Report: Trying my luck with a Cuzco

[brewster]

Hi guys,
so, after almost a decade of abstinence, I decided that the time has come to consult the plant gods again. I'd like to share my plans and experience with you, and I'd appreciate any comment you might have.

My first try at this will involve some 800g of cacti which are presumably Cuzcoensis. I did my reading and know that there's a substantial chance for them being inactive or very weak. I bought these fellas some 10 years ago as Peruvianus (same story every year ).

Tried them twice before when I actually needed to take cuttings because one of them has toppled over and was damaged. Once there was nothing at all, another time, there was a light, but remarkable experience. Both times, I didn't have a lot, maybe 100g - 200g fresh flesh that I just ate. But this was a pretty young and small cactus.

This time, I have taken a cutting from a much larger specimen. The young one almost didn't have any taste, this one is... intense! When I split it lengthwise, a pretty pungent aroma appeard, and I cut some fruit for breakfast with the same knife - the whole breakfast tasted like cactus :surprised . Didn't expect that. It was not the plant that I had to try a year ago, so all bets are off.

I read about preparation methods until my head started spinning, and decided to go with Freeze / Thaw / Blend. I'll see what comes out, but right now, the cuttings really don't look so intimidating. It's hard to imagine that they're so difficult to consume in raw form. I'm freezing them now for the 2nd time, the plan is to blend and drink as is, no straining. I removed the spines, and will make a small tea extract from that, since there's quite a bit of dark green flesh, it would have taken hours to separate all that.

When I ate the 200g, I didn't experience any discomfort, but that was of course much less material from a small young cactus.

So, it all is a big surprise as of now. There's a reasonable chance that nothing will happen at all, but maybe I've stumbled upon the missing potent Cuzco? Wish me luck...

Here's some pics to see what I've been up to. Thanks for reading 8)

 

[0_o]

How was it obtained and identified as a cuzconoid?

 

[Grey Fox]

The fat blue ones are supposed to be the most consistently active of the Peruvianus types. I have a plant with a similar phenotype as yours that was also sold to me as a Peruvianus and it turned out to be active but weak. I'm not sure if it has cuzcoensis genetics or if its just a weak Peruvianus. Cuzcoensis is probably just a sub-type of Peruvianus anyway.

I'm looking forward to the report of your experience.

 

[brewster]

@: Obtained as "peruvianus" via ebay. I posted pictures in a cactus group, there it was identified as Cuzco.

@Grey Fox: Well, who knows? It seems though that it has been correctly identified, and I haven't stumbled upon the magic Cuzco.

After 2x freezing and thawing, I put everything in a blender and turned it into sorbet. Blender was destroyed in this process :shock: . Yeah - I was quite surprised at the almost 2 liters of slimy sorbet this yielded - the cuttings looked pretty compact.

I did actually consume it all, took me 1,5 hours and quite a bit of willpower. This was completed about 4 hours ago. I didn't feel sick after it, the taste wasn't bad at all - but the slimyness of it all made it quite difficult.

So far, I'm not feeling any effects at all. It seems unlikely that this will change, so... I guess this got me a lot of healthy antioxidants though! :roll:

 

[Grey Fox]

Thats too bad that there was no effect. So what do you think happened that one time you consumed it and had a "light" effect? Is this plant's activity right at the threshold level or was that more of a placebo experience that other time?

With Trichocereus cacti the taxonomy is not fully set and people still debate how to classify some of these species. Some people consider Cuzcoensis to be its own species and others consider it to be a subspecies of Peruvianus. And of course there are also hybrids. I'm not sure exactly where your plant stands but my best guess would be Peruvianus with some Cuzcoensis genetics. Like I said in the earlier post, if you're looking for a more consistently active Peruvianoid form then the fat blue Peruvianus like what you see with the Matucana types and the Icaros types and even with many plants labeled Macrogonus is probably the way to go. And of course there's always Bridgesii.

 

[brewster]

Yeah, a pity. Last time? Difficult to say. I mean, the powers of placebo are strong, so I can't dismiss that pssibility completely. The thing is,t I didn't really expect anything back then, and it hit me as quite a surprise. So, maybe not placebo. It was a different plant than this one - might be more potent, seed-grown, they're all individuals, right?
Might also have been a flashback, even though it was quite different from mushroom experiences, and I only ever hat one flashback, that was very different.
I mean, I have like eight more of these to sample. But I'm not sure I'll want to stomach that :roll: .

