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socio-economic 'evolution'?

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polytrip

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Many of us have probably heard of the 'flyn-effect' wich means that the average iq's of each generation of children raises with 4 points every ten years.

But to me, it increasingly looks like this is not true for the general population.
It looks a lot to me, like there s a growing gap between income groups wich is not just financial, but also ideological and it manifests itself in many other ways as well.

I truly start to fear that there is a growing gap in general mental abilities, not just intellectual, but also in social abilities, psychological stability, etc, so basically the total ability's of the mind.

Mankind is not evolving nor de-evolving i fear, but both.
Part of humanity will become smarter, healthier, older, taller, more social, more stable, more spiritualy evolved and also wealthier.
While another segment of the worlds population will not join this development and would possibly even grow dumber, unhealthier, more unstable, etc.

And none of us would like to admit it, but this divide runs along the lines of income differences. Basically, the poor will not be the highest spiritually evolved of man, while the wealthier will be.

This basically has to do with the fact that childeren born in a wealthy environment are more stimulated to develop themselves mentally in the broadest sense and those of us, born in poor environments are more often confronted with crime and, less stimulated.

And most importantly, when your situation is very unfortunate, when you are suffering much, you are less likely to WANT to develop mentally, because a higher awareness will mean a higher awareness of your own misfortune and suffering.

This is why you see a weird paradox in all western nations: liberal intellectuals often treasure the ideology of the emancipation of the lower classes, while the lower classes more and more resist this very idea of THEIR OWN emancipation. They vote for politicians who idealize a gap between the have's and have-not's. They vote for those who want to diminish their possibility's to ever get out of poverty.

Joe the plumber votes republican, or UK independant party, FPÖ, vlaams belang, PVV, forza italia, partido popular, etc.

And solidarity between social classes is therefore diminishing. For some people 'intellectual' is a dirty word, while for others it is a compliment.

Am i seeing this wrong? is it possible there ever will be unity amongst people SOMEWHERE?
 
Noone has the time to grow spiritually unless they have other more physical necessities taken care of first..like food and shelter.

It's about neurological realities..what circuit you are on.

If you are always struggling to pay rent and eat dinner..that is the circuit you are always running on..a more physical-terrestrial circuit/level or reality.

When those things are taken care of and more stability is there..you can move out of that circuit loop and have more time to activate higher reality circuits..
 
I thought about this a bit for the last hour..and I dont think that the wealthy are really becomming more intelligent at all.

Look how alot of the money is made these days...is that intelligent?...to support slave labour work camps run by poor little children?

And environmental destruction...lots of peopel make money at the expense of the environment..makes sense why so many people jsut dont want a part in it..reguardless of how much $$ is involved..\

To think that that is intelligence is kind of dangerous...

The upper class I find doesn't like to think about this stuff in alot of situations..becasue it threatens the the stability of the bubble worlds they live in..

These people dont care to look ahead, or a too stupid to...the real unintelligent thing to do is to push foreward trying to further your own personal welfare by sacrificing the welfare of the planet...what's the point of intelligence anyway if the place you live becommes unsustainable?

About who people vote for...I have not voted in the last few elections here becasue it doesnt matter. Voting these days is nothing but a god damn joke..anyone who believes a vote these days means anything needs to give their head a shake...look around...

We need a vote box for something completely alternative to the options the pricks in power present us with...like maybe a REAL democracy..

I voted for the green party for a while...but I eventually saw themto be just as backwards and condescending as the rest of them..the liberals here are involved in money laundering...the NDP are cowards and liars, sayign they are for cannabis legalization, yet fire people when it comes out they were once workign for the marijuana party..then we have our concervatives..oh those conservtives!..we all love Mr. Harper!...why?..he got rid of Kyoto in canada!..wonderful man!..Green party says this, does that..makes no sense..

I can't get behind any one of them becasue they are all inconsistant LIARS!..typical politicians.

Fuck the economy and fuck the the social imbalances it stands on...
 
I very much think like this two. The way our economy works is the biggest problem on earth right now.

But the paradox is that the ones at the bottom are most opposed to change.
And the ones who benefit most of all the inequality's are the most willing to change things.

I often work as a volunteer for oxfam and the vast majority of people working for this organization are well educated people from higher social classes.

When i worked for a union, trying to improve working conditions for the most uneducated jobs, i ran into more resistance from the workers of these low-skilled jobs themselves. Bosses where often more then willing to change things.

