about it in a serious way. It's not played out as a joke. Not ridiculed. I have brought up psychedelics, 4d, aliens, and other topics that have a stigma attached to them and 9 times out of 10 the conversation goes no where. Someone always wants to ridicule, dismiss and return to there confort zone. To be honest, I am surprised someone has not chimed in yet to make fun of this thread. Happened on the 'Aliens' thread. It will always be a joke to some people. That is why we are stuck as a human species. We get stuck in thinking we know everything and redicule anything we don't understand.

 

[Handel]

Actually, we know a lot more than you think we do. We just don't want to mix different disciplines. We're like kids, who want their rice and carrots separate on their plate (I know of such a kid).

I'd highly recommend you take the time and you watch this video by Donald Hoffman PhD, who is among the foremost experts in consciousness today. He doesn't have all the answers, but he's closest than anyone else IMHO:

I will leave you with a Damon Lindelof quote, the producer and show runner of the TV mystery show, LOST, who multiple times he has said something like: "Viewers don't really want answers, even if they claim they do. They want a never-ending mystery isntead".

 

[null24]

This is a good convo. This topic does not get addressed enough, and when it does it's so muddled and confused that the discussion rarely results in any kind of greater understanding.

I'm not a UFO scholar by any means but the topic has fascinated me since childhood. I'm familiar with Keel, and Valee, and some other researchers who have looked into the High Strangeness connections and feel they are closer to on spot with their arguments.

It's difficult; we like to parse our information out so it can be easily understood on any topic, but this cannot be apprehended or comprehended in such a way. It's not black and white, nor even greys- there's an entire spectrum of experience threaded through belief structures, religion, spirituality and the social matrix of "consensus reality'.

What if all of its true but none of it is? That is, this is all happening but we are so off that every supposition humanity has made is wrong? Time-traveling humans from an alien dimension projecting their solid high technology craft through hyperspace portals using psychic connections with people who are on DMT, altering reality as they do? Or not.

I've been party to paranormal high strangeness as a child, manifesting telekinesis, premonition, seeing and interacting spirits in real time, ball lightning inside, "reality slips" in which i experience something that nobody else in the room does-i.e. TV show is different- but I've never seen a UFO. But in breakthrough DMT experiences, I've been on that weird alien operating table surrounded by greys. Coming down from my first experience with 5meoDMT, i had a vision of a planetary system that i could perceive some signal from if i turned my head to the "right" position. These are my experiences, that is all I'm saying about them; I'm not even saying i didn't hallucinate them.

But there is a connection. Between DMT and aliens. Whatever aliens are. I don't buy that the government has alien craft in secret storage. Roswell was a weather balloon, Rendlesham is a train wreck, and as far as abduction, i have no idea where Travis Walton went off to.

Tl,DR: IDK, but there's some weirdness going on, and nobody knows what the hell it is. I feel that's my life's mission, a quest for weirdness.

 

[DmnStr8]

Actually, we know a lot more than you think we do. We just don't want to mix different disciplines. We're like kids, who want their rice and carrots separate on their plate (I know of such a kid).

I'd highly recommend you take the time and you watch this video by Donald Hoffman PhD, who is among the foremost experts in consciousness today. He doesn't have all the answers, but he's closest than anyone else IMHO:

I will leave you with a Damon Lindelof quote, the producer and show runner of the TV mystery show, LOST, who multiple times he has said something like: "Viewers don't really want answers, even if they claim they do. They want a never-ending mystery isntead".

I enjoyed the video!(with exception to the interviewer) Very interesting stuff!

I agree that Dr. Hoffman is pointing in the right direction, however, I feel that we have still only scratched the surface. I often think about someone in the same caliber as Dr. Hoffman trying DMT. I would be interested to hear what he thinks about the experience. Perhaps this DMT experience could lead him to some new ideas and theories which he could build off of. He says we are reality engines. I wonder what his thoughts on reality engines would be after a few tokes of DMT.

 

[ajlala]

Personally, I believe alien abduction reports are more a psychological topic, than a physical topic (until there is more strong public evidence of people being physically abducted).

What I don't like in what you suppose is that you believe that it's "all in their heads". That's what "psychological" implies. However, it is statistically impossible to have all these people under hypnosis (or the DMT trippers who often don't even believe in UFOs) to recall the exact same things. The same beings, the same abduction procedure, the same experiments, the same indoctrination by the beings. That alone is clue. It's very unlikely for this to be an archetype, because it's too elaborate and complex and with a logical procedure. Archetypes are much simpler.

I need to mention here that Vallee fought the abduction stories all the way from the late 60s to early 90s. He completely made a turn in the 90s, after Mack's research, and his own research. He couldn't put it off as hallucinations anymore.

I understand your point of view.

If we find commonality of experience across different people, including both drug-induced and non-drug induced, as well as across different historical times, then this could imply the phenomenon is real (in the sense of "not just psychological or spiritual" ).

