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Sodium Carbonate Wash
- Thread starter Snarr
- Start date
at pH 7, you might lose some product.. SWIM would add a tiny bit of sodium carbonate , like few grains/a pinch... It wont be bad in any way if its higher than 8,5, it is just a general recomendation but no exact science. Some people add like 50 grams or something for like 100ml water, so you see you cant be going wrong 
corridors of my cells
Rising Star
endlessness said:at pH 7, you might lose some product.. SWIM would add a tiny bit of sodium carbonate , like few grains/a pinch... It wont be bad in any way if its higher than 8,5, it is just a general recomendation but no exact science. Some people add like 50 grams or something for like 100ml water, so you see you cant be going wrong
sodium carbonate already has 30gr/100ml solubility so its nonsense to add after that amount... i havent tried it yet.. bought some sodium bicarbonate... and gonna see how much needed to get ph to 8.5 then try...
Btw pH should be around 8.5 right? i kept asking about that on the forum and got no answers yet.. so im asking again
ehehhe
GratefulDad
Rising Star
SWIM does two sodium carb washes and a cold tap water wash, and by doing this, the first wash water can be high ph, as the little bit of tap water washes out any excess bases in the solvent.
corridors of my cells
Rising Star
spIce-T said:
what pH do u get the water when you make SC wash? lol sum 1 tell m plz.. i just added some SBC in 100ml at 26.5 degree celcius to see what happens.. starting pH of drinking water i used was like 6. and when added 1gr it just went up a bit, then added another gram and pH was around 7.05, added another gram but nothing happened this time like its already saturated for SBC.
As far as i read, at 20 degree celcius SBC has 10gr/100ml solubility... thats confusing, then i added around 75ml more water and pH went up to 7.3 ... im totally confused guys
corridors of my cells said:
yeah I found funny that people added so much also, I think it was infundibulum who mentioned it... SWIM always adds only a tiny pinch and it never failed him
btw, in any case, as I mentioned its no exact science, pH 8,5 is good, but if it was 9 or 10 or 11 it wouldnt make any noticeable difference in terms of yield or purity
Well SWIM did the wash with a noticeable reduction in yield. This was the second pull, so SWIM guesses a reduction in yield was inevitable, but SWIM is talking like a 1/4 to an 1/8 of the first pull.
The first pull SWIM didn't wash, because he thought said washed occured before re-cryztalisation not before crystalization. SWIM was flying high after the first pull, he had a HUGE (looked well over a gram from 100 grams of MHRB) pile of crystals that were pure white until he scraped them up. Then they went yellowish and SWIM decided on a re-crysalization. The results are now drying and are noticeably smaller than first yields.
When one does a sodium wash, is it removing the NaOH or simply neutralizing it? Any one have any links to the science behind this? I can't seem to find any...
The first pull SWIM didn't wash, because he thought said washed occured before re-cryztalisation not before crystalization. SWIM was flying high after the first pull, he had a HUGE (looked well over a gram from 100 grams of MHRB) pile of crystals that were pure white until he scraped them up. Then they went yellowish and SWIM decided on a re-crysalization. The results are now drying and are noticeably smaller than first yields.
When one does a sodium wash, is it removing the NaOH or simply neutralizing it? Any one have any links to the science behind this? I can't seem to find any...
yes it removes NaOH and other polar impurities that somehow made its way (specially when people made a sloppy separation). Its not essential, you can skip it if you want.
one can make before recrystalization also, sure... but sometimes recrystalization is not even necessary, and one might want to make sure there is no NaOH remains anyways, so then one does it before the first crystalization.
As for smaller yields, it shouldnt happen, because the freebase dmt theoretically doesnt migrate from the non-polar solvent to a basic water layer. SWIM has never noticed loss in yield when doing this.
Its hard for SWIY to really say that it was the wash that made smaller yield because, as mentioned, it was another pull so many other variables can be accounted for this smaller yield in different pulls. In any case, if SWIY doesnt feel confident with washing, then dont do it, its not essential
one can make before recrystalization also, sure... but sometimes recrystalization is not even necessary, and one might want to make sure there is no NaOH remains anyways, so then one does it before the first crystalization.
As for smaller yields, it shouldnt happen, because the freebase dmt theoretically doesnt migrate from the non-polar solvent to a basic water layer. SWIM has never noticed loss in yield when doing this.
Its hard for SWIY to really say that it was the wash that made smaller yield because, as mentioned, it was another pull so many other variables can be accounted for this smaller yield in different pulls. In any case, if SWIY doesnt feel confident with washing, then dont do it, its not essential
SWIM likes the idea of a cleaner results, and since it removes it, SWIM thinks this will be a essential step in his extracts. SWIM wishes he had a sepratory funnel because syphoning so much is soooo time consuming.
SWIM also thinks for the final pull he will do an evap before freezing to to see if it adds any additional yields that might be in the regurgitated naptha.
EDIT
oh...and thanks for the feedback!
SWIM also thinks for the final pull he will do an evap before freezing to to see if it adds any additional yields that might be in the regurgitated naptha.
EDIT
oh...and thanks for the feedback!
