Rätsch claims that fresh coca is inactive?!

[Entropymancer]

I was reading through the Erythroxylum coca entry in the Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants, and came across the following:

The leaves must be dried before use or they will not produce the intended effects

Now I'm perplexed. I can't think of any possible reason why this should be the case; as long as the mouth is sufficiently alkaline for most of the cocaine to exist in the free base form, why should it matter if the leaves were dried? I'm inclined to think that Rätsch must have got his facts wrong somehow... and of course he provides no citation for this claim, so it's hard to know where he got the notion in the first place.

Does anyone have any experience to the contrary? Does anyone have access to a live coca plant to test this out?

 

[clouds]

Interesting...

I'm reading that the "aborigines" (Chanceo, Pijcheo o mambeo) used to cut around 20 fresh leaves and then they proceeded to dry them behind the sun. Then they placed the bunch in their mouth and even after that they added alkalizing substances to cause the liberation of the alkaloids...

Método de consumo aborigen:

Las formas de consumo se han enriquecido: Las hay naturales, molidas, en harina o infusiones.

El consumo natural o aborigen (Chanceo, Pijcheo o mambeo) se ha hecho seleccionando cerca de una veintena de hojas que presenten color verde intenso las que luego de haber sido secadas al sol, son convertidas en una bola que al ser alojada en la boca y sostenida entre dientes y mejilla se busca humedecerla con la saliva. Al estar suficientemente humedecida, aún en la boca, se le acompaña con un alcalinizante para ablandar las hojas y estimular la liberación de los componentes: Sal calcárea (Yista o Llucta en Bolivia), mambe (sustancia mineral previamente quemada por los aborígenes en Colombia), con cal apagada o ceniza de quinua o polvo de caracol molido, cenizas de algunas plantas como el cereal llamado quimoa, con el agregado de puré de papas o con algo de bicarbonato de sodio para hacerla más agradable . Seguidamente la bolita no se masca, y al término de 45 minutos se consigue la absorción de todo su jugo. Práctica ésta de consumo que ha recibido diferentes nombres según la cultura -Chanceo en Perú, Mambeo en Colombia, Pijcheo en Bolivia-, actividad que está lejos de ser clasificada de toxicológica (para lograr 1 gr. de alcaloide se requieren al menos 140 hojas de coca).

They say about the same thing in the very first paragraph of this website. (and they are not referring to aborigine techniques)

Maybe Rätsch is right?

 

[Phantastica]

hmm interesting..it is perplexing indeed, since i don't see how drying it can alter the alkaloid content..even though i guess its possible through degradation of certain substances.
got a question: why must the coca leaves be chewed with an alkaline? it would convert to a salt upon absorption by the stomach acids anyways, no?
clouds, wish i could read spanish. always wrote the grammar rules on my arm before the test

 

[newdimensions]

got a question: why must the coca leaves be chewed with an alkaline? it would convert to a salt upon absorption by the stomach acids anyways, no?

Given how effective cocaine can be insufflated, I'd venture to guess that the alkaoids (of this plant which I know next to nothing about, but moving on past that...) are best absorbed into mucous membranes, such as the inside of the mouth, rather than in the stomach, and everything seems to be best absorbed in the nose and mouth when basified.

 

[polytrip]

I don't think it has anything to do with chemistry. When you want to extract some plant material it's always best to have it dried first. It's probably because plantcells in fresh leaves already have water and juices inside them, making it harder for water to penetrate the membranes and thus to dissolve the present alkaloïds...just a speculation.

 

[Infundibulum]

I was reading through the Erythroxylum coca entry in the Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants, and came across the following:

The leaves must be dried before use or they will not produce the intended effects

Now I'm perplexed. I can't think of any possible reason why this should be the case; as long as the mouth is sufficiently alkaline for most of the cocaine to exist in the free base form, why should it matter if the leaves were dried? I'm inclined to think that Rätsch must have got his facts wrong somehow... and of course he provides no citation for this claim, so it's hard to know where he got the notion in the first place.

Does anyone have any experience to the contrary? Does anyone have access to a live coca plant to test this out?

What if the fresh leaves have something that inhibits cocaine absorption that gets degraded through the drying process?

 

[endlessness]

Well raetsch does make some weird claims like for example he says in the encyclopedia that harmaline is the main component of B caapi, and other doubtful claims without data to back up.... But who knows. I've tried tea but only of dry leaves... It did seem to have an effect but cant discount placebo.

 

[clouds]

Found this...



"Tratado de cuidados críticos y emergencias II"
Luis Miguel Torres Morera, et al.
Arán Ediciones, Madrid. 2002

Link

Chapter 47

3.7 Cocaine

3.7.1 Epidemiological importance

The origins of coca leaves mastication are very old and are located in the tropical American areas even before the Inca civilization, but this method of ingestion has no relation with todays actual use. In those times, coca leaves consumption was a socially accepted cultural component. The substance levels obtained by the mastication of fresh leaves were low, and its place could be compared to what coffee or tea consumption occupies in our culture.

 

[BananaForeskin]

If the tribes tended to dry the leaves before consumption, I can see it raising the question: Why do they dry them?
Three possible answers which an anthropologist might put forth:

1. The fresh leaves have no actives.
2. Drying them preserves them for later use, a necessity in a hot, humid climate.
3. If the leaves are dry, you can cram more of them in your mouth.

Probably someone along the line cited only option number one, etc etc, until finally the Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants has a misentry based on speculation. Once again, the game of telephone wins against the world of academics.

 

[polytrip]

If the tribes tended to dry the leaves before consumption, I can see it raising the question: Why do they dry them?
Three possible answers which an anthropologist might put forth:

1. The fresh leaves have no actives.
2. Drying them preserves them for later use, a necessity in a hot, humid climate.
3. If the leaves are dry, you can cram more of them in your mouth.

Probably someone along the line cited only option number one, etc etc, until finally the Encyclopedia of Psychoactive Plants has a misentry based on speculation. Once again, the game of telephone wins against the world of academics.

Yeah, the concentration of cocaine and other maybe usefull compounds like riboflavine is probably higher in dried leaves as well.
But i still think that dry leaves will just more easily absorb fluids and therefore be more easily exracted. I tried to make tea from fresh tealeaves once and it just didn't work. You have to dry the leaves. Fresh leaves have some waxy sort of coating on them and mixing them with hot water just leaves them relatively untouched by the hot water. The waxy layer makes the leaves sort of inpenetrable for water.
As we all know, with dried tealeaves this isn't the case.