Salvia - Playing with Fire

[RhythmSpring]

I had a somewhat scary experience with Salvia today, and I didn't even take it!

For the first time in a long time, I introduced a friend to Salvia. I had 13x on me, a lot of it. I'd had it for like, 5 years, and now I know why. Too strong for me, and I think perhaps too strong for the guy I showed it to.

He's a guy I look up to a lot, and though he doesn't think too highly of his own mental stability, from my perspective he has his shit together. He's just very energetic. Anyway, I gave him the basic low-down, and he took his hit.

Within seconds he slouched down, way down, as if defeated. He normally is a guy who stands very erect, not proud, but energetically tall. Anyway, now he was slinking low, and sighing huge breaths, like something immensely disappointing was happening.

The feeling increased until he started to recoil in his chair, look around, and say, "I'm scared." He said this a couple times. "I'm here," I said, and I held his hand. "Where are you?" he said. "I'm right here." "This is terrifying. Oh god, why did you tell me about this? What have I done? Why did you make me do this?"

Though I was there to guide him along, I was really worried that the Salvia was messing with his mental wellbeing. Did I screw up his perception? Would the experience give him depersonalization? derealization? existential depression? PTSD?

He got up and talked about warping, never-ending folding of papers, you know, the typical Salvia "imagery" (more like sense-of-self-fuckery). He said, "Did I take a drug?"

I was so relieved when he asked the question. Why didn't I think to tell him this before? "Yes, you took a really perception-altering drug." "Oh."

It was quite a ride for him. He came back down (as everyone does), and was quite disoriented. In many ways, this was a textbook Salvia trip. He says he's fine now, no longer scared. But he says he is now aware of other realities in a way that seems a bit unsettling to him.

I'm writing this post because a) I wanted to say that this was very scary for me--I could have been partially responsible for sending someone into existential depression, which I think is the most common risk with Salvia divinorum. And b) because I've made some observations based on watching him go through his trip.

There are two distinct ways of using Salvia: A) To use a high extract and totally and completely mess with your sense of reality, and B) to use a small amount and use it for divination purposes.

A) I believe is
more dangerous
more of a novelty experience
harder to integrate or ascribe meaning to

B) I believe is
less dangerous
less of a novelty experience; more of an intentional, two-way street-relationship with the plant
easier to find meaning that pertains to the users life.

When the trip was well over, he compartmentalized the experience as sort of a test for the spiritual warrior on his journey. I have so many conflicting feelings about this.
The main overriding feeling is relief that he was able to conceptually separate himself from such a scary, spiritually dangerous experience.
At the same time, because it was such a strong experience, he wasn't able to really experience all the benefits (like listening to a guiding intelligence, letting it cleanse you, etc.) that Salvia has to offer.
Third feeling: I am inspired. Inspired by his ability to retain his sense of humanness amidst something so crazy, so identity-messing-with. We are more than puppets, we are more than spirits, we are more than bodies, we are more than minds--we are humans: an amazing combination of all these things that creates this completely unique entity that is us. You can't get permanently sucked into any dark realm that a psychedelic opens up because YOU ARE HUMAN. Today, I am proud of my humanness.

Salvia is something else. It is completely absurd to me that this plant is grouped together with other drugs. Just look at whatever website that sells Salvia. Oh, look at their list of products: Kratom, herbal ecstasy, Salvia, benzo fury... what?! That's like making a shopping list that goes like:

Grapes
Pork
The way photons are being studied in Switzerland
Apples

No. It's not that Salvia is a "weird" drug. It's that the majority of us are mistaken in using the word "drug" to describe it. Not that it isn't mind-altering. It's just misleading to put it in the same category as kratom or, hell, DMT.

Thanks for listening. I'm gonna keep an eye on my friend for a few days.

RS

 

[Jees]

Thanks RS for this.

I've yet to come to know Salvia. The small try outs I had were nothing special, chewing leaves, smoking leaves, I'm unimpressed so far while everybody is picturing so different. In the end it will be me of course who approach her wrongly or naive, and I hope to change that.

 

[Chan]

Sorry to hear about that, but your assertion that

existential depression, which I think is the most common risk with Salvia divinorum.

is completely unsupported by any evidence known to me.

The kappa-opioid pathway can trigger transient feelings of existential dread when activated by Salvia, or other agents, particularly in the inexperienced. Pre-dosing with harmalas can help a lot, without intensifying the experience.

You're correct in that there are two ways to use salvia though:

1. Non-concentrated forms, in silent darkness.

2. Any other way.

In my experience, only 1. is worth pursuing.

