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Spiritual Progress Another Domain of the Ego?

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JDSalinger

JDSalinger

Rising Star
This is something which I have been struggling with of late and am hoping some older/wiser cats on here could help me with this. I have been trying hard to be less self focused, and really work on putting positivity and love out into the world. It is a slow progression.

I read in my spare time mostly spiritual and philosophical works, sometimes things regarding eating/living clean. I try and set aside a day a fortnight to be in solitude, take a low-moderate dose of a psychedelic and work on myself. I have gained many invaluable insights. The last time I did this I was in the woods, foraging, meditating, whatever and realised how hypocritical I am being; not focusing on gaining material possessions for myself, (at least to a lesser degree) yet am focused on gaining for myself nonetheless.

Is my quest for happiness, which I believe many on here are on a similar yet unique journey, just another form of ego gratification? Am I alluding myself believing that by helping myself I will help others, or are these steps necessary?

How is a monk living in the mountains different from a tech billionaire? Both are concerned with bettering themselves, only in different ways.

Love :)
 
As long as there is seeking, it is driven by ego. That which you seek is always there. For it to shine forth, complete stillness, i.e. an end to seeking is required. Yet the ego is not different from it. The ego is simply the motion in it. Don't beat yourself up, relax.

There is a great relevant story in the Yoga Vasistha about King Sikhidvaja and his wife, Queen Chudala. You could look it up.
 
Your ego is like your finger nails... They serve some purpose, but they constantly are growing and growing unsustainably, to the point where if you just let it grow it will start being first annoying, then actually dangerous for both yourself and others. So what do you do? Trim it once in a while .

And how to trim the ego? Using certain tools that might be available to you, but mostly it has to be something that humbles you, like psychedelic experiences, martial arts or other difficult endeavors which show you undeniably how much you are still just a beginner and still have to grow, etc .

And yes, sure, the ego can use the opportunity of 'spiritual progress' to make itself grow.. Even when you learn how to control your ego in some situation, you can be sure your ego will be like: "See how amazing you are?! You can control the ego! You're the best!".. Just keep your eyes for this process and catch it as it's happening, and you can prevent the ego from puffing itself up too much. And keep trimming it whenever you have the opportunity :D
 
Agree with all the above.

I don't have much to add, just a few things you mentioned made me think of some words i've read before...

JDSalinger said:
Is my quest for happiness, which I believe many on here are on a similar yet unique journey, just another form of ego gratification? Am I alluding myself believing that by helping myself I will help others, or are these steps necessary?
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Happiness is your nature. It is not wrong to desire it. What is wrong is seeking it outside when it is inside.

Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.

~ Ramana Maharshi
 
Some very thoughtful responses above.

I think you might be operating with a bit of a narrow perspective on what "spirtitual practice" is. Here is a quote from philosopher Ken Wilber on spiritual practice that I think is illuminating: "Authentic spirituality is revolutionary. It does not legitimate the world, it breaks the world; it does not console the world, it shatters it. And it does not render the self content, it renders it undone."

It is absolutely true that wherever there is seeking, there is ego. At the beginning of any individual's "spiritual journey" this is so - naturally there will be seeking, grasping, and conceptualization of what the "spiritual path" is. This - the ego - is of course required to "get" any one on the path in the first place. However, actual genuine spiritual practice is about (as it is often put) breaking/transcending the ego, eradicating all attachments, recognizing your prior nature which neither you nor anything has ever deviated from. Having such experiences serves to humble one immensely.

Once one has found the ego-less vast "emptiness" inhering in reality, then part 2 of the process - the contemplative traditions say - is the "nondual" side: in which, one re-inhabits and embraces mundane, ordinary life with a greater, newfound vitality (in Buddhism, it is called the union of Nirvana and Samsara), and life becomes "lila" or "play" (Hinduism). Why? It's somewhat analogous to lucid dreaming, in a more cosmic way - when you finally realize that you're dreaming and attain lucidity, do you become more fearful of the dream world and inhibited, or do you realize nothing in the dream can truly harm you (since it's only a dream) and thus become fearless and un-inhbited - jumping up and down, taking risks, flying, etc? Many mistake egoless-ness (once it is realized and carried into ordinary life) for a dissociative state - when it's actually the complete opposite. So you can be an enlightened billionaire, say, as long as you realize what the "game" is all about - but there is no guarantee you won't start to naturally feel an urge to give it all away (e.g., to charity) once you're "there".

I would recommend (if you are interested) reading in depth into the actual process, practice, and theory associated with certain contemplative traditions like Zen, Tibetan Buddhism or Vedanta Hinduism - I find that it's common for some people to have a "folk conception" of mysticism/spirituality and to misunderstand what's behind the practice of these traditions. I'm not saying this totally applies to you, but maybe you are influenced by this line of thought.

