stamets portobello controversy

[vlad665]

I dont know if this is the right place to start a discussion on this topic, if not, my bad, I appologise.
I watched an episode of Joe Rogan's podcast featuring the famous mycologist Paul Stamets. Mr. Stamets made a remark that sparked a great deal of controversy in both mycological circles and civil society regarding cultivated Agaricus species. He mentioned that he could not disclose exactly what is wrong with them because he feared for his life, noting that the mushroom cultivation industry is valued at over $2.5 billion.
Various theories emerged concerning a mycotoxin contained in this species called agaritine, a phenylhydrazine derivative with carcinogenic potential—though it is relatively easily neutralized through thermal treatment (cooking).
Being a bit of a stickler, I figured there must be something else at play, so I began scrutinizing everything I knew about the technological process of cultivating Agaricus. The history of the limestone caves near Paris in the early 18th century—the birthplace of this enterprise—set off some alarm bells in my head.
Then it clicked: the caves, and later, the modern structures where these species are grown. I am not a mycologist, but I have an appetite for anything related to mushrooms. I’m not a chemist either, but I have an affinity and curiosity for chemistry and pharmacology.
I remembered Radon (isotope 222), the gas that accumulates at ground level in unventilated spaces. Now, one could argue that in mushroom cultivation facilities this isn't an issue because ventilation systems exist. BUT, those ventilation systems are turned on during fruiting to ensure the oxygen flow necessary to trigger the process. This is not the case during mycelium incubation, which lasts about three weeks and requires high levels of carbon dioxide.
Radon-222 has a half-life of 3.82 days and decays into a cascade of radioactive isotopes: Polonium-218, Lead-214, Bismuth-214, Polonium-214, Lead-210, Bismuth-210, Polonium-210, and so on.
I mentioned my passion for mycology, right? I put together what I knew about mushroom cultivation with my modest knowledge of chemistry, and the logical conclusion was this: since mushroom mycelium is a bioaccumulator of heavy metals from the colonized substrate, it follows that during those three weeks of incubation, the mycelium accumulates all those isotopes.
I contacted a reputable Czech mycologist and asked if he had analyzed cultivated species; his answer was no. Analyses conducted to test for the bioaccumulation of radioactive isotopes have been limited to wild specimens and only for gamma radiation (the Cesium-137 isotope resulting from the Chernobyl and Fukushima accidents).
Polonium isotopes, on the other hand, are alpha radiation emitters, which go undetected by standard Geiger counters. The irony is that alpha radiation is harmless outside the body (it cannot penetrate the skin), but it is devastating if the source is inside you (bioaccumulated in the mushroom and ingested), basicly a silent killer.
Could this be the reason for Paul Stamets' silence? What do you guys think?

ps: i wrote this article in romanian, my native language, but translated it with the help of ai. sorry about that.

 

[Nydex]

Interesting speculation. So what is the idea here exactly? That consuming certain Agaricus species uncooked leads to a slow death via radiation poisoning? Or am I not reading this correctly?

 

[vlad665]

Interesting speculation. So what is the idea here exactly? That consuming certain Agaricus species uncooked leads to