The extracts disrespect the plant, and the user. The most potent naturally-occurring hallucinogen known to science does not need to be concentrated in any way, and nobody should be surprised to get burned if they disagree with that statement.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Sorry to hear about that, but your assertion that

existential depression, which I think is the most common risk with Salvia divinorum.

is completely unsupported by any evidence known to me.

This was just an observation by me, from personal experience and from reading reports online. Sorry that I didn't provide scientific evidence; it wasn't that kind of assertion.

Pre-dosing with harmalas can help a lot, without intensifying the experience.

You're correct in that there are two ways to use salvia though:

1. Non-concentrated forms, in silent darkness.

2. Any other way.

In my experience, only 1. is worth pursuing.

The extracts disrespect the plant, and the user. The most potent naturally-occurring hallucinogen known to science does not need to be concentrated in any way, and nobody should be surprised to get burned if they disagree with that statement.

Couldn't agree more. I think before this experience, I 99% agreed. Now, I'll go back to being just an advocate for buccal / non-extracted Salvia.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Update:

Today he's doing fine. I asked him if he was "existentially okay" with the experience, and he said yeah, he's really grateful for the experience.

:thumb_up:

 

[Chan]

Update:

Today he's doing fine. I asked him if he was "existentially okay" with the experience, and he said yeah, he's really grateful for the experience.

:thumb_up:

Happy to hear that! IME She always delivers something helpful, eventually...

 

[T.Harper]

Sorry to hear about that, but your assertion that

existential depression, which I think is the most common risk with Salvia divinorum.

is completely unsupported by any evidence known to me.

The kappa-opioid pathway can trigger transient feelings of existential dread when activated by Salvia, or other agents, particularly in the inexperienced.

These states that are not only transient, there can be negative effects that do resemble some sort of PTSD or Existential depression or a fracturing of spirit that last much much longer then the "drug effect".

The difficulty of working with vaporized Salvia (and ((most)) short acting psychedelics) is that the arc of: rapid onset - instant peak - short duration - fast decay. This can open doors and allow what ever is behind it be passed through to the consciousness. As we all know, once something is seen, one can never unsee that something, and when your dealing with seeing experiential events that encode on all levels of reality. look the f out, this is not something that can be ignored.

In my research on Salvia, ive come to the conclusion that a strong smoked experience, in where the awareness undertakes an existential dismemberment, will take around 6 to 8 months to process and re-organize the event.

There are two distinct ways of using Salvia

You're correct in that there are two ways to use salvia though

A 3rd path exists for Salvia that combines the these two poles of her nature....

 

[gibran2]

I had a similar experience with a friend some years ago. I introduced him to salvia (20X extract). He wanted to work with it on his own (red flag #1) so I very carefully showed him what a normal dose looked like (he didn’t have a scale – red flag #2), explained how to use it safely and responsibly, and then gave him about 1 g.

Several days later, I got a call from my friend. He told me he tried the salvia, and I was excited about hearing the details of his experience, but he told me he got zero effects! I explained reverse-tolerance, advised him to keep his expectations to a minimum, and didn’t hear anything from him for a few days.

Then one afternoon I got a call from him, and he was very agitated and distressed. He told me he tried the salvia again and that his whole world started “rolling up”. He was fighting this, moving around, trying to “escape” the rolling effect. He found the whole experience to be awful.

I went to his house to help him calm down and to make sure he was OK. While there, I asked him to show me how much he smoked, and he poured out what was at least 5X a normal dose.

The experience had no lasting effects, but to this day – about 5 years later – my friend has absolutely no interest in trying salvia again in any form. This to me is the real tragedy, since I feel he would benefit from salvia use.

The extracts disrespect the plant, and the user. The most potent naturally-occurring hallucinogen known to science does not need to be concentrated in any way, and nobody should be surprised to get burned if they disagree with that statement.

I disagree with this. The effects of salvia are dose-dependent, and a smoked/vaporized 1 mg dose of Salvinorin A will produce effects of similar intensity whether that dose is consumed as 400 mg of plain leaf, 20 mg of 20X extract, or 1 mg of pure Salvinorin A.

Buccal administration is a different story – since a much larger amount of Salvinorin A is consumed over a much longer period of time.

The primary reason a responsible user such as myself uses extracts is to reduce the amount of smoke inhaled. 400 mg of plain leaf salvia is quite a lot, and produces quite a bit of smoke. For those non-smokers among us, there is no desire to unnecessarily inhale that much smoke.

The problem with extracts isn’t that they disrespect the plant or the user (I’m not sure how one form of plant material can disrespect another form of plant material and disrespect human beings?) but that it is very easy to take too large a dose.

