Significance of DMT Crystalline Geometries and Our Experiences?

[Rising Spirit]

Hey Now Gang,

Recently, there has been some controversy in the Advanced Chemistry sub-forum. Understandably, the collective sensibilities of the scientific community were displeased with CaptainFuture's statements about how the specific geometry of DMT crystals has enhanced his experience of vaporizing them. Not just enhanced them, he believes they noticeably amplified the power of the DMT molecule, as it interphased within his own psyche! So, in a nutshell, I personally feel this is worthy of further discussion, just not in such a specified, clinical atmosphere. I sincerely wonder how many other folks, within the Nexus family, have noticed any special significance or greater degree of power/potency from more perfect, external crystalline geometries? This thread is dedicated to the discoveries of my friend and spiritual brother, CaptainFuture

I will kick off this conversation with a quick tale of my only noticeable enhancement felt form the vaporization of a more perfect DMT crystal. I am uncharacteristically going to keep it brief, lucky you, and I welcome all of you to add your own personal stories and subjective impressions. We've all heard the dismissive statements of many of our more logical Nexians but I question how many other members have had something 'magical' result from their perceptions generated by such exceptional crystalline formations.

The fourth time I lifted-off with DMT, I noted that I could see one spectacular DMT crystal emerging out of the crystalline powder of my small batch of DMT. I have been a mineral collector most of my life and a professional jeweler and gemologist for over 25 years. I've be examining crystalline geometries most of my adult life. So, when I saw this 3mm x 4mm tabular, doubly terminated DMT crystal, I took out my 10x gem loop and looked carefully at it's geometric perfection. I had to have an even closer look, so I took out my 100x microscope, thus I could make out the hidden details, to quite a remarkable extent. Other than the magnificence of the geometric faceting, the internal structure was of superior clarity. A true gem.

Since I was a newbie to the realm of DMT, I had no idea that the size and perfection of the crystal could have any variance in potency to the smaller crystals in the powdered yellow-white matter. Well, the truth is, I had the most powerful breakthrough experience I have ever had with DMT imbibement. After the peak, I began to contemplate if there was actually some kind of vibratory acceleration or enhancement, due to the geometry of the lovely crystal? I still ponder this possibility. I believe it was a marked and exponentially more potent spiritual differentiation, even though the 4 trips I had came from the very same batch of material.

Anyone else have any input to add or experiences to share? As this is ideally, not a debate about whether or not there is any spiritual transmission from these geometries, please refrain from cynicism, critical remarks or contradictory replies to those fearless enough to voice their own tales. OK? this is the Philosophy/Spirituality sub-forum, so our rationale should be tempered by our impartiality, should we feel this topic is nonsense. Thanks in advance for your kindness.

 

[endlessness]

In one way, I am under the opinion that everything around us influences us. I believe in for example organizing a room before launching/tripping, having things with certain harmonious patterns (in my aesthetic subjective view) or symmetries. Also think about monks meditating on mandalas, how the very complex forms help one visualize something inside of himself. Maybe different forms/patterns are more conducive for different specific experiences (for example often a shaman's singing and voice patterns are supposed to correlate with specific visions/colors in the participants). Maybe we could think of people themselves as a certain mandala, which is composed of these complex dynamic processes but there is a unique center that unites it all.

So maybe same is for crystals ? I mean, also if you took the whole trouble of working to create a crystal, and it has a very beautiful shape, I guess that can somehow stick in your mind and influence somehow. But does it influence all people equally? Back to the people=mandala/colors idea, maybe depending on the color you are, whatever color/shape/impression is added on top that you receive through your senses will act differently, so there wouldnt necessarily be a constancy between different people?

I remember someone discussing about how the size/color of the pill in a medicine had different placebo-related effects? Could try digging that up, I think it was a published investigation about it.

I hope you dont take my words as cynic, im just trying to express a healthy skepticism/down-to-earthness here, but I have to bring in also to the spirituality forum the suggestion: Why not also test for placebo? Though of course for that to happen, the person wouldnt be seeing the crystals as it is put in the smoking aparatus and vapped, so maybe that would prevent the 'benefit' from happening if one needs to see it to have the image imprinted in his mind, mandala-style. But still it would at least prove/disprove if there is some kind of "hidden" energy that is beyond our senses that is stuck with the crystals.