A good example of this is a maximum to weight that a human would have to lift: in one organization 66% of all workers had problems with their backs.Tere is a law that protect workers against having to lift too much weight. But the workers of this company consequently where against these laws and regulations themselves, because they felt they where 'treated like pussy's'.

So i can't help seeing a weird paradox ocurring.

People who suffer most from exploitation and inequality are often so bitter about their situation that they're simply stuck, mentally.

Take the hiphop music that cultivate's and glorifies gang-life and violence. That's exactly what i mean. If people living in tough neighbourhoods glorify gang life, then things will never change for them. While the rest of the world move's on.
 
yes I agree it definatily isnt so cut and dry..and thats the problem..things arent always what they seem to be.

"Take the hiphop music that cultivate's and glorifies gang-life and violence. That's exactly what i mean. If people living in tough neighbourhoods glorify gang life, then things will never change for them. While the rest of the world move's on."

Good point..I think it's hard though for people to see beyond what society drops right in front of they're faces..But not all hip hop is like that..there are always exceptions.
 
"I often work as a volunteer for oxfam and the vast majority of people working for this organization are well educated people from higher social classes."


I had a girlfriend who did lots of volunteer work for social things as well..she came from a wealthy family who paid for her to do everything..phone bills, car payments travel school etc..I started to see more and more how she was just a spoiled little brat though and coudlnt treat people in the real world the way she was always preaching about..despite her volunteer work. It was obvious how it had backfired on her because lots of people could not stand her. Now I think she only really did it becasue she didnt really have to make any money herself..her parents had basically spoiled her. she didnt't and couldnt understand the people she was always talking about helping..
 
I disagree with your initial point, polytrip.. Its pretty obvious to me that so-called 'spiritual evolution' has no relation with number of 0's in one's bank account.. People of developed conscience are rare in all groups!

In theory money could be used for developing one's potential, yes, but in practice its not.. Just look at recent investment in technology in classrooms which are many times used in very superficial ways (like word processing, etc), just maintaining usual 'memorizing for exams, linear thinking' kind of development, while it is possible to help one develop many of his potentials, emotional stability, rational critical thinking and so on, even in an isolated jungle.

Maybe in the city, in the western world, with money, people learn to develop a certain style of thinking, a certain level of personality, but many times this comes at the expense of other types of development, which other contexts/cultures may better provide for.

To me we have to try to develop some kind of education system that tries to get the best out of all worlds and helps whoever comes across it's sphere of influence, whether it is poor, rich, indigenous, urban citizen and so on
 
Well, i don't know if i'm a spoiled brat, though my family is not wealthy. But i do understand the people that i tried to help. And that's why i'm pessimistic. because i have seen so much bitterness and resentment, that i simply don't believe that people treasuring this bitterness will ever be able to grow. They may be right about their bitterness. But the bitterness itself has become the greatest obstacle for change.

You see this strugle everywhere. Especialy in the islamic world. The west has done some pretty nasty things to the islamic world, but nowadays most of the problems muslims face are caused by other muslims and not the west. And i do not think that is likely to change.

And on the other hand you see more and more people becoming interested in spirituality, like on this site.
So i see a gap.
wich i don't like. But i still see it.
 
polytrip said:
Well, i don't know if i'm a spoiled brat, though my family is not wealthy. But i do understand the people that i tried to help. And that's why i'm pessimistic. because i have seen so much bitterness and resentment, that i simply don't believe that people treasuring this bitterness will ever be able to grow.
Click to expand...

Well..I wasnt saying YOU are a spoiled little brat at all!..just making a point that not everything is as it seems..everyone is different.

I understand what it is you are saying..I just dont agree 100%..lots of variables.
 
polytrip said:
Well, i don't know if i'm a spoiled brat, though my family is not wealthy. But i do understand the people that i tried to help. And that's why i'm pessimistic. because i have seen so much bitterness and resentment, that i simply don't believe that people treasuring this bitterness will ever be able to grow. They may be right about their bitterness. But the bitterness itself has become the greatest obstacle for change.

You see this strugle everywhere. Especialy in the islamic world. The west has done some pretty nasty things to the islamic world, but nowadays most of the problems muslims face are caused by other muslims and not the west. And i do not think that is likely to change.

And on the other hand you see more and more people becoming interested in spirituality, like on this site.
So i see a gap.
wich i don't like. But i still see it.
Click to expand...