But I might play around with them, making some tea. Then at least, I have some experience when I get a better specimen. I'm not in a rush... still, would have been nice...

 

[Grey Fox]

Oh I see. I misunderstood, thinking that it was the same plant all 3 times.

You know awhile back the word going around was that Peruvianus is the most potent tricho. Everyone wanted Peruvian Torch, thinking that it was the best. But as more reports were made and people started analyzing plant material it became clear that Peruvianus is quite variable and even the active ones tend not to be very strong. Bridgesii is really recognized as the gold standard now. There are also very nice pachanois and scopulicolas and macrogonuses. There are nice Peruvianuses out there, but you have to hunt down the correct type. Bridgesii is the most reliable if you really want to ensure a strong trip.

Best luck with your cacti adventures. Please let us know how it works out for you.

 

[doubledog]

this is interesting, especially the way how you consumed it, to eat cactus smoothie is not something I would do.

I am in a similar situation, have some cacti in my collection and know that some are active, but do not know how potent is each specimen - I did water/ alcohol resin from mix of them. Definitely not a good idea to establish individual potency.

 

[brewster]

Thanks Grey Fox, yeah, I got these right in the Peruvianus hype. I have some Bridgesii here... about an inch tall at this point.

I did get some effect after all, but it is so subtle that it can hardly be called a threshold effect. It's an interesting highlighting of colors and emotions, definitely pleasant and interesting. Reminds me of Artemisia Absinthium. Not a trip though .

Yes, doubledog, this was an intense experience to consume this much. I had no discomfort at all once it was down, it was just very tough getting to that point :shock: . What really helped is eating fresh ginger from time to time. But I won't do it this way again. Its Irishlion time next time.

How were the results from your resin? You say some are active, so you got a moderate result?

 

[doubledog]

My resin is relatively strong and concentrated, it took lot of my time and effort to make it. I had medium level entheogenic and empathogenic experience from just 1,2g of it, which I really enjoyed.

It was made from 200-300g of mix of 4 different fresh cacti (including bridgesii), and considering your experience, it seems that my collection is quite strong.

On the other hand, I was not aware that some Tricho cacti could be totally inactive in dose of 800g. I also thought that the inactive cactus mass would cause a stomach discomfort even without presence of alkaloids.

Hopefully, some of your cacti are active. cactus is very good ally

 

[0_o]

Interesting results.

There are a few cuzconoids that are active, the tarma material is reportedly active fir example, and Trichocereus schoenii is also active and can look rather like a cuzconoid as well.
However I've yet to learn of any particularly potent cuzconoids although some are rich in alkaloids they don't appear to have much if any mescaline.

Eating the cactus is the most efficient method of ingestion, but perhaps the most difficult.
Do note that plants have at times been found to range from inactive to active over time. And oddly it is reported that some people have had effects when others have not including when using the exact same Brew.

An ideal plant will be highly active at around 200g, most active peruvianoids are at about 400g.

 

[brewster]

@Grey Fox: Yes, I'll be looking out for some bridgesii to build (ok, bad one). They also remove a lot of the confusion regarding taxonomy, since they seem relatively unique in their appearance.

@: Yes, this all is quite confusing. Back when we did our travelling in a group, there was one guy who would barely get effects from doses that sent all of us tripping hard. And there was me, who got twice as high on the same amount
Also, I read that potency can vary over the year.

@doubledog: Sounds interesting. So you used 300g of fresh cactus only? Sounds like you got some decent plants on your hand. I wasn't completely surprised, the Cuzcos are said to be very weak to inactive to a large extent. So:

I was a bit quick in my judgement. So here's part 2 of the report:

Basically, I did get a mild experience after all. It came up very late, and was partly obscured by the fact that, after 4 hours, I thought nothing was going to happen and started to get some work done. Absorbed in this, I didn't notice the change until much later, when I sat down for my evening meditation.

It was very similar to the last experience I had. There were no visual distortions per se, but a change in perception that is difficult to describe. I'd say that I was seeing the same things, but like through someone else's eyes. Everything had a new and unique quality to it, I knew the objects, but was intrigued by everything. I remember last time, I thought, this is like seeing things in 3D for the first time. Things were incredibly "real" and present and tangible, yet had an ethereal quality.