Maybe another test appart from placebo is actually an open test where people do see the crystals they vap, and then try to create a certain pattern. Like lets say create a few flower-shaped crystals, a few flat-shaped crys, a few spiky crystals, or whatever else one can make with dmt. Then have a few people smoke these specific shapes and give a questionnaire to see if their descriptions are consistent amongst different people?

Regardless of this all, I would say it is of great benefit in an experiential way to grow crystals, and I think it can make one create a deeper appreciation for these substances, by noticing the amazing forms, like alchemy that while you transform the substances you also transform yourself.. All of this can be beneficial in different levels to our experience so Im all for people growing crystals at least once and see it for themselves

(again, hope this post isnt interpreted negatively or taken as an attack to the discussion )

 

[gibran2]

I’m going to remain neutral regarding the effect of crystalline structure on subjective effects, but I do feel it’s important to bring up some of my personal observations.

There are so many variables involved in the DMT experience – how can anyone claim that a particular variable is responsible for a change in effects? I try very hard to keep variance to a minimum when partaking of DMT – same setting, to the extent possible the same mindset, same pre-launch ritual, same dose carefully weighed, same smoking device, same vaporizing technique.

I don’t do this without reason – I really don’t like sub-breakthrough “misfires” and I’m not too fond of unexpectedly intense experiences either. Yet try as I may to keep things constant, every experience is unique. Unique in terms of content, intensity, duration, physical effects, emotional effects, visual clarity, presence/absence of auditory hallucinations, entity presence/absence, nature and extent of participation, mental effects, degree of ego loss or ego amplification, nature and extent of after-effects, etc. etc.

Given the variability of results inherent in a DMT experience, how is it possible to make any claims at all regarding cause and effect? I think the only cause-effect relationship I feel fairly confident about claiming is that of dose size and intensity of experience, and even that relationship doesn’t always hold – I’ve had almost no effects at all after vaporizing 35mg, and I had the strongest breakthrough of my life after vaporizing 28mg.

So again, how is it possible to claim with any confidence that any particular variable affects the experience in a predictable, reliable way?

 

[Rising Spirit]

Also think about monks meditating on mandalas, how the very complex forms help one visualize something inside of himself. Maybe different forms/patterns are more conducive for different specific experiences (for example often a shaman's singing and voice patterns are supposed to correlate with specific visions/colors in the participants). Maybe we could think of people themselves as a certain mandala, which is composed of these complex dynamic processes but there is a unique center that unites it all.

Nice. I think that is as creative a way of putting it, as I have ever heard. Your thoughts echo a few of the ideas I have had since this whole DMT crystallographic geometry issue rose into our circle of discussions. Perhaps any differentiation is only perceptibly noticed by certain folks, with specific types of minds? Like with the Tibetan monks meditating upon the geometry of the mandalas. They internalize the vision of the geometry and so, experience higher frequencies of thought forms, than before the ritual began. This would have little effect upon an executive banker, corporate lawyer or stock broker... but it has a profound impact upon the mind and subjective experience of the monk. In this light, the concept of placebo effect is quite mute, for the monk and the business person have radically different degrees of receptivity to the spiritual impact of the Sacred Geometry encoded in the mandala.

Your idea regarding the effect of our foreknowledge, could be partially responsible in my own case. I don't know to any degree of certainty. Truthfully. That's exactly why I raise these pertinent questions and seek answers. Knowing for a certainty that there is a specific crystal geometry involved in the vaporization, remains speculative in our collective assessment. But if there were something beyond speculation to these geometries, as with the above mentioned Tibetan monks, it would be largely subjective. It may prove to be that only certain individuals would notice anything at all? Psychedelic monks, in a manner of speaking, would then be receptive to any noticeable differentiation in the high? The the symmetry of molecular, interior and exterior geometry, coupled with a more profound experience, would seem to have some reasonable merit to it's exploration.

Your notion of a placebo effect is not unreasonable either. Only in a series of well orchestrated blind tests, might we even scratch the surface. When we see the crystallographic geometry beforehand, it may have an impact on our subjectivity. But wouldn't this also support the idea the the geometry enhances the high? The mental image of the geometry may change the thought waves of the observer, as with the mandalas? Specific combinations of shapes, designed to draw ones focus inwards, can influence our thought patterning. Whether a mandala or a hallucinated fractal design, it grabs our attention and alters our mind.

