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So really, what makes my dmt yellow, no speculation.

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Tangarine_Dreams

Tangarine_Dreams

Rising Star
so xlogp says noxide is insol in naphtha and heptane...

yet i get beautiful orange to yellow spice using both naphtha and heptane.
when the spice is dissolved in boiling heptane there is an orange layer at the bottom of the beaker, and boiling yellow heptane above that.
if u let it settle, most of the kicked up orange oil falls down and the heptane becomes more clear-yellow than yellow.
very quickly there after dmt starts to fall out. if i siphon off this layer right before it cools that much and evap or fp, i get a ring of orange in the middle at the very bottom, a layer of pale yellow above that and all across the beaker, then a ring of oils around the beaker at the very top with a few xtals sticking to the sides.

the only way i can clean it up is by saturating hot naphtha with this mixture of orange oil and yellow spice. then let it coolsome and the oil sticks to the jar, then decant. if i do this enough i get pure cake on the bottom, crystal on top yellow pice. but its still ALWAYS yellow. anytime i use hot heptane it is too. it remains yellow unless i frz it veeery cold and dont touch it for 5 or so days. even then, when i move it from the frzr it stirs up too much to make totally clear.

can heptane be used when its not boiling?

im using klean strip vmp and bestine heptane.

but seriously, what chemical is this yellow? if u tell me oxide i will again point to the nexus wiki stating it is insol.



the other day i took some of this orange stuff that collects on my jars. i took a 10ml beaker and added 4ml water, some naoh, 4ml of nephtha, and come of this reddish stuff. i mixed it up. the naphtha picked up a slight tinge of color, prolly left over 'dmt'. the water picked up no color, and this reddish orange stuff formed liquid bubbles between the water and naphtha... its not bark. it doesn't dissolve in water. i filter out bark with a cotton bit and a pipette in the manner people do with heroin.

im not too inclined to make my spice white as i believe i prefer the effect of yellow, but my friends dont all feel the same way.

if its not oxide then what is it? jungle spice? gimmy a chemical and not a speculative phantom psychedelic. ive seen so much contradictory info on what the other alkaloids are.
im using pink powdered ebay bark btw
 

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the 3 pale dishes are warm non boiling heptane. the orange dish is naphtha. the beaker is the lower portion of boiling heptane i spoke of earlier that i do no suck up with a pipette. the clearer portion decanted was evapped then disolved in warm heptane. that is what the 3 pale dishes are. the orange triangle is some super super saturated naphtha.
 
yellow is most likely plant oils or other plant impurities. Indeed n-oxide is not soluble in naphtha/heptane (unless of course your naphtha has traces of aromatics like xylene, which does happen often enough and is responsible for some people using naphtha and getting a red/orange product).

By the way jungle spice is no phantom psychedelic, you can read the analysis here: Summary of jungle spice analytical work - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

but yes neither will jungle spice be present in your product unless it has aromatics mixed in.
 
endlessness said:
yellow is most likely plant oils or other plant impurities. Indeed n-oxide is not soluble in naphtha/heptane (unless of course your naphtha has traces of aromatics like xylene, which does happen often enough and is responsible for some people using naphtha and getting a red/orange product).

By the way jungle spice is no phantom psychedelic, you can read the analysis here: Summary of jungle spice analytical work - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

but yes neither will jungle spice be present in your product unless it has aromatics mixed in.
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I’ve had very yellow spice that dissolved completely in 5% vinegar. If the yellow was from plant oils, I would expect that the oil would not mix with the acidic water. Also, when NaOH was added to the yellow vinegar solution, everything precipitated out – the basic water was not colored yellow.

This has led me to believe that the yellow color comes from alkaloid(s) other than DMT.
 
but check this out:

specially this quote:
burnt said:
Anway if one analyzes jungle spice after MSTFA + 1% TMCS derivitization the following can be observed. DMT and its TMS derivatives, that beta-carbolines TMS derivative, a few organic acids at least one fatty acid and at least one phenolic compound.
Click to expand...

When I said plant oils and other impurities, I was being more generic.. There are also organic acids and fatty acids and a phenolic compounds, so the yellow could be from any of this or other plant impurities which are inactive.. I think considering to be an alkaloid is a speculation that might not hold up to be true. Not that it isnt necessarily true, only proper tests could show either way, but I just think people (not saying you) are too fast in claiming 'other alkaloids', and then from this starts coming all sorts of half-cooked theories that other alkaloids give such and such kind of trips, and im skeptical of that. The only blind test done with yellow vs white spice AFAIK (I think it was ice house shaman) has shown the person was not able to differenciate between the two types, and I would bet that would hold true if more people did these blind tests (but im open to be proven wrong, I would hope more people would test these kind of things)

by the way, not exactly this discussion but very related, I made a thread about the whole spice color discussion here, maybe its of interest to the OP:

 
as far as i know, the pre powdered stuff we buy doesnt have plant oils that cross over in a stb. i may be wrong tho.and even sill, when i do occasionally get all of the amber oil, my spice is still yellow. ive had 2 or 3 fluke pure white fp's. i believe they were naphtha that had been slowly brought down to temp and decanted several times.