Also, all emotional sensations were quite strongly highlighted. I saw remote memories that had very much faded with an intensity like rarely ever before. Also, some unpleasant things in my life came to a presence that was really painful and impossible to ignore. So I sat down with them and experienced them in all their intensity. This took a while, and was tough, but allowed me to tackle things directly hat had been covered for a long time. First, these troubles and worries had a terrifying, choking quality to them, but after a while, things cleared up and there was a beautiful sense of relief - like a puzzle that had been solved and an obstacle had been removed.

I slept very well after this, and now I do feel invigorated, with a breeze of fresh energy, and quite a bit of old stuff that has been cleared. I'm grateful for the experience, it wasn't the intense trip I was hoping for, but a very gratifying and helpful experience after all. I feel like I got a lot out of this, after all.

Of course, one might say, that this could be placebo from the expectation, and, honestly, it is impossible to say for certain. But I think it was too direct a shift of perception for the placebo explanation to be likely. Also, I wasn't experiencing anything anymore at this point, and this hit me quite surprisingly.
Also, my experiences on Shrooms and LSD (and intense meditation) have been very different in feeling than this. It was only with the Cuzcos that I have felt this particular state of mind.

Especially this sensation of "seeing through someone else's eyes" is something that I never knew before - really fascinating.

 

[Grey Fox]

Thanks for the follow up Brewster. Your experience is consistent with what my plant with the same phenotype did to me. It was several years ago. I ate a cutting that was about 10 inches long and pretty thick. I felt some heaviness and sleepiness on the come up but didnt get nausea. No visual effects at all. But everything in nature felt more spiritual and my connection to the landscape and plants of the desert felt very strong that day. Physically and emotionally I felt great. It was a spiritually uplifting time, but I cant say that it made me feel high or like I was tripping. But still, even though it was weak as a psychedelic experience, I remember that day with fondness and I'm glad that I did it.

I imagine that in the native range of these cuzco-oid cacti that there are huge old grandfather plants that probably get pretty psychedelic in their effects and that locals there know how to get more than just these threshold kind of effects that growers of younger plants experience.

 

[doubledog]

When I tried cactus for the first time in very small amount, I had very similar experience than you described. Basically non visual, mainly introspective empathogen effect with emotional cleansing.
like small dose of "organic" 2C-B or 2C-C.

I think that your way of consumption not allowed you to feel stronger effects, as whole plant mass slowed down the absorption of actives. However, even crude water only extraction is maybe not worth the effort, considering the strenght of your cactus.

 

[brewster]

It's quite interesting that the experiences are so consistent.

Yes, Grey Fox, I guess, when you have gigantic Cuzcos growing like trees in nature, you can easily a) get more potent specimen and b) be more selective and use only the green skin. Then you should be able to make some potent tea after all.

Doubledog: I hadn't thought about the fact that the big amount of plant mass might hinder absorption before. Did it to get every last bit of goodies. Would probably be no problem if I had another 10kgs - then I'd cut all that down and make some tea Even though - as neutral as the raw cactus tasted, the relatively tiny amount that I boiled unleashed a pretty strong aroma. Really surprising - completely different than the raw flesh. So, cooking down several kilos of this might yield something comparatively nasty. I suppose the only way would be to do an extraction.

I mean, it was a good and rewarding experience. But I won't be able to do that kind of thing often :roll: . I guess the best thing would be to give away a few of the Cuzcos and replace them with some Bridges, since I don't have unlimited space for cacti.

But I'll report back on this issue at least one more time. I have one more of them that has been cut. Its 1200g of flesh + a top cutting (+ the base of 12 inches that I left). I wanted to give away the top cutting, because it is really very pretty - I'm having a hard time imagining cutting this up. But if I add it, I'd have 1600g. In about a month, I'll use the 1.2kg at least and make some tea, Irishlion style. It'll be good practice for when I have a more active Echinopsis on my hands :?.

What's funny is that they're so different now. When they were seedlings, they looked identical. Now their color, shape and number of spines, all is different. The other one is much bluer, with longer and fewer spines. So - who knows 8)

An ideal plant will be highly active at around 200g, most active peruvianoids are at about 400g.

Man - 200g fresh, you mean? That sounds like nothing at all after the kilo I had recently

Actually, I do have seedlings from some Pachanoi and Bridgesii. But they're only about an inch tall now (2y old). So they'll take a couple of years before they can be snacked.

 

[pete666]

Mate, you are a hero to eat such amount and to risk you won't get any effects. Even more, you grow cacti for years to finally find out they are a trash. Admirable. I am extracting pure mescaline and I am not able to eat even this amount (300-600mg) and I have to send it by rectal ROA to diminish nausea. Seeing you eating this brew makes me crazy

Check my thread for my strategy how to find potent cacti. Maybe I might send you some potent grafts once I get them to send you on the right pathway

 

[brewster]

Thanks for the appreciation. When I first saw the amount of smoothie I had in front of me, I didn't think it was possible to eat it all. But then I started, and it worked lol.

Funny thing is, apart from being grossed out by the amount of pure slime which made me gag several times, there was absolutely no nausea or discomfort. But then, not much mesc either8) .

Thanks for the hint. I'll check this out and probably will be looking for some bridges. But I like the cacti anyways, they're pretty and my friends. I have a number of American Agave, too, and they're definitely not active. Still, I'd like to get my hands on some potent specimen now.

I'll check out your thread, thanks for the heads-up:grin:

 

[brewster]

Allright. So, now I'm thinking about phase 2. Please tell me what you think about it.

Since the last experience was, all in all, worthwhile, I'm thinking about trying this again. So, I got some more cuzco, yes, indeed. It is not from the same plant, but they were all grown from the same bunch of seeds. So, it is almost certain they're from the same charge, but obviously, they're not clones.

Since the effects were very mild last time, I thought about going higher. Of course, there is uncertainty involved, because it isn't the same plant. But, the risk should be negligible, right? Last time, I had 800g, with very subtle effects, which still yielded an interesting, introspective, healing journey.
Now, I thought about going 2400g of Cuzco. I won#t be able to eat this much, that's for sure :shock: . So I wanted to do store them in the dark for 1-3 months, and then apply a split technique: cut out the dark-green flesh, freeze-that, blend, eat raw. Make tea with everything else, irishlion style.

What's your opinion? Am I risking my sanity? 2.4 kg of Bridgesii would likely transport me right into the asylum, lol. But this is Cuzco. The chance that this is all of a sudden a very powerful plant should be really small to negligible, right?

3x of what I had last time definitely still will be a very moderate experience.

 

[0_o]

Cuzco isn't considered active.
Even in Peru.

 

[brewster]

This is what one guy wrote, who seems to know his stuff:

The more skinny green cuzcoensis type plants are generally considered to be at best weak, to being completely inactive. No doubt some of them are active, there are reports of the local population around Cuzco, Peru using Trichocereus cuzcoensis shamanicly, but they have certainly not proven to be reliably potent at least in western horticulture. Again Karol Knize seems to be largely responsible for this, selling thousands upon thousands of seeds as being what is known as Trichocereus peruvianus “KK 242”. “KK 242” represents the collection site as being Matucana, Peru despite the vast majority of the plants grown from that seed turning out to be far more akin to Trichocereus cuzcoensis. It could be a simple mislabel, open pollinated hybrid seed being sold as what the mother was or just plain dishonesty. Some plants bearing the name “KK 242” on the other hand do actually appear to be what they are supposed to be. No doubt, only adding to the confusion.

Trichocereus Potency: A basic guide for getting the most out of San Pedro

There is a lot of myth and conjecture as to the varying potency levels of Trichocereus cacti and the reasons for it. Often anecdotal evidence does not match the published literature and just as often the published studies are taken as gospel for entire varieties of the Trichocereus species...

trichoseriousethnobotany.blogspot.com

I do consider it an experiment. Question is, what do you mean when you say 'active'?
My impression is that I have had effects from these cacti - there was a certain change of feeling, of emotions, even of visual perception. Mostly, it was an introspective experience that brought up quite a bit of old material. I do consider it a quite effectively healing experience. I also believe that the traditional healing application of Pedro at times involved dosages and preparations that didn't send people on a classical trip.
Which is what the Cuzcos will not give - they might not be considered "trippy" per se. So, if you mean that by active. I agree. If you mean, they don't do anything at all, I'm not sure. I realize this sounds like placebo, but I'm not convinced that this is the case.

Furthermore, in other corners of the internet, people are very convinced of storing the cuttings in a dark place for a few months; I haven't seen much on this on the Nexus though. Obviously, the problem is that there is almost only anecdotal evidence and only tiny amounts of real science.

I just wanted to make sure I don't take an irresponsible risk, so I'm presenting this to you guys first...