Certainly the idea of 'perfection' can steer our expectations. Agreed. Like tasting the prettiest and most succulent appearing fruit from a bowl of peaches? You expect the most symmetrical and vibrant fruit to taste the sweetest. Right? Hypothetically, the molecular structure of a pit, an engorged, succulently ripened fruit and a mass of rotting fruit matter, all have the identical molecular basis but upon their consumption... they have radically different effects upon the being who consumes them.

Is it not sequentially logical that it would be so with DMT crystals? I know, I know, plant matter is hardly a mirrored parallel to extracted crystalline chemicals like Spice but you can see where I'm going with this. Expectation facilitates result. On the other hand, the birth of a new science is often compared to speculation and flights of fancy.

So it's obvious that if a perfectly developed geometrical DMT crystal were to have any enhanced effect, it would need a receptive partner? And if this is so, it could have a spiritual message for only those who are able to comprehend it's geometric magnification. This leads to speculation of the more esoteric aspects and the transmission of an insight into the Divine. Whether or not, that is what is actually occurring here, is still inconclusive, as thus far it is a subjective realization amongst a minority. I believe this is why the Captain shared his findings with us. He wants consensus not challenges or debate. He is a fine person and has discovered something I believe, has a significance that our normal reasoning process is incapable of comprehending. Just a feeling I have...

I can only speak for myself. Being a gemologist, I am acutely aware of the collective consensus that the more perfect the crystalline interior development, as with diamonds, the greater their capacity to refract light rays, break ultraviolet rays into rainbow of refraction and transduce electricity with a constant of measure. The perfection within the internal geometry is absolutely imperative to the crystal's capacity to excel in it's characteristics. Every gemologist knows the fundamental fact that each molecule within every mineral crystal is a perfectly symmetrical structure, yet, without the conducive growth atmosphere, the external crystal can be near useless.

I find it ironic that brilliant logicians like burnt only see the interior molecular geometry as pertinent in the metabolizing of the DMT molecules, resulting in the high. For crystals are not just perfectly organized molecules on the microscopic level, in juxtaposition to complete externally finalized crystals. There are millions of duplications of said molecular structures, which expand the volume of the crystal as it increases in dimension. At every stage of their exponential expansion, they can vary from symmetry or more often, as asymmetrical interior geometric development.

In a nutshell, the closer the geometry of the external form of the crystalline geometry is to the molecular core interior, the more evident it is to gemologists and crystallographers, that at every stage of it's growth, rare gems maintains such a identical, symmetrically exponential geometry. So, why is it that all of the levels of growth that occur in the formation of the final exterior crystalline geometry, are not considered as significant, in terms of DMT crystals?

When they are in complete harmony with the interior blueprint of their molecular geometry, they are a continuum of symmetry and balance. The initial molecular bonding and the finished crystal development, are but two polarities within the beginning and maturity of any mineral. As is the case with crystallized gemstones, a harmonious structure of nearly identical molecular duplication in growth, creates more ideal interior geometries, which are mirrored in the exterior shape. This makes them 'better' and 'more desirable' for a humanoid to place a ring setting. If this is so much the case with material gemstones, given the symmetry of this grand universe of ours, why would it be any less so or different for DMT crystalline geometry?

So, I would have to agree with your assessment, knowing that a crystal appears to be superior lays a psychological setting which is conducive for a greater degree of identification with quality and a higher degree of appreciation. I really admire your insistence that a blind test be done. I would only hope that I would be invited to be a member of the judging panel (hehehe)? :lol:

I hope you dont take my words as cynic, im just trying to express a healthy skepticism/down-to-earthness here, but I have to bring in also to the spirituality forum the suggestion: Why not also test for placebo?

You're right, this should certainly be conducted by the greater community. We routinely post our queries about the differentiation between red jungle spice, yellow and pure white DMT crystalline matter. We ponder their effects, potency and characteristics. This is the natural result of a curious organism, humankind. How is this such a radical departure? Frankly, it is not. It is unproven, theoretical and subjective, certainly but what paramount discoveries in the world of human understanding were not seen is such a way, prior to their acceptance? I just ask why not look into this potentiality?

(again, hope this post isnt interpreted negatively or taken as an attack to the discussion )

Don't be ridiculous! You are an eloquent spirit, who for the sake of the greater collective order, is bound by a code of honor to remain both, neutral and open-minded. Hell, someones got to keep one foot on land and one foot on the boat, otherwise we might get all carried away and start to praise the Lord, break into Sanskrit chanting or something even more extreme. So, let's keep this discussion to direct preceptory input, shall we? I am still eager to hear of any other experiences, which might suggest any enhanced 'knowledge' from the more flawless of crystal geometries.