Did you ever considered that the bitterness you saw cannot be generalized to all poor people? I know from my own experience I have met several poor/simple/rural people that have more joy in life and more developed conscience and balanced emotions than any of our so-called 'experts and leaders' in this or that area of western knowledge and culture. One of the most interesting thing I like to do is travel to small places and talk with local people, one can see so much knowledge and wisdom!

As for the islamic world having problems nowadays mostly caused by themselves, I dont take this line of thinking because I usually avoid isolating one line of relationship and rather try to look in a more sistemic way.. I think islamic world has problems because of several things, including how the western world deals with it, and also how they deal inside of their own groups... The western world has also it's own mountain of mistakes that must be dealt with

Lastly, becoming interested in spirituality is not necessarily directly related to being spiritually advanced or being inwardly balanced or having a developed conscience. Just look at the new age movement and all the posers and all the ego and all the misinformation and self-delusion...
 
"But the bitterness itself has become the greatest obstacle for change."

Yes I agree with you there. It's hard for people to move beyond anger and stop blaming everyone else and being resentful..becasue it means you must take some responcibility yourself. The anger and resent that was probabily jusifiable at one time or another now stops them from growing..they cannot move past the darkness.

It's wonderful to simply let go and CHOOSE to see the light despite what one feels inclined to see..something I think all of us could work on a bit more.
 
Saying that rich people are more spiritual is ofcourse total nonsense.

But i do believe that economic growth has lead to a greater overall awareness on as well the social issues tied to this growth and for instance the environmental costs, as personal awareness.

While poverty definately blocks this personal growth.

There are many great examples of people who have managed to conquer these obstacles. It's not like the law of gravity.
But it's clear that poverty has a great psychological impact wich becomes a negative selffulfilling spiral.

So i wonder how our society's are going to deal with this.
I fear that solidarity for lower income groups is just going to diminish.
 
polytrip said:
Saying that rich people are more spiritual is ofcourse total nonsense.

But i do believe that economic growth has lead to a greater overall awareness on as well the social issues tied to this growth and for instance the environmental costs, as personal awareness.

While poverty definately blocks this personal growth.

There are many great examples of people who have managed to conquer these obstacles. It's not like the law of gravity.
But it's clear that poverty has a great psychological impact wich becomes a negative selffulfilling spiral.

So i wonder how our society's are going to deal with this.
I fear that solidarity for lower income groups is just going to diminish.
Click to expand...

I still think you see a relationship where personally I dont see any.. I dont think its poverty that creates this obstacle to awareness, because one can use both his own poverty and his own riches to aid or hamper his own inner development.. The division of classes and the power and money greed from both sides is both a reflection and a co-responsible for the general lack of conscience.

I dont think economic growth leads to greater overall awareness on social and environmental issues.. Just look at how small communities and certain indigenous groups are sometimes much more harmoniously organized and ecologically conscious, while western nations as a whole are still far lacking in terms of sustainability in all senses.. Sure maybe western world has brought some more efficient ways of measuring CO2 input and how many KWatts such and such is used, info that is sometimes used at finding ecological balanced solutions, but together it brings more and more wasteful technologies that make the race for achieving sustainability like the horse that runs to catch the carrot that is tied to his own head
 
"I dont think economic growth leads to greater overall awareness on social and environmental issues.. Just look at how small communities and certain indigenous groups are sometimes much more harmoniously organized and ecologically conscious, while western nations as a whole are still far lacking in terms of sustainability in all senses.. Sure maybe western world has brought some more efficient ways of measuring CO2 input and how many KWatts such and such is used, info that is sometimes used at finding ecological balanced solutions, but together it brings more and more wasteful technologies that make the race for achieving sustainability like the horse that runs to catch the carrot that is tied to his own head"

Very good points!..this whole discussion is interesting..
 
"Part of humanity will become smarter, healthier, older, taller, more social, more stable, more spiritualy evolved and also -wealthier-.
While another segment of the worlds population will not join this development and would possibly even grow dumber, unhealthier, more unstable, etc."



With regards to wealth/money I can not agree with that statement at all.
Wealth has nothing to do with anything, especially intelligence.

It's ALL about awareness.

Indigenous/Native people have no "money" at all; and at the same time, are more aware of the destruction of the environment, and ecosystems WE cause by pollution, landfills and Economic Waste than ANY of us Consumers who -think- we know (we can't see the forest for the trees)
-We are the ones that aren't changing or fixing our ways.

It reminds me of the video Fractal posted about the younger brother/older brother mentality, and that is exactly the way they see us as.

-We are destroying Our "Easter Island" clearly...yet we don't stop and are too slow to change! We ignore the facts, We are fixated on jobs, money, possessions.

