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This is an interview with Hamilton Souther, who was trained as an ayahuasquero. If you do some research, you will find that what he is discussing checks out with what is generally reported about shamanism.

At 1 hour, 20 minutes in this interview, he discusses Icaros. Not quite absolute abstraction, as you assert. What you are talking about seems more similar to Martin Ball's ideas, which he (Martin Ball) very explicitly and consciously distinguishes from shamanic practices. That sort of thing is more like Advaita Vedanta.

I don’t want to say you’re wrong about everything you say: I don’t think shamanism is the only methodical approach to these things. I’m trying to promote methodological use generally, of which shamanism is just one particular variety. But, shamans definitely aren’t aiming at ultimate emptiness, they’re not monks. They’re doctors. They use songs, chanting, musical instruments, etc., to achieve certain effects. They’re trying to cure illness generally (or cause it, depending on what they are being paid to do). They’re even more amoral than Western doctors, to be honest. No hippocratic oath for shamans. Whether they decide to hurt or heal really just comes down to the individual shaman’s inclination.

This is very different from what you are describing. I want to be clear: you’re describing real existent practices that can go with psychedelics... they’re just not shamanic. Shamans aren’t monks, in Spanish they’re just “curanderos”, people who heal you, usually of boring normal shit Western doctors heal people of too. It’s not as ambitious as what you’re describing. Shamans can be (and frequently are) stay-at-home Moms or playboy machismo dudes who go have beer and hit on girls at local bars after the ceremony. There have actually been instances of Americans at ayahuasca retreats calling shamans charlatans when they saw them out having a beer, to the shamans’ complete bafflement. They’re doctors, occasionally mercenaries - not monks. It’s a practical medical vocation, not a soteriological one.

[MEDIA=youtube]UEDn8yAOyTU:5211[/MEDIA]

<blockquote data-quote="OneIsEros" data-source="post: 3861128" data-attributes="member: 37513">This is an interview with Hamilton Souther, who was trained as an ayahuasquero. If you do some research, you will find that what he is discussing checks out with what is generally reported about shamanism.At 1 hour, 20 minutes in this interview, he discusses Icaros. Not quite absolute abstraction, as you assert. What you are talking about seems more similar to Martin Ball&#039;s ideas, which he (Martin Ball) very explicitly and consciously distinguishes from shamanic practices. That sort of thing is more like Advaita Vedanta.I don’t want to say you’re wrong about everything you say: I don’t think shamanism is the only methodical approach to these things. I’m trying to promote methodological use generally, of which shamanism is just one particular variety. But, shamans definitely aren’t aiming at ultimate emptiness, they’re not monks. They’re doctors. They use songs, chanting, musical instruments, etc., to achieve certain effects. They’re trying to cure illness generally (or cause it, depending on what they are being paid to do). They’re even more amoral than Western doctors, to be honest. No hippocratic oath for shamans. Whether they decide to hurt or heal really just comes down to the individual shaman’s inclination.This is very different from what you are describing. I want to be clear: you’re describing real existent practices that can go with psychedelics... they’re just not shamanic. Shamans aren’t monks, in Spanish they’re just “curanderos”, people who heal you, usually of boring normal shit Western doctors heal people of too. It’s not as ambitious as what you’re describing. Shamans can be (and frequently are) stay-at-home Moms or playboy machismo dudes who go have beer and hit on girls at local bars after the ceremony. There have actually been instances of Americans at ayahuasca&nbsp; retreats calling shamans charlatans when they saw them out having a beer, to the shamans’ complete bafflement. They’re doctors, occasionally mercenaries - not monks. It’s a practical medical vocation, not a soteriological one.[MEDIA=youtube]UEDn8yAOyTU:5211[/MEDIA]</blockquote>

[QUOTE="OneIsEros, post: 3861128, member: 37513"] This is an interview with Hamilton Souther, who was trained as an ayahuasquero. If you do some research, you will find that what he is discussing checks out with what is generally reported about shamanism. At 1 hour, 20 minutes in this interview, he discusses Icaros. Not quite absolute abstraction, as you assert. What you are talking about seems more similar to Martin Ball's ideas, which he (Martin Ball) very explicitly and consciously distinguishes from shamanic practices. That sort of thing is more like Advaita Vedanta. I don’t want to say you’re wrong about everything you say: I don’t think shamanism is the only methodical approach to these things. I’m trying to promote methodological use generally, of which shamanism is just one particular variety. But, shamans definitely aren’t aiming at ultimate emptiness, they’re not monks. They’re doctors. They use songs, chanting, musical instruments, etc., to achieve certain effects. They’re trying to cure illness generally (or cause it, depending on what they are being paid to do). They’re even more amoral than Western doctors, to be honest. No hippocratic oath for shamans. Whether they decide to hurt or heal really just comes down to the individual shaman’s inclination. This is very different from what you are describing. I want to be clear: you’re describing real existent practices that can go with psychedelics... they’re just not shamanic. Shamans aren’t monks, in Spanish they’re just “curanderos”, people who heal you, usually of boring normal shit Western doctors heal people of too. It’s not as ambitious as what you’re describing. Shamans can be (and frequently are) stay-at-home Moms or playboy machismo dudes who go have beer and hit on girls at local bars after the ceremony. There have actually been instances of Americans at ayahuasca retreats calling shamans charlatans when they saw them out having a beer, to the shamans’ complete bafflement. They’re doctors, occasionally mercenaries - not monks. It’s a practical medical vocation, not a soteriological one. [MEDIA=youtube]UEDn8yAOyTU:5211[/MEDIA] [/QUOTE]