BTW, we're totally cool endlessness. Keep us on our toes, it's a good thing, really.

 

[LandOfOz]

poppycock.

 

[Rising Spirit]

There are so many variables involved in the DMT experience – how can anyone claim that a particular variable is responsible for a change in effects? I try very hard to keep variance to a minimum when partaking of DMT – same setting, to the extent possible the same mindset, same pre-launch ritual, same dose carefully weighed, same smoking device, same vaporizing technique.

Well said, I appreciate the kind of philosophical objectivity you spontaneously express with every breath of your voice. I respectfully defer to your expertise, as you've obviously been keeping notes and weighing the data with the eye of an eagle. So, we can find common ground in the understanding that to a very large degree, mystery constantly pervades the voyage of the psychonaut. In all honesty, what we don't know, is so very much more than what we do know (with any degree of absolute certainty).

While it behooves any of us to declare emphatically, that we have complete certainty within our ideologies, for the likelihood that we are truly accurate or correct about our own interpretation of reality, is highly marginal. Like the infamous Gibran2 colored marbles in a box equation? BTW, that is a very clever conceptual metaphor and a flawless mathematical equation. Kudos brother! So yes, I do agree with much of what you say. We habitually project predigested ideas, from our accumulated thought structures. Our enforcement and assessment of what is transpiring before our subjectivity... is limited by how much we are capable of perceiving.

IMO, we as a species, dwell in our thinking-mechanism to an imbalanced degree. I propose that we might gain more equilibrium, were we to investigate our own intuition with equal zeal. We are locked in our loping mental dialog most of our waking moments. Is this not what we earth monkeys do? Yes we all do, on several levels, each one of us. The ego is a gravitational fulcrum, by which we all craft our blueprint of our own isolated universes, ever so carefully. Essentially, we all stand on equal ground, mere momentary flashes of light energy upon the fabric of an infinitude of ceaseless change.

Given the variability of results inherent in a DMT experience, how is it possible to make any claims at all regarding cause and effect? I think the only cause-effect relationship I feel fairly confident about claiming is that of dose size and intensity of experience, and even that relationship doesn’t always hold – I’ve had almost no effects at all after vaporizing 35mg, and I had the strongest breakthrough of my life after vaporizing 28mg.

So again, how is it possible to claim with any confidence that any particular variable affects the experience in a predictable, reliable way?

Again, we are willing to speculate for the sake of unearthing some new possibilities, some unknown and undiscovered potentialities. We can stand on the edge of eternity for untold lifetimes of deep pondering and reflection about the geometries of DMT crystalline structures and yield no certainty. I believe that this is why CaptainFuture brought his findings to our community. To encourage exploration and quantification of this potentiality in effect. It still seems to be a worthy pursuit and remains poised upon an uncharted type of science. Perhaps there may actually be an actual bridge between the world of biophysics and crystalline geometry? It may well be part of the transmission of the "enlightenment" gifted by the Spirit Molecule. I want to know more. :idea:

 

[Rising Spirit]

poppycock.

Thank you for you input. Err... I think? The thing is, since this discussion exists within the Philosophy/Spirituality sub-forum, it behooves any of us to "poppycock" another's spin on anything. This kind of closed-minded sentiment and attitude, is why I shifted this conversation from the Advanced Chemistry sub-forum. You might be better to return to the other thread and chime in with the dominant crowd of nay-saying skeptics? If all you've got to contribute to this conversation is negation, please elucidate further. Can there truly be any poppycocks in this enigmatic, inquisitive, objective region of the Nexus? One man's poppycock may well be another man's bird of paradise.

Still, you have every right to speak your mind. While I might emphasise that the "rational police" have no domination in this realm and arguably, neither should there be any spiritual police demanding illogical mind-sets from the participants of this discussion. Just be more specific. OK?

Would you mind extrapolating upon your concise proclamation of said, poppy-cocking? Have you, through trial and experimentation, done a repeated series of tests to arrive at such a definitive negative? IMO, it's not enough to simply be dismissive. Many of us would like to understand if you have or have not, undergone a serious study of this nature or... are you merely resting on the laurels of your rationale, mental programming and intellectual convictions?