I don't see any of us with our Material possessions and our Fiat money as intellegent at all.. through these ideologies We are being completely controlled.

-And I mean WE because I am including myself in this ridiculousness.
 
Hmm, well i see a class-strugle everywhere in the sense marx described.
Maybe a bit more complicated. Not higher classes and lower classes, but higher classes, the great midle class group and the lower classes.
The higher classes and the middle classes manage to adept to new circumstances where the lower class doesn't manage.

And it's just a fact that people from the lower classes are more involved in crime. And this is true everywhere.

My point is not to speak wuith disdain to people with not enough money to get by.
My point is that i see a rupture occuring in all western society's.

I see progress in modern society in many ways and i see how that progres doesn't reach the people at the bottom.
Partly because the system still holds people down. But also because there are many people who hold themselves down.

I would not suggest that giving away free money or something would help.

In fact the whole thing might not have anything to do with social classes on itself.
But the fact that you see a far greater concentration of severe social problems like crime, racism, religious fundamentalism, substance abuse, etc. at the bottom of our society's is a complicating factor.

This is complicating because as a matter of speaking, childeren are born in a prison. A prison of social stigma, frustrated parents etc.

I can understand why people who grow up in gaza become terrorists, but you have to admit that it's not a good choice. It's a dead-end street.
And nowadays you see that in gaza, palestinians are as much eachothers enemy as isreal is.

And you just have to admit that you see this in EVERY getto.
You see it in the getto's that gave us hiphop, in brazil there is a constant war going on in the slums, you see it in french banlieu's and the italian maffia-owned neighbourhoods and towns.

And i don't see how this could not, at one moment, lead to some sort of crisis.
 
polytrip said:
And it's just a fact that people from the lower classes are more involved in crime. And this is true everywhere.
Click to expand...

quite an affirmation you made there... care to back it up?

What kind of crimes are you talking about? And.. Are unlawful activities always a negative thing, and directly related to lack of 'spirituality' or 'conscience' or whatever?

and also, what about all the politicians and the higher classes tax evasions, drug use, bribing, etc etc etc? Its maybe just different problems but there surely are


I also disagree that children are born in a prison when born in slums, and I have worked with children from these places in Dreamland.. It is a very prejudiced notion, and there is PLENTY of examples of super successful initiatives and solutions to daily life and self development that come from the slums, made by the people, as well as beautiful examples of humanity, of conscience, of fraternity and generosity. There are also many supergifted people.

On the other hand, kids born in higher classes can also both be helped in their development or trapped in their high tech shinning super-protective environment where maybe their abstraction functions are highly developed but when we talk about practical life, emotional stability, conscience and generosity, they are closer to beasts than to deserving humans.
 
endlessness said:
polytrip said:
And it's just a fact that people from the lower classes are more involved in crime. And this is true everywhere.
Click to expand...

quite an affirmation you made there... care to back it up?

What kind of crimes are you talking about? And.. Are unlawful activities always a negative thing, and directly related to lack of 'spirituality' or 'conscience' or whatever?

and also, what about all the politicians and the higher classes tax evasions, drug use, bribing, etc etc etc? Its maybe just different problems but there surely are


I also disagree that children are born in a prison when born in slums, and I have worked with children from these places in Brazil.. It is a very prejudiced notion, and there is PLENTY of examples of super successful initiatives and solutions to daily life and self development that come from the slums, made by the people, as well as beautiful examples of humanity, of conscience, of fraternity and generosity. There are also many supergifted people.

On the other hand, kids born in higher classes can also both be helped in their development or trapped in their high tech shinning super-protective environment where maybe their abstraction functions are highly developed but when we talk about practical life, emotional stability, conscience and generosity, they are closer to beasts than to deserving humans.
Click to expand...
It's easy to back this up. But i wasn't meanig this to be as rigid like the law of gravity.

The simplest way to back it up is to refer to the fact that in every western country, a majority in prison populations exist out of ethnic minorities. And since there is no ethnic, genetically inherited trait to crime and no judicial discrimination of ethnic groups, you would have to look at the social backgrounds of those inmates to explain their criminal activity's.

it's just something like that childeren who get molested, are more likely to become child molesters themselves when they grow up.
That's not a judgement or prejudice towards these childeren, everybody is unique and should be treated so.
But you cannot agree with child molestation either, even if the perpetraters where once victim's themselves.

Unlawfull things are not by definition bad. But when they involve violence, it's a different picture.
 
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