Spinal Cord Injury and Psychedelics

[gammagore]

Hi Nexus

I had this question asked and had difficulty answering it, might be a little broader than just entheos.....

If someone has sustained a spinal cord injury, complete or incomplete, paraplegic or quad/tetraplegic, how would the body react to certain drugs?

I know that say ketamine is a big no no, due to the effect it has on the bladder, spinal injuries almost always have an effect on bladder/bowel, causing them to become either flaccid or reflex depending on the level of the injury, so ketamine would almost definitely cause some degree of damage.

But what about say mescaline or MDMA? Or LSD or DMT?

My thought is that most might cause an increase in spasticity/spasms/tone, but to what extent? Id also imagine that the nerve pain/neuropathy might increase. Any other potential dangers to think of? of course medication interaction is something to be cautious of.....

So any paras/tetras here, or do any of you know of any that have experimented?

 

[Pandora]

Hi gammagore

Wow this is a tough one and of course we can only offer our love, thoughts and advice, rather than true medical counseling. Obviously, avoid anything with MAOI or MAOI prohibitions (such as MDMA) while on most prescriptions.

I have chronic pain due to a number of issues/conditions. Nothing like what you are dealing with of course. Yet, I do suffer from what the doctors call periperal neuropathy . . . . I take a few prescribed drugs.

I have radically cut back on my psychedlic use, BUT within this time of having these conditions and being on these prescription drugs, I have taken LSD successfully. Though for me LSD was a crap shoot with the pain - it would sometimes make it seem worse and other times (this more often) make it seem to go away for the heart of the trip. I have found when tripping on LSD I must attend very carefully to my body positioning - no weird angles or pretzel type stuff.

I have done DMT but only low dose during this time and it was fine. I noticed no pain or issues at all during the intoxication period, .

I have done Ketamine once and MXE several times during this time and it was wonderful. No drug interactions (for me) and a true pain vacation due to the numbing/anaethetic effects.


I would say if you are feeling the call, you should go for it. Lower dosing then working your way up as you get back into it might be wise. Your situation is unenviable, but your positivity and perseverance are an inspiration to all. You are in Nemo Amicus' and my thoughts and meditations. We don't really engage in prayer but if we did or just writing this counts, you are in ours.

Love,
Pandora

 

[obliguhl]

I have noticed pain getting stronger on ayahuasca, but to me it felt as if anxiety was the cause...anxiety moving through my body, manifested as pain...so the situation might be different.

Have you heard about houses miracle nerve pain treatment course with Iboga ?

 

[gammagore]

Pandora, thanks for the kind words, i don't either engage in "prayers" , but Nemo is in my thoughts too.....I often think of Virola78, he was diagnosed with a nasty GBM brain tumor, I'm think he passed away a couple of years ago

Obli, thanks for that info, if "hut" ever pops in, please direct him here or he can pm me, id love to learn mrs about it.

 

[obliguhl]

No problem gamma, look here:

Iboga / Ibogaine and nerve damage / Pain treatment - Iboga - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

I'd love to see you get better, perhaps try to pm him directly if you want to learn more.

And Virola, that was a sad story indeed

 

[Intezam]

Not sure if this counts as spinal injury, but intezam has suffered intravertabral disc herniation (L3,L4,L5).It protruded into the spinal cord - nearly strangling it off. Others protruded towards the sciatic nerves...etc. At times we was unable to walk and our lower limbs went all numb, we could not lift our legs, feet, wiggle our toes and there was some damage involving the deeper functionalities as well. We spent up to a year (India) in pre WW II style quack traction (sleeping on a tilted door blade with brick weights suspended from a hip belt) which worsened the condition.
Then, we learned that peganum harmala can miracolously cure the pain condition and tell the nerves not to over-react (by fighting just 'ANY' pressure/external cause/stimulus with an inflammation type reaction & swelling/blood/lymph accumulation) This also works with severe, sudden toothache.And maybe that's not how it works. We can't explain it. It's a wonder. The effects last permanently or, until the next time the nerve gets pressure/external cause/damage. This is also well known from Yunani medicine.
We don't now, how helpful rue is in regeneration damaged spinal cord tissue, but it wouldn't surprise us if it does help with that too if combined with the right helper plants and/or via the lataif-ul sitta/kunda/dan-tian/thummo route.

 

[corpus callosum]

Great question by Gammagore.

If you were to look at a cross-section of the spinal cord you would see a vaguely butterfly-shaped area of grey matter circumscribed by the white matter (paler area) surrounding it. The white matter is lighter due to the presence of myelin in greater quantities surrounding the ascending and descending tracts' axons which mediate sensory, motor and autonomic functions; at every level of the cord these tracts have direct or inter-neuronal connections to the grey matter. The grey matter is pathologically divided into about 13 distinct areas called the laminae each of which has its own major function/role and as you can imagine, the intricacy of the connections here is pretty mind-boggling.

Certain laminae have a significant number of 5HT receptors of several subtypes and are involved in both facilitatory and inhibitory processes. If we bear in mind that facilitating an inhibitory neurone causes inhibition and conversely facilitating an excitatory neurone causes excitation its clear that the observed effects are not so easy to easily summarise. Those who have spinal cord injuries also have adaptive changes in other neurotransmitter subclasses which are also intimately involved with the range of synaptic 'actors' found in the cord so administration of exogenous receptor agonists could have a range of effects such as altered pain perception and motor effects both positive and negative.

Lastly its important to realise that the pathology affecting the spinal cord will have differential effects on the different laminae and ascending/descending tracts eg a disc slipped anteriorly will have different implications than a disc slipped sideways/posteriorly, and a central cord lesion such as a syrinx or tumour will primarily affect the more centrally-disposed laminae/connections preferentially.