It is also true that many individuals who claim to be enlightened are not, and are actually just projecting more of their own ego. No one said there couldn't be pathologies and slip-ups during one's practice. That's why it's often necessary to embed one's practice in a Sangha - a larger group of practitioners with greater experience that one's own - which puts in place a system of "checks and balances" on one's ego and practice.
 
JDSalinger said:
How is a monk living in the mountains different from a tech billionaire? Both are concerned with bettering themselves, only in different ways.
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This is a great question, and mirrors some of where I got to. I apologise for sounding like I think I know stuff, I don't - but writing this stuff helps me see what it is I am thinking. I reserve the right to disagree with all of this next week.

In my honeymoon period I pretty much went through seeing this world as an illusion, like it was less valid than a deeper reality, and also as you have said, saw my ego as a problem to overcome.

Since then I have had some lessons which have been telling me to be here, and in this world and be me and what I am. The ego is not to be overcome, but just not to be seen as the only part of you.

Some may say that to become a billionaire requires a level of control over this world that rivals those of great yogis, especially to do so and hold on to yourself and not be lost in the shear power of such a process (as happens to many, who then mistake it as the only meaning).

To realise the deeper reality and have a desire to help others, and gain joy in everything that is around and the shear moment is great, but it may not be everyone's goal in this life. Nobody wants you to be selfless, imagine trying to help others if they are all selfless. We are all part of existence and in helping ourselves we do our best to help existence.

Also don't get lost in thinking that all must be pretty flowers and trees. There is beauty in decay, and destruction - these also are parts of nature.

I see it as experiencing the beauty of existence, but not by ceasing to exist and disappearing as a nothingness, but as laughing with all of your lungs and joining the dance - being a powerful part of the story, you are part of that nature and part of existance, and the best way to help the story is to improve your role - to believe otherwise is one of the great lies of Western society, that humans are outside of nature, that God is outside of us and outside of the world. This separation does not exist, and you are not just the observer.

Besides even on the most basic level, how can you help others if you do not help yourself first. Remember always secure your oxygen mask before helping others with theirs.
 
Thing is, I cannot let go of myself even if i accept myself, for in the back of my mind if it is assumed that accepting myself as I am will allow me let go of myself, it becomes a motive, and therefore a trick of the ego, another spiritual gimmick.
The master never needs recognition. Not even from himself.
I used to be into sungazing, crystals, orgonite, chanting, different kinds of meditation, all sorts of things in order to become ever more spiritually "realized".
But what haven't I learned?
I haven't learned it is only through exhausted attempts of trying, through experience in other words, that I find out that letting go of my ego cannot be done, because we are trying to get rid of the very thing doing the trying. We are going in circles, and this particular circle is the most vicious of all, because even when you think you've stopped trying, you discover that is a method in itself, and therefore still trying.

So, what am I saying?
Give it up. Give it all up. Anyone who tries to sell anything on how to improve you is to be ignored. All this is gimmicktry to sell you your own wallet. Spiritually, like the physical, are concepts. Is the real you a concept?
 
First, thank you to everyone that has replied, I have read and tried to take on each comment as much as possible. It has clarified some areas of confusion within my own mind :)


As long as there is seeking, it is driven by ego. That which you seek is always there. For it to shine forth, complete stillness, i.e. an end to seeking is required. Yet the ego is not different from it. The ego is simply the motion in it. Don't beat yourself up, relax.
Click to expand...

I think this is key, I am on a journey, I always have been, where it takes me does not matter, just enjoy the ride.

The story I enjoyed very much as well:)


3rdI, I agree, although I believe with less sense of self comes freedom.


And how to trim the ego? Using certain tools that might be available to you, but mostly it has to be something that humbles you, like psychedelic experiences, martial arts or other difficult endeavors which show you undeniably how much you are still just a beginner and still have to grow, etc .
Click to expand...

Yes, I am a beginner. The route I am going feels right and I will continue to trim where possible.


Happiness is your nature. It is not wrong to desire it. What is wrong is seeking it outside when it is inside.

Your own Self-Realization is the greatest service you can render the world.

~ Ramana Maharshi
Click to expand...

Thank you Swarupa, this has helped a lot!


Once one has found the ego-less vast "emptiness" inhering in reality, then part 2 of the process - the contemplative traditions say - is the "nondual" side: in which, one re-inhabits and embraces mundane, ordinary life with a greater, newfound vitality (in Buddhism, it is called the union of Nirvana and Samsara), and life becomes "lila" or "play" (Hinduism).
Click to expand...