But in my opinion, the commonality seems to imply more the opposite - that it is a type of experience which can be induced (or we can sometimes access) when certain parts of the brain are activated chemically (and is therefore not necessarily related to the real UFOs which can chase fighter aircraft, and which as a separate topic may or may not be real, and could well be a result of another physical species actually visiting this planet).

Strassman chemically induced alien abduction experiences in experimental conditions, inside a hospital (as plenty have done in their own homes), without any need for UFOs or physical manifestations. This fact can support either my point of view, or your point of view.

But your interpretation requires positing some additional assumptions.

---

I find the most interesting comment on the topic mentioned in Mack's seminar, to be the Dalai Lama's. He believes this (alien abduction) is an interpretation of an experience with "spiritual entities", which break through into sober people as a result of our society not respecting the spiritual world.

His view of the phenomenon, is effectively expressed in the story of Princess Mononoke in which the forest spirits (Kodama in Shinto) look identical to the "grey aliens" .

In Princess Mononoke, the spirits are killed and chased out of the forest by modern society. As a result, they can return angrily (including as a curse).

 

[ajlala]

What if all of its true but none of it is? That is, this is all happening but we are so off that every supposition humanity has made is wrong? Time-traveling humans from an alien dimension projecting their solid high technology craft through hyperspace portals using psychic connections with people who are on DMT, altering reality as they do? Or not.

Arthur C. Clarke wrote: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

If alien spaceships physically visited earth, they would require a level of technology (particularly in terms of their method of propulsion), that would appear to our airforces as being almost magical.

That doesn't mean they (a more technologically advanced species) would actually be the same magical or spiritual entities that we encounter in our dreams/hallucinations.

Mankind is very much in its technological infancy. We have only had electric light bulbs for 150 years (and yet within 150 years, we have now turned this into microprocessor powered iPhones). If other extraterrestrial civilizations exist, they may have had thousands of years of technological development, making interstellar travel physically solvable.

But this need not have a real relation to our metaphysical experiences (which is how I would interpret "alien abduction" reports). The fact might be that in our disenchanted world (where we no longer believe in fairies, angels and demons), people interpret shamanistic type experiences using concepts of "aliens" (where we formerly would view them as being fairies, angels and demons). This would be because aliens are one of the last mysteries our society still believes in.

It could well be that both of these facts are true. UFOs do sometimes visit the earth. At the same time, many people have hallucinations and interpret them according to this theme (as our other spiritual beliefs have been extinguished).

---

In my view, these could be very separate topics (UFOs which the airforce experiences, and interpretations of encounters with the spiritual world during dreams and hallucinations).

The alien abduction topic, in particular, has something in common with the "Satanic ritual abuse" phenomenon of the 1980s.

"Buckey's ordeal began in 1983, when the mother of a 2½-year-old who attended the McMartin preschool in Manhattan Beach, California, called the police to report that her son had been sodomized there. It didn't matter that the woman was eventually found to be a paranoid schizophrenic, and that the accusations she made – of teachers who took children on airplane rides to Palm Springs and lured them into a labyrinth of underground tunnels where the accused "flew in the air" and others were "all dressed up as witches" ..."

Day-care sex-abuse hysteria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Under hypnotic regression, the children recalled that they were abducted into underground tunnels by the teachers, below the school.

These tunnels were even investigated:

In 1990, parents who believed their children had been abused at the preschool hired archeologist E. Gary Stickel to investigate the site. In May 1990, Stickel claimed he found evidence of tunnels, consistent with the children's accounts, under the McMartin Preschool using ground-penetrating radar.[41]

Others have disagreed with Stickel's conclusions. John Earl wrote in 1995 that the concrete slab floor was undisturbed except for a small patch where the sewer line was tapped into. Once the slab was removed, there was no sign of any materials to line or hold up any tunnels

McMartin preschool trial - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I would tentatively suggest that the dreams of the children and their parents show something about the common psychological (even spiritual) structure of our dreams, because what the children produced under hypnotic regression has similarities to what alien abduction experiencers report (particularly under hypnotic regression).

I saw another video about one of Mack's patients, who said that as a child he was taken by the aliens into an underground tunnel, which is essentially the same vision that was reported by the McMartin preschool children (except the children at McMartin reported it was their teachers who did it).

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

I don't want to be a party pooper, but has anyone ever double-checked this with the Dalai Lama? I wouldn't be surprised to hear he never even met John Mack, let alone said any of these things attributed to him.

I talked to the Pope yesterday, and he told me that DMT entities and grey aliens are actually angels, and visit us to perform surgeries on the people selected by Jesus, to prepare us for the apocalypse that will come soon.

Well no I didn't. But I had no difficulty saying that I did, and the pope probably wouldn't bother correcting me if I said this in a sufficiently fringe community.

As for hypnosis, I'm versed in it, and it's completely useless for recovering memories. In fact, it's no longer used in forensic and court settings anymore, because most 'memories' presented under hypnosis have been solidly proven to be pure confabulation (fiction). The aforementioned satanic panic was mainly fueled by the misuse of hypnosis, and resulting false accusations. Also, to make matters even worse, there is a chance that the subject comes to believe the truth of these fictious, fantasy accounts because of the trance experience.