 

[burnt]

I find it ironic that brilliant logicians like burnt only see the interior molecular geometry as pertinent in the metabolizing of the DMT molecules, resulting in the high. For crystals are not just perfectly organized molecules on the microscopic level, in juxtaposition to complete externally finalized crystals. There are millions of duplications of said molecular structures, which expand the volume of the crystal as it increases in dimension. At every stage of their exponential expansion, they can vary from symmetry or more often, as asymmetrical interior geometric development.

In a nutshell, the closer the geometry of the external form of the crystalline geometry is to the molecular core interior, the more evident it is to gemologists and crystallographers, that at every stage of it's growth, rare gems maintains such a identical, symmetrically exponential geometry. So, why is it that all of the levels of growth that occur in the formation of the final exterior crystalline geometry, are not considered as significant, in terms of DMT crystals?

I don't think my point was understood. I will try and reiterate.

Crystals form can and does effect certain drugs potency or absorption. Different crystal forms of various drugs can lead to different dissolution rates and thus different absorption rates by the gastrointestinal tract. These are real issues in drug design and drug pharmacokinetics. Some crystal forms could even cause molecules to dissolute not into single molecules but into relatively stable 'dimers' which are not connected covalently but held together by intermolecular forces.

With regards to dmt. Certainly we could expect that different crystal forms of the freebase could effect its bio-availability with oral administration. Whether or not these differences are significant has not been determined. It does seem that different salt forms have different potency.

Vaporizing on the other hand is a different story because the drug is being put into the gas phase before its inhaled. Its well known that crystal forms can have different melting points. So the rate at which dmt would enter the gas phase could be different depending on crystal form. Its likely that some dmt degrades when heated depending on the smoking technique. So the amount of time that dmt is in the pipe/smoking device in the gas phase before its inhaled would vary. This all could effect the pharmacokinetic properties of how much and how fast dmt is absorbed in to the lung.

Furthermore as Gibran pointed out dmt experiences can vary and sometimes dosage is not so accurate a measure of how intense the trip will be. Another complicating factor could be the bodies levels of monoamine oxidase enzymes which could vary depending on lots of factors. Its also already known that people with different types of monoamine oxidases require different doses of ayahuasca.

Also dmt seems to cause its effects by interacting with neural receptors in the brain. For different crystal forms to effect dmts binding properties seems unlikely because by the time dmt is in the synaptic cleft its in solution. Unless the crystal form led to relatively stable forms of dmt held together by intermolecular forces even while be heated, going through the lungs, into the blood, across the blood brain barrier and to receptor sites but this is highly highly unlikely. It could be tested whether such dimeric forms of dmt even exist which they probably don't by nuclear magentic resonance spectroscopy (NMR).


So for these reasons I don't see why it makes sense to speculate about hypothetical information being locked in the crystal structure which transmits some kind of effect to the trip. If everything I said turned out to be wrong or one wanted to consider such a possibility a number of issues demand explanation. What kind of information? How does this information cause psychedelic experiences?

 

[gibran2]

Let’s assume that DMT crystal type, through some currently unknown mechanism, affects the DMT experience. How would we determine the effect?

Here’s a list of some of the things that will effect a DMT experience when vaporizing freebase DMT in a GVG. I didn’t want to introduce too many variables, so I assume freebase (as opposed to changa or DMT salts) and a particularly efficient smoking device – the GVG. I also assume that no MAOIs are consumed. With other smoking devices and forms of DMT plus MAOIs, the list of factors would be considerably longer! Even as long as it is, the list is not exhaustive.

Factors Influencing a DMT Experience

· size of dose (how accurate is your scale?)
· substrate used (copper mesh, liquid pad, herbs, ash, screens)
· quantity/thickness of substrate (thick disc, thin disc)
· degree of contact between substrate and sidewalls
· porosity and uniformity of substrate
· distribution of DMT on substrate (evenly distributed, piled in one area)
· physical state of DMT on substrate (solid, liquid)
· presence/absence of DMT residue on substrate from previous uses
· presence/absence of DMT condensate on glass from previous uses

· presence/absence of DMT impurities (oils, plant material, solvent traces, oxide)
· nature of DMT solid state (fine powder, fluffy, granular)
· DMT crystalline structure

· number of inhalations to consume full dose (1, 2, 3 or more?)
· rate of inhalation (slow and gentle, fast)
· breathing immediately prior to inhalation (deep breaths?)
· depth of inhalation (how deeply did you inhale)
· holding time – how long is dose held in lungs?
· rate of exhalation
· total time taken to consume full dose