1 error i did make, when combining 2 semi spent 100g batches with 350g new batch i did not wait for the cloud from the naoh to clear. what is the cloud? just oxygen/hydrogen? or is something more chemically active?

am i wrong in boiling my heptane? i heat it until it bubbles then pipe it over dried spice. ive also heated it to a boil with the spice in it.
 
Why in the analysis of jungle is the chem labeled yuremamine? i believe it was decided this chemical can not withstand basic environments right?
 
Tangarine_Dreams said:
so xlogp says noxide is insol in naphtha and heptane...
Click to expand...
Well, yes and no. XlogP is a theoretical predictor to give an idea about the propensity of a chemical to dissolve in a solvent. Actually in this case the xlogP of n-oxide says that it is very slightly soluble in water and slightly more soluble in naphtha or heptane. It also says that dmt is more soluble in heptane than n-oxide and that dmt is far less soluble in water than n-oxide among other things.

There are at least a couple of things that go on here:

1. You heat up your recrystallisation solvent (naphtha, heptane etc) too much, e.g boiling point. This will inevitably increase the solubility of n-oxide in the solvent. When the solvent cools, you of course see the n-oxide oil falling out. When it does fall out, it will carry over some dmt as well. If that is left to dry it will form "ring" structures with patches of yellow, white and maybe orange.

2. Heating too much the re-x solvent will cause n-oxide to form. You really do not need to wait too long if you, e.g. dissolve the whitest of the white spice in boiling naphtha, shake it well and watch the solvent it turning slightly yellow.

What you must do: Mix your yellow/orange dmt with your re-x solvent and start heating it slowly. Swirl gently to help dissolution. As long as you see the solvent acquiring the sightliest yellow you stop heating, decant the clear solvent (it should contain the dmt only and then let it evaporate/precipitate/whatever may you.

Also, the yellow is less likely to be fat oils since they would stay dissolved in the re-x solvent and they would not precipitate. As long as you got the yellow spice by freeze-precipitating your pulls, you should not worry too much about oils and the above guidelines should suffice. But if you evaporated all the pulls and now you try to clean it up, then things go more complicated. How did you procure the yellow/orange spice?


gibran2 said:
I’ve had very yellow spice that dissolved completely in 5% vinegar. If the yellow was from plant oils, I would expect that the oil would not mix with the acidic water. Also, when NaOH was added to the yellow vinegar solution, everything precipitated out – the basic water was not colored yellow.

This has led me to believe that the yellow color comes from alkaloid(s) other than DMT.
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This says nothing really. To me it could be interpreted as that "n-oxide is insoluble in a mixture of sodium acetate and sodium hydroxide". In any case, it would great to know how the yellow spice was acquired, as above. This makes it far easier to discuss of its nature.
 
Tangarine_Dreams said:
Why in the analysis of jungle is the chem labeled yuremamine? i believe it was decided this chemical can not withstand basic environments right?
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Because you didn't really read the analysis correctly. Read it again.

Burnt basically wrote that yuremamine was detected in cold methanolic extracts here, i.e. a crude extract. He said nothing about pH, water, bases and aromatic solvents.
 
yes but then that has nearly no value to us as unless we go out of our way to do the same extraction. i read it, but irrc the name yuremamine comes from one bit of data some where and we are assuming that the chemical in the gcms is this thus it gets the name yuremamine when really it is not the chemical spoken of when the name was coined.

i cannot for the life of me find this article that spoke of this 'sacred pure red spice" where the name comes from.

on an unrelated note, in another life of mine, a much greener one, there was talk of elusive trichromes that synthesized a red terpine. ive seen 2 plants with red trichs where only a portion of the trichs were red. anecdotally, it was a very cerebral and psychedelic high. i find it funny that i find myself again dealign with odd red things.

does anyone know what temp oxide forms prolifically?
 
Tangarine_Dreams said:
yes but then that has nearly no value to us as unless we go out of our way to do the same extraction. i read it, but irrc the name yuremamine comes from one bit of data some where and we are assuming that the chemical in the gcms is this thus it gets the name yuremamine when really it is not the chemical spoken of when the name was coined.
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You must be really struggling to put ideas, thoughts, opinions etc down to coherent sentences, right?