For the sake of argument, let’s say 3 mg Salvinorin A is an uncomfortably large dose. That’s only 20 mg of 60X, but 1.2 g of plain leaf. It would be very hard to smoke 1.2 g of plain leaf fast enough to get the full effects of the 3 mg of Salvinorin A it contains, but quite easy to quickly inhale the smoke produced by 20 mg of 60X.

Responsible users of salvia extracts understand the relationship between dose and effects, and understand the importance of weighing a dose and at least estimating the amount of Salvinorin A in any given dose.

Based on my personal experience, I can say without a doubt that using salvia extracts is every bit as worthwhile as using it in any other form (although I haven’t tried tincture yet). A smoked experience, whether 1X or 20X or pure Salvinorin A, opens doors to some very unusual and thought-provoking realms.

 

[jamie]

The report in the OP sounds like a low dose. At a full breakthrough dose of salvia there is no question, no fighting etc..at least this is what I have observed and experienced.

I know how this sounds. I am not telling people to take more, but I do feel like many people are assuming they took too much salvia, while in reality they never even got past the front door. The effects of the thresh hold level can actually be more alarming for the psyche than a full dose where you are completely on the other side.

I have never been able to fight or question a full on salvia breakthrough.

 

[zhoro]

The report in the OP sounds like a low dose. At a full breakthrough dose of salvia there is no question, no fighting etc..at least this is what I have observed and experienced.

I know how this sounds. I am not telling people to take more, but I do feel like many people are assuming they took too much salvia, while in reality they never even got past the front door. The effects of the thresh hold level can actually be more alarming for the psyche than a full dose where you are completely on the other side.

I have never been able to fight or question a full on salvia breakthrough.

I tend to agree with this. My most uncomfortable experience was with a relatively low dose smoked extract, whereby for part of the trip's duration I became a shrub hedge, the immobility of which (and the absence of obvious respiratory apparatus) was stifling. On the other hand, my first ever salvia journey 15yrs ago was with the wise sage's emerald goddess tincture, where I followed the recommended procedure at great cost to the soft tissues of my mouth but was launched into a super-liberating experience of becoming all of Creation which lasted for close to two hours. The two friends who I shared my tincture with could not hold it long enough and did not enjoy the experience. To my knowledge, they have never reached for salvia again, although both are very experienced psychonauts. As far as salvia goes, tincture for me has been the most rewarding method of administration (but the lining of your mouth will take a few days to recover from the burn )

 

[Chan]

Responsible users of salvia extracts understand the relationship between dose and effects, and understand the importance of weighing a dose and at least estimating the amount of Salvinorin A in any given dose.

The catch is in the first two words above.

As per Gibran2's example, it's a lot harder for the irresponsible user to get messed up with 400+ mg of plain leaf. The extracts are potentially much more unpredictable, because who – outside a lab – has a scale that can measure 1mg accurately and consistently?

I use the word 'disrespect' because we don't generally subject many other substances to arbitrary and excessive concentration, we take the mushroom, leaf, or whatever, at face value in it's natural form and work with it. While I'm sure a very few people can use the high strength extracts responsibly, too often they seem to lead only to debilitating experiences and/or unwanted contact with LE, mental health professionals, and media. Which does nobody any good in the long term.

I'm sure I don't need to remind anybody here that other notable plant-concentrates are heroin and cocaine, and look how well they turned out...

Just because we can do something doesn't always mean we ought to do it...spice extraction aside, hehe!

 

[RhythmSpring]

The report in the OP sounds like a low dose. At a full breakthrough dose of salvia there is no question, no fighting etc..at least this is what I have observed and experienced.

I know how this sounds. I am not telling people to take more, but I do feel like many people are assuming they took too much salvia, while in reality they never even got past the front door. The effects of the thresh hold level can actually be more alarming for the psyche than a full dose where you are completely on the other side.

I have never been able to fight or question a full on salvia breakthrough.

Depends on the person. For example, I much prefer the subthreshold effects to the full-on effects. It may not be as intense, but I get more out of it. Intensity of experience does not necessarily correlate with its impact on the person.

And, just because there is a front door doesn't mean it's for opening.

 

[BecometheOther]

I think salvia divinorum requires many exposures to the experience and that familiar place to begin to understand and have better experiences.

I disagree that strong experiences are not worth pursuing, i think that is the only place true divination can happen...

however i definelty second that extracts need not be used, i get plenty far with plain leaf, and ever since growing my own leaf my experiences have imporved alot!

 

[RhythmSpring]

Just because we can do something doesn't always mean we ought to do it.

Yes.

I think salvia divinorum requires...

No.

Yeah, you all know how I feel.