The injury to the spinal cord, which is part of the central nervous system, will also behave differently to problems in the peripheral nervous system as in a peripheral neuropathy, 'sciatica' or root compression which is common in disc lesions and may spare the cord completely. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Intezam]

article on antinociceptive effects of p. harmala by Prof. Mohammad Abdollahi

Antinociceptive effects of Peganum harmala L. alkaloid extract on mouse formalin test.

 

[Nils]

Great question by Gammagore.

Corpus, I am genuinely glad for your response, but so much of that was over my head. I assume the TLDR version is that we haven't done enough studies to really know? In the sense that no one has tried giving paraplegics psychedelics in a controlled environment?

 

[corpus callosum]

^^In essence, yes. But the mechanism of injury to the spinal cord (eg trauma, vascular such as the different types of stroke, tumours, infective processes, various types of degeneration, inflammatory problems like MS etc etc) makes it hard to imagine a uniform response of the damaged cord to the psychedelics. Also a spinal cord insult need not always cause paraplegia, and conversely all paraplegias are not caused by spinal cord problems.

 

[gammagore]

ahhh the good ol spinal cord, so complex

so I've been hunting around for some more info about this, and found a thread over at apparelyzed about lsd trips, but people talk bout a wide range of drugs, so il quote a few of them

I tried it many years back when I was SCI. It was in the presence of two doctors and other friends in a social rather than medical situation. I got spasms, particularly in the legs which jittered away for a few hours. I found that part eventually exhausting but also I had time to revolutionise my appreciation of music.
Acid seems to heighten the intensity of wherever you put your mind. So if you get scared of the spasms you will likely get very scared. If you put your attention elsewhere then you are more likely to forget about the spasms (for a while, at least).
So, I'd agree that it does have the risk of an additional discomfort for SCI people.
..
Way back before E became popular and it was doing the rounds of fringe psychotherapists involved particularly in couples counseling, I tried it a couple of times. On the negative side it seemed to prevent my bladder firing (back then I voided off pressure/reflex) and I wondered if it was causing pressure on the kidneys. On the good side I would put it right up there with the most positively significant experiences of my life. It allowed me to get in touch with the depth of my loving and I've been riding on the confidence of that ever since.
......
I've only ever taken LCD in the company of medical doctors (off duty) and I don't ever intend to try it again. The several "experiments" were richly rewarding but I too got strong spasms, leaving me exhausted. What I had was worth it but I'm no longer interested to go through that again.

A couple of other times I had E with those same supports. Spasm was present but not too bad. The experience changed my life for the better, possibly the most significant realization in my life. But I felt drained the next day and I wouldn't do it again. I don't think it did my body any good.

Mushrooms was a different situation - I was travelling and less responsible with the risk. The first time in Mexico was miserable, hours of exhausting spasms on a river bank which is not a safe environment. A couple of later experiences were in a safer situation and were rather gentle. But the danger of mistakenly eating a poisonous fungi is not worth doing it again.

Any SCI person dabbling with these hallucinogens should be very cautious because it's obvious that strong spasms are common and may hinder breathing or cause severe bruising. Anyone still intending to experiment should go to great lengths to ensure a super safe environment including soft surroundings and knowledgeable friends with you.

So last month, a bunch of us took some E. I typically dont get spasms in my legs but while 'rolling' I had too much going on that i couldnt "get out" my legs ended up stretching themselves out and bouncing alot. Everyone thought I was doing it at first cause it looked so natural. I had to swear I couldnt! My poor friend Jason, I had my feet in his lap as we sat outside, and with every stretch of the legs he got his balls crushed! Oh man it was funny. You think we would have just moved my feet but NOOOOO.. we're dumb and it was funny!

I have to admit I totally figured with such a lack of sensation below my injury, and my muscles going nuts. I for sure thought I would piss myself or something gross. Thank god I didnt!

i would limit the advice of not drop an acid to sci from T5 and higher.. because we dont have our autonomic nervous system working. and drugs normally mess with temperature, blood pressure and other functions regulated by this ANS.
as for the spasms, they are exagerated by one of the side effect caused by pne of the components of a pill of ecstacy, strychnine. strychnine caused spams even in AB because it blocks the inhibitory signs to the muscles, kind of the way a sci does..

I'm a C5-C6 complete and So I've had trouble with the spasms too while tripping either acid or mushrooms. My legs sticking straight out and shake relentlessly and my only fix is to strap them to my chair with a belt. My abdomen and back were flexing back and forth, I did have to urinate a lot so a condom cath helps. The worst parts are my fingers clenching (quad's) and the heating up. Once I was tripping outside in cold cold weather with no shirt on and still hot. And you know how most quads are, so I knew this was not normal.

Don't get me wrong I did love it you feel so free and clear, but this is a big risk. So remember KNOW YOUR BODY, KNOW YOUR MIND, KNOW YOUR DRUG. Be absolutely sure some one will be with you to help and DON'T go out in public.

My scientific theory for what causes this is that Psychedelics like acid even E cause a random synapse or firing of the nerves in your brain and cerebrum which controls a lot of bodily functions. So when one doesn't have any control over the firing of nerves linking to the control of paralyzed limbs in the first place and acid is introduced and causes random firing you get CRAZY spasms for 6 HOURS straight.

So if your in it deep I say take meds for spasms, stay cool (wet towels work), and enjoy the ride.

So, their seem to be mixed reviews on how our mangled bodies react to drugs, spasms being the mail side effect.......maybe il pull out the old GVG in the near future and vape some xtals