· type of lighter used (“Bic”-type, butane jet/torch)
· degree of pre-heating of ceramic filter (none, some, glowing red)
· distance flame is held from ceramic filter
· angle of flame (is it striking glass sidewalls?)
· lighter movement (held stationary, moved around, up/down, etc.)
· temperature of GVG (colder glass = more condensation = less consumed)

· familiar vs. unfamiliar setting
· indoors vs. outdoors
· preparation of setting (is setting clean, orderly, pleasant?)
· comfort level of setting (comfortable place to sit or lie down?)
· music vs. no music
· type of music
· volume of music
· presence/absence of distracting sounds (traffic, noisy neighbors, barking dogs, etc.)
· presence/absence of other people
· number of other people present
· degree of familiarity with other people present
· degree of sobriety of other people present
· degree of experience with DMT/other psychedelics of other people present
· light level (dark, dim, bright)
· ambient temperature and other environmental factors (humid?, windy?, stormy?)
· various other setting factors (doing it in a hot tub?, in a shower?)

· anxiety level immediately prior to consuming dose
· baseline psychological factors (are you generally anxious, depressed, happy, relaxed?)
· degree of experience with DMT
· nature of prior psychedelic experiences
· nature of pre-DMT ritual (if any)
· general physical state (energized, tired, aches and pains?, illness present?)
· general psychological state immediately prior to consuming dose
· physical/mental activities prior to consuming dose (long day at work?, walk in a park?, fight with spouse?)
· presence/absence of other drugs in system
· time of last DMT dose (30 minutes, 1 hour, 1 week?)
· presence/absence of foods in system that affect experience (MAOI-containing foods?)
· expectations regarding experience
· beliefs regarding the nature of DMT experiences
· physiological state (blood-sugar level, hormone levels)

 

[Rising Spirit]

I don't think my point was understood. I will try and reiterate.

Thank you burnt, all I ever ask for is objective clarification, without an imbalance of skepticism and preconceived bias. I hope you don't feel I was rude of me to mention your name, but I wanted to draw you into this discussion from a slightly different angle, so to speak. I'm glad you dropped in.

With regards to dmt. Certainly we could expect that different crystal forms of the freebase could effect its bio-availability with oral administration. Whether or not these differences are significant has not been determined. It does seem that different salt forms have different potency.

Vaporizing on the other hand is a different story because the drug is being put into the gas phase before its inhaled. Its well known that crystal forms can have different melting points. So the rate at which dmt would enter the gas phase could be different depending on crystal form. Its likely that some dmt degrades when heated depending on the smoking technique. So the amount of time that dmt is in the pipe/smoking device in the gas phase before its inhaled would vary. This all could effect the pharmacokinetic properties of how much and how fast dmt is absorbed in to the lung.

I see a your point of view and follow your logic to it's most reasonable conclusions. From my vantage point, far more investigation on my part must be done, before I personally have any truly valid degree or understanding, by which to draw a final conclusion. I too, would like to know how the direct subjective impressions CaptainFuture has had, relates to the geometry and said transmission of 'knowledge' and it's apparently noticeable enhancement.

So for these reasons I don't see why it makes sense to speculate about hypothetical information being locked in the crystal structure which transmits some kind of effect to the trip. If everything I said turned out to be wrong or one wanted to consider such a possibility a number of issues demand explanation. What kind of information? How does this information cause psychedelic experiences?

Well said. Perhaps the Captain himself, should swing by and explain some of his personal insights or speculations; how it may relate to biophysics and/or some kind of presently unknown influence which is transferred by the Spirit Molecule? In my own case... I personally, cannot rule out the power of suggestion, by my foreknowledge, in regards to the crystallographic geometry and the intrinsic nature of crystal amplification and magnification. This I freely admit. As a gemologist, I judge the crystal by it's interior and exterior clarity; color distribution, geometric properties, symmetry, etc...

gibran2, as always, you blown me away with your incredible degree of specificity! Thank you for posting such a thorough list of potential causatives in effect (our perception of the high). I noticed the glaring absence of an consideration of crystalline geometries. No room for speculation? It's quite intriguing to hear your spin on things. I can only imagine the complexity of your unabridged, full-blown list of variables. I bet it would make for a nice chapter in your forthcoming book? Might there be somewhere on the list, any room for the geometry issue, say towards the very tail end?