YMMV x1000000

 

[Cognitive Heart]

Salvia breakthrough has a incredibly grounding effect, ime. I am absolutely floored! :lol: Only if and when the dose is sufficient enough, however. Lower doses tend to be clarifying, pleasant and includes a nice afterglow state. Known salvia afterglows can include increases in self-awareness, confidence, creativity, energy etc. I can relate to this. Although, breakthrough experiences tend to leave one in awe for some time..

 

[Metanoia]

That's like making a shopping list that goes like:

Grapes
Pork
The way photons are being studied in Switzerland
Apples

It's just misleading to put it in the same category as kratom or, hell, DMT.

This made me chuckle :lol: :d

You're absolutely right, however. The more experience I have with DMT the more I see how distinctly different it is from Salvia, let alone something like kratom or kava kava or other popular "legal highs".

A 3rd path exists for Salvia that combines the these two poles of her nature....

This path is the one I've taken for almost an entire decade and found it to be immensely rewarding. I rarely go deep with extracts any longer, actually not really finding the need to if not for any other reason than my tolerance is incredibly low and I can breakthrough without extracts But I do completely understand why smoking, extracts in particular, isn't something that many people find very valuable or easy to comprehend. I combine smoking plain leaf and quidding with the rare extract journey once or twice a year. It's an approach that works for me and my purposes (the regular use of plain leaf, smoked and quidded, is for depression and as a meditation aid) Each to their own but I always suggest the use of plain leaf over extracts if you really want to delve deep and approach this plant with the respect it demands.

The problem with extracts isn’t that they disrespect the plant or the user (I’m not sure how one form of plant material can disrespect another form of plant material and disrespect human beings?) but that it is very easy to take too large a dose.

Responsible users of salvia extracts understand the relationship between dose and effects, and understand the importance of weighing a dose and at least estimating the amount of Salvinorin A in any given dose.

Based on my personal experience, I can say without a doubt that using salvia extracts is every bit as worthwhile as using it in any other form (although I haven’t tried tincture yet). A smoked experience, whether 1X or 20X or pure Salvinorin A, opens doors to some very unusual and thought-provoking realms.

I have to agree. The real problem is it's easier to disrespect the experience when you're naive and take three, four, or five times a reasonable dose. Some people simply prefer the experience of buccal over smoking/vaping for the same reasons some people prefer something like Ayahuasca over vaped DMT; different time frame for duration and onset of effects leading to sometimes drastically different experiences. But in my mind each have their merits and purposes.

The report in the OP sounds like a low dose. At a full breakthrough dose of salvia there is no question, no fighting etc..at least this is what I have observed and experienced.

I know how this sounds. I am not telling people to take more, but I do feel like many people are assuming they took too much salvia, while in reality they never even got past the front door. The effects of the thresh hold level can actually be more alarming for the psyche than a full dose where you are completely on the other side.

I have never been able to fight or question a full on salvia breakthrough.

This is absolutely correct IMO as well. It's those mid-high doses that take you to the edge of a breakthrough that tend to initiate the fear response, fight or flight, all those nasty youtube videos of people struggling against the experience. When you take a truly massive dose there is no chance to do anything; you are instantly and totally obliterated.

...spice extraction aside, hehe!

I love how you had to end on this ironic note

Sorry for the length of that, I'm really enjoying this thread! :thumb_up:

As for the OP: I've been down that road many times myself. Sometimes it ended up as your story did; others times not so nice. But I think in each case the people I introduced it to had a remarkable experience that they'll remember for the rest of their lives. I've introduced far less people to DMT, but the same results apply. It may be terrifying, it may be something that can take a while to come to grips with. But in the end you usually look back on the experience as something truly special. For me, that is the essence of the psychedelic experience.

 

[Inner Paths]

Pre-dosing with harmalas can help a lot, without intensifying the experience.

This I highly agree with. I've said it before and I'll say it again, a pre dose of some harmalas (rue extracted in my case) provide a wonderful blanket effect to salvia space without taking away the healing aspects of the goddess, the sharp edges of the experience are smoothed over beautifully and it also deepens the meditative aspects of salvia even more so. The bending and folding of time and space are still ever present but it happens in a more pleasant fashion and there is a much more noticeable euphoria present also, at least IMO.

I rarely venture into her sacred space without at least a bit of harmalas in my mental space. The last time I did I had a bit of a hyper slap/lesson in store for me and I have taken about a year break from her as a consequence of this. Nothing too serious, I just was told not to venture back until I was ready. I'm sure I would've had this lesson regardless of having harmalas beforehand but I'm guessing the lesson would've been a bit less stern if I did.