Yuremamine is a documented substance, check

Isolation and characterization of yuremamine, a new phytoindole - PubMed for the first

Yuremamine has a defined molecular weight and can thus be accurately identified if methanolic extract (as burned reported) of mhrb is injected into a mass spectrometer.

Tangarine_Dreams said:
i cannot for the life of me find this article that spoke of this 'sacred pure red spice" where the name comes from.
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Eh? Which name? The term yuremamine was coined by the people who discovered it and it has nothing to do with sacred pure red spice.
 
i did not know about the data in the link you posted ty. but still like endless and i have both read somewhere, even if it is in gcms, it doesnt much matter to those of us just doing ab/stb and is therefore not what makes dmt yellow.

So far the info in this thread points to oxide's solubility in n/h to be different from the predicted.


does anyone have a real, not projected mg/ml sol of dmt in room temp heptane? ive seen a member say he dissolves 1g in 100ml. does 10mg/ml room temp sound right? i havent even attempted to work with cool heptane.

and yea, cognitive function is markedly worse after my use of rc's and dmt than it was when i just did lsd and mushrooms. tho this can be caused from many other things in my life.
 
I think the reason it turns yellow is probably from it converting to n-oxide.

I say this because I have seen my spice durring the first few days of the drying process its clear /white and then as the last few days of drying finish up it gets a yellow tint on the outside of it... looks like it makes sense that what is being exposed to the oxygen in the air is converting to n-oxide... but I could be way off...
 
Tangarine_Dreams said:
as far as i know, the pre powdered stuff we buy doesnt have plant oils that cross over in a stb. i may be wrong tho.and even sill, when i do occasionally get all of the amber oil, my spice is still yellow. ive had 2 or 3 fluke pure white fp's. i believe they were naphtha that had been slowly brought down to temp and decanted several times.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but mate... Boiling heptane is a pretty heavy duty solvent.

SWIM don't want you smoking this tan wax though ~gags with the thought of those purges~
Please combine and recrystalise, or you may perform a converstion to acetates and back to freebase
to loose the impurities.
 
Yeah mumbles is right. Have you performed another acid/base extraction? dissolve the spice in slightly acidic water, turn it to a basic solution and extract with organic solvent. you should have pure white crystals after this.
 
this thread wasnt about how to get pure xtals. i know how to do this. its about what this actually is. it is heat reactive, an oil, will solidify if a small % of dmt is added to it. more forms the longer the jug sits of the more heat is exposed to it. all signs say oxide. the info out there never says that oxide and other tryptamines can become soluble via heating. since this is the case, i think it should be noted.
 
Hey I thought of an idea of how to tell if the 'turning to -oxide' thing is right or not: perform the whole procedure (in a timely manner) under nitrogen. In this case there can't be any oxidation because there's no oxygen, right?

And on a side note: if anyone knows enough to tell me "how much" oxygen it would take to oxidize 'x' amount of spice I might be able to draw some conclusions from previous experiments. My observation was that the longer the STB+solvent mixture is sitting there, the yellower the solvent layer becomes. I'm not sure how the oxidation-reaction 'equations' work, but I could come up with (fairly accurately): the amount of 'stuff' in the solvent, the amount of solvent, the volume of air in the container, and even the surface area of the solvent layer coming into contact with said air (if that even effects it), etc.

My intuition tells me though that (as suggested in other replies) any increase in yellowness over time is going to be from more fatty-gooey-crappy-alkaloidy-nonspicey junk coming up into the solvent as time goes by. I say this because I hear the yellowness shows up not during stages such as the boiling off of solvent as part of re-crystallization, but instead is already there from the time of extraction (and, in the firstly mentioned step, said application of heat, in open air, should cause far more oxidizing than just letting the liquid layer in question sit in contact with a small volume of air in a closed container).

The thing is though, if the color really does mainly come from that unwanted 'gunk,' then shouldn't people, who really know what they're doing, end up with colorless crystals at the end of their multiple re-crystallization purification work? I didn't think that was true though (i.e. the crystals get purer but still end up yellow/orange)?
 
Interesting read and associated threads posted.

I can understand how exposing the freebase to air will cause oxidation, but with regards to temperature of solvent when recrystallizing, will someone explain the claim that elevated solvent temperature will cause the NN-DMT to convert tn N-Oxide?(Is this even true?)

Also, we can establish that N-Oxide is a waxy yellow material. but it can't account for all of the yellow goop due the statement that it's "insoluble" in heptane/naphtha, right? (Unless the solvent is heated to a very high temp which increased the solubility.)..In room temp extractions maybe it's just less soluble than NN and you pull N-oxide in smaller proportion....<-non expert observation

This is extremely interesting post by 69ron:
DMT N-Oxide to Freebase DMT
 
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