Is there anyone else out there who has had any experiences which might support or dispute the subjective findings of the talented and ingenious CaptainFuture? Obviously, personal experiences are preferable to theories, hypotheses, spiritual fantasy or predetermined prejudice in rationale. But the door is wide open for observations, ideas and conceptual constructs, so come on in and share yours. Don't be shy but please do be courteous with your comments. OK? Please feel free to toss your 2 cents worth into the Proverbial Hat.

Thanx Folks, have a good dream and enjoy this moment.

 

[gibran2]

gibran2, as always, you blown me away with your incredible degree of specificity! Thank you for posting such a thorough list of potential causatives in effect (our perception of the high). I noticed the glaring absence of an consideration of crystalline geometries. No room for speculation? It's quite intriguing to hear your spin on things. I can only imagine the complexity of your unabridged, full-blown list of variables. I bet it would make for a nice chapter in your forthcoming book? Might there be somewhere on the list, any room for the geometry issue, say towards the very tail end?

Actually, I did include the consideration of crystalline geometries. It is near the beginning of the list - the third item in the second group: “DMT crystalline structure”.

I am not questioning whether or not crystalline geometry/structure has an effect on subjective experience. I’m just trying to point out something very simple: When you have a DMT experience, and something about it is different from a prior experience, how do you determine what caused the difference?

(No book any time soon. )

 

[burnt]

I am not questioning whether or not crystalline geometry/structure has an effect on subjective experience. I’m just trying to point out something very simple: When you have a DMT experience, and something about it is different from a prior experience, how do you determine what caused the difference?

Yep. Good list too. There so many factors that go into a psychedelic trip. Its part of what makes the interesting. Many other drugs are just like pressing a button and you get the very similar effect every time. Psychedelics alter your perception so depending on what your perception is up to consciously or subconsciously have a major influence on the subjective effects.

Thank you burnt, all I ever ask for is objective clarification, without an imbalance of skepticism and preconceived bias. I hope you don't feel I was rude of me to mention your name, but I wanted to draw you into this discussion from a slightly different angle, so to speak. I'm glad you dropped in.

I don't mind at all.

 

[Rising Spirit]

Actually, I did include the consideration of crystalline geometries. It is near the beginning of the list - the third item in the second group: “DMT crystalline structure”.

I am not questioning whether or not crystalline geometry/structure has an effect on subjective experience. I’m just trying to point out something very simple: When you have a DMT experience, and something about it is different from a prior experience, how do you determine what caused the difference?

Yes... yes, you certainly did. Can I blame my oversight on my disorientation from an intense Salvia Divinorum session? Sure, blame the Diviner's Sage... but that's my story and I'm sticking to it (hehehe).

When I previously read your entry, I was still quite effervescent from the immersion and remained oscillating between reason and abstraction. This leaves me semantically challenged, to say the very least. In this state, I was unconsciously looking for the word 'geometry' and missed the significance and characteristics of the word 'structure'.

I misunderstood you as to be meaning molecular structure, not exterior crystalline geometry. My bad for missing your intention. I should probably wait for full re-integration and the return cycle into normal sensibilities, before launching into any efforts to verbally communication in such specific discussions about the probability of DMT crystalline structural geometries?

You are most correct about the complexity of potential effects. What endlessness implied in the above mentioned mandala and monk scenario, also puts these many effects into synthesis with personal proclivities and mental receptivity. The proper head, so to speak. The geometry of the mandala would mean something entirely different to varied peoples.

Now if there is more than mere speculation involved in the idea that external DMT crystalline geometries effect the perception of certain specific, receptive individuals, then we need to establish if this would be the case without the foreknowledge that any special crystalline geometry were being vaporized. This would establish procedure and some reasonable basis to evaluate the phenomenon. Again, endlessness' blind test with a reliable group of experienced participants.

Not only that, it would have variance with the same receptive individuals, as with the Tibetan monks, depending on some of the myriad causatives in effect (which you so eloquently listed above). So yes, it is difficult to distinguish beyond the shadow of a doubt, without repeated, duplications in the ritual. Even then, things are rarely as simple as we would prefer them to be. It can be quite complex in defining it's specificity, as you suggest.

And it's a pity about the delay of your landmark book's publication. It would be a fascinating read, no doubt. Philosophy is not dead and philosophers are not the byproduct of an antiquated view. Still, every philosophical premise changes as new territory is explored. Good ideas are best collected in a comprehensive format, why not pen something unique and in-depth? No pressure, man. We can all wait, as patience is a virtue.