Instead of evaping it all before freezing, what one can do is rather to freeze, but reuse the naphtha... this way even if there is some dmt that didnt precipitate, it will be there for next pull.. and then after the last pull you can evap it to the end to see if theres anything left. This saves you (and the planet) because you dont need to evap all the naphtha all the time but rather only when its really necessary
As for syphoning/separatory funnel, be creative, theres many ways to save you time.. I think it was 69ron that posted sometime a picture of some cooking utensil called 'gravy separator', which is basically a separatory funnel but used for cooking. It has an opening on the bottom that you open by pressing a button. Or get a big pippete/turkey baster that you can use to quickly separate bigger amounts, and then in the last bit have a smaller pippete/baster to more accurately separate the rest.. Or many other options you can think of (or indeed get a separatory funnel hehe). Look around cooking utensil stores, hardware stores, maybe you find something that can be of use.
no prob, glad to be of help
As for syphoning/separatory funnel, be creative, theres many ways to save you time.. I think it was 69ron that posted sometime a picture of some cooking utensil called 'gravy separator', which is basically a separatory funnel but used for cooking. It has an opening on the bottom that you open by pressing a button. Or get a big pippete/turkey baster that you can use to quickly separate bigger amounts, and then in the last bit have a smaller pippete/baster to more accurately separate the rest.. Or many other options you can think of
(or indeed get a separatory funnel hehe). Look around cooking utensil stores, hardware stores, maybe you find something that can be of use.no prob, glad to be of help
GratefulDad
Rising Star
SWIM took detailed photos of the polar wash with epsom salt dry in his STB I posted here: SIMPLE STB PICTORIAL, with Step by Step pics. - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus He doesn't notice any loss in yield, so perhaps take a look at the detailed tek with pics, and see if that doesn't help show exactly how the polar wash is performed. He also uses everyday items, that make separation easily accomplished within minutes, and no siphoning or trying to suck the naphtha off the top. This tek simply pours the majority of solvent off the top, using a makeshift sep funnel designed from a gatorade bottle with a twist close nozzle.
Nice tek spIce-T. SWIM considered using plastics for separatory funnels, but was unsure about the effects the solvents might have on them. Reading the thread SWIY mentioned that there is none if used within a moderate time span, which is good news that will speed up future extractions :d .
People!
An 8.5pH is fine and all, but there is NOTHING saying that you can't get it higher.
11 is fine
10 is fine
9 is fine
and so is everything in between.
You only are adding the base so there is no chance of any of your FREEBASE SPICE to converting back into a salt form. As long as you are raising it above ~8ish you should be fine.
The wash should be in contact with the naphtha for 30seconds-2 minutes, THAT's IT! you want to shake, let settle and pull. You can do this with distilled water and have almost no loss as long as you don't let it sit for days.
This is not a hard thing to do. It takes only a few minutes and will help clean up your spice a bit. Sodium Bicarb seems to work a bit better at pulling out yellow impurities than Sodium Carbonate. I've used both without any problems. You do not have to saturate the solution. A small 1/2teaspoon of Sodium Bicarb in 100mL warm water is more than enough, as is a pinch or two of Sodium Carbonate in the same amount of water. I have NEVER measured my pH after the frist time I did it.
An 8.5pH is fine and all, but there is NOTHING saying that you can't get it higher.
11 is fine
10 is fine
9 is fine
and so is everything in between.
You only are adding the base so there is no chance of any of your FREEBASE SPICE to converting back into a salt form. As long as you are raising it above ~8ish you should be fine.
The wash should be in contact with the naphtha for 30seconds-2 minutes, THAT's IT! you want to shake, let settle and pull. You can do this with distilled water and have almost no loss as long as you don't let it sit for days.
This is not a hard thing to do. It takes only a few minutes and will help clean up your spice a bit. Sodium Bicarb seems to work a bit better at pulling out yellow impurities than Sodium Carbonate. I've used both without any problems. You do not have to saturate the solution. A small 1/2teaspoon of Sodium Bicarb in 100mL warm water is more than enough, as is a pinch or two of Sodium Carbonate in the same amount of water. I have NEVER measured my pH after the frist time I did it.
I guess the confusion for me came from entropymancer epic DMT Extraction Overview (www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1085). It mentions a PH ~8.5. I am unfamiliar with the ~ as any type of mathmatical operator.
If the PH of 8.5 could be exceeded, I would have expected to see > 8.5 or something to the sort.
In general I see the ~ notation quite a bit but I am unsure what it means. Could someione define?
If the PH of 8.5 could be exceeded, I would have expected to see > 8.5 or something to the sort.
In general I see the ~ notation quite a bit but I am unsure what it means. Could someione define?
dont worry, it can get higher for sure, nothing to worry about..
If you understand the principle of what is happening, you will see why its no problem: All that is necessary is a pH of over 8.5 because starting at this point basically 100% of DMT will be freebase, so the sodium carbonate solution will dissolve all polar impurities (like remains of lye or other fats or whatever might have carried its way across when separating the solvent), but the DMT will remain in the non-polar solvent.. So if pH is even higher, still the exact same thing will happen, there is no problem with more sodium carbonate because DMT keeps being only soluble in the non-polar solvent, even more so.
If you understand the principle of what is happening, you will see why its no problem: All that is necessary is a pH of over 8.5 because starting at this point basically 100% of DMT will be freebase, so the sodium carbonate solution will dissolve all polar impurities (like remains of lye or other fats or whatever might have carried its way across when separating the solvent), but the DMT will remain in the non-polar solvent.. So if pH is even higher, still the exact same thing will happen, there is no problem with more sodium carbonate because DMT keeps being only soluble in the non-polar solvent, even more so.