I have felt/experienced something similar on two occasions now, carrying through into my 'normal' life for sometime, only until I forget what I knew. The memory remains but the knowing fades...

That's why it's often necessary to embed one's practice in a Sangha - a larger group of practitioners with greater experience that one's own - which puts in place a system of "checks and balances" on one's ego and practice.
Click to expand...

I feel there will be a time for this, for now it is a solitary trip. I will look into the reading you suggested zapped17, thanks.


Since then I have had some lessons which have been telling me to be here, and in this world and be me and what I am. The ego is not to be overcome, but just not to be seen as the only part of you.
Click to expand...

Part of me, wise enough to know I would forget, got a tattoo (my only one), to remind me of the duality and to keep to the course.

to believe otherwise is one of the great lies of Western society, that humans are outside of nature, that God is outside of us and outside of the world. This separation does not exist, and you are not just the observer.
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Well put friend. Thank you :)


We are going in circles, and this particular circle is the most vicious of all, because even when you think you've stopped trying, you discover that is a method in itself, and therefore still trying.

So, what am I saying?
Give it up. Give it all up. Anyone who tries to sell anything on how to improve you is to be ignored. All this is gimmicktry to sell you your own wallet. Spiritually, like the physical, are concepts. Is the real you a concept?
Click to expand...

It is hard, you are so right, not trying is trying in itself. I appreciate the sage advice :)

By real me are you referring to my being? It could be a concept of my mind, but experiencing it is more real than typing these words to you. But anything I think I 'know' I have to remind myself is never definite.
 
JD - you've actually got me thinking about these matters again. I just watched these two 10min clips on youtube wherein Ken Wilber (who I mentioned above) speaks about some things that I think might be relevant to this topic. I personally have found that much of what Wilber has said/written rings true - however, there are some people, it seems, that just don't dig the guy. I'll include the links below in the hopes you may find something worthwhile in them.



As the Buddha supposedly said (it's a quote attributed to him, at least), "Don't believe anything that doesn't agree with your own reason and common sense." That's a good way to go about things when assessing so called "spiritual teachers" or guidelines.
 
Haha, I can really see why some people don't like the guy. Doesn't bother me though, I found the little i, big I very intriguing and yes, there was worth in them :) Thank you.

Love
 
You've got a lot of good replies there.

Personally i say just be true to yourself, be nice to your family and friends. Do work you enjoy, and relax. Life will naturally provide you with enough challenges to inspire your spirit to express it's true nature.
Life is a gift, and you need to follow your own path, so do what makes your heart sing, as long as you do it with respect then thats cool.

Being a monk is easy. Becoming a millionaire requires hard work, or just good luck, or being psychopathic, greedy and selfish.

Don't worry about this ego stuff, live life, get dirty, face some demons, overcome them, and dont be afraid to have to do it all over again. Life is for living!
 
It's a really intriguing question...

Everyone has a different conception of what spirituality is. IMO, at its core, spirituality is trying to find meaning beyond physical reality. There can be sooooooooo many different motives for this. Certainly, I think a lot of these motives can be ego-driven... Spirituality corresponds to some degree to a sort of respect or whatever of wisenss or intelligence in a lot of different subcultures in many cultures/subcultures.

On the other side of the coin, I think many people who are seeking spirituality are doing so because they realize the faults of ego and are seeking to eradicate it from "their" lives. I don't personally feel that there is anything egocentric about seeking to obliterate ego...QUITE the opposite. Just think about it... Why on earth would a function of the ego be to destroy itself?

Being self-conscious about exploring spirituality, IMHO, is the most ego-centric part. Never be ashamaed of making an honest attempt at trying to understand the bugger picture.
 
anon_003 said:
Everyone has a different conception of what spirituality is.
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Indeed, to me, spirituality is not something to achieve or become, rather an ever presence, which is post-mind. Everything else, every believe, every new paradigm, every special practice, every what so ever, is more like an aspect of an esotheric idea instead.

tseuq
 
tseuq said:
anon_003 said:
Everyone has a different conception of what spirituality is.
Click to expand...

Indeed, to me, spirituality is not something to achieve or become, rather an ever presence, which is post-mind. Everything else, every believe, every new paradigm, every special practice, every what so ever, is more like an aspect of an esotheric idea instead.

tseuq
Click to expand...

Well said, tseuk.

Because we are already Spiritual beings, the term Spirituality usually refers to recognising this fact and as Endlessness says, 'trimmimng the ego', from time to time, and not getting too distracted from ones true nature, unless one wishes to fall under the spell of 'mob rule'.
 
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