I still think of her pretty regularly and am slowly feeling her currents and gravity starting to pull me back to her

 

[Pile of cats]

A good friend of mine was interested in trying salvia and I had told him to be very careful with dosages, his friend had obtained some 60X and I told him he'd need a grain but he ended up smoking a bowl, had an awful experience where I felt he was surrounded by entities that were drumming a hypnotic rhythm that was taking him away, He felt as if he'd been there before and that he'd screwed up coming back there and was doomed in some sense because of it. He came back from the experience pretty shaken but relieved and eventually euphoric at having experienced something so out there. but a few weeks later we smoked a joint together and suddenly the experience came back to him and for about 6 months after that he had PTSD like symptoms where things would trigger a flashback and he'd suffer extreme anxiety and in general just felt like he was losing his mind.

He's since then recovered better than ever and sees that the experience was a beneficial one even if it did take 6 months to integrate it. but yeah.. People need to be careful with how they approach it, I too have seen the potential for existential crisis from breakthrough on the substance even when the experience was a good one. start slow, work your way up and always have a sitter present until you're very familiar with it. I wish I'd had someone to tell me what was going on after I'd come back from my breakthrough as I was thoroughly bewildered by my situation.

 

[travsha]

Salvia is one of the most healing plants I have ever worked with.... I think it also has a huge potential to do emotional damage through trauma when not worked with properly. Traditionally the Mazatecs say that smoking is offensive to the spirit of the plant and she will try to frighten you away.... I dont know if it is really offensive tot he plant or not, but after smoking many times and chewing the leaves many times I will never smoke it ever again.

Considering smoking can already be so overly intense and disorienting, it gets even more crazy using concentrated extracts.... I think I even used as high as 120x or maybe even 150x before.... I think the plain leaf the way it grows natural is perfect - these extracts ruin a good thing in my opinion....

Last time I smoked Salvia I blacked out and jumped off of a 3 story balcony barefoot to go running through the street like a crazy person. I dont recommend it at all.

Chewing the leaves on the other hand has shown me some of the deepest yet gentlest healing I have ever experienced. One experience I had Salvia helped me perform a type of "soul retrieval" on myself as a child and another one for my dead mother (saw her as a child and I think was an "ancestral healing" basically). I was guided through memories of my own and of my mother and this process helped so much in healing a lot of grief I had around her suicide.

My wife has amazing experiences chewing Salvia as well... In one experience Salvia helped her experience multiple lives of her ancestors. She is part Scottish and went into the lives of all these women from Scotland to see how the women on that side of her family never spoke up for themselves and were subservient and let so much evil happen because of that.... Crazy part about this is that a few months later her grandparents gave her a book about that side of her family called "Death or Victory: The Maclean Clan." These were real stories about her family and the book had some drawings.... The stories in the book were exactly like the visions she had experienced and the drawings in it were perfect matches for many things she saw. Powerful stuff.

I will always have a deep respect for Salvia. I wont smoke her again though - never taught me anything and often was just scary and confusing.... Chewing the leaves though is pure magic if you take the time to learn the technique. There certainly is a proper technique to make it work well but it is easy to figure out with a little work on your part (took me about 3 tries to really figure it out because I had good advice/tips).

 

[drfaust]

Chewing the leaves on the other hand has shown me some of the deepest yet gentlest healing I have ever experienced. One experience I had Salvia helped me perform a type of "soul retrieval" on myself as a child and another one for my dead mother (saw her as a child and I think was an "ancestral healing" basically). I was guided through memories of my own and of my mother and this process helped so much in healing a lot of grief I had around her suicide.

Thanks so much for sharing the stories. Did you see my posts in the olfactory memory thread on the early mother-child interactions and KOR expression in the mind/brain?

I think it is worth meditating on the models and metaphors that point to KOR expression, holding, the early mother-child love affair, and the "soul retrieval" and healing of those "early relations" that are still here. I'm finding it helpful and healing to make contact with myself at these deeper layers of dreaming/experiencing.

The "pathways" and the mediation between the "limbic brain" and the "higher cortex" are models that point to a living reality, the "you" who can grieve. Not a "you" in an object sense, but in a relational and living sense.

I can speak only in analogy when I try to point to this real of our relations with ourselves and our first loved one, our mother. I can liken it to cold mountain stream dipping. I contact the "pain" and pleasure of cold mountain streams only to emerge refreshed and alive.

I contact the pain and sweetness of loss and grief only to emerge more in tune with life and alive.

The Schore article, which is really worth the effort to read, points to the all important holding of the negative affective states in a kind of loving and accepting embrace that is learned from repeated dippings in the stream of real relations with our real selves and real others as they are.

So, what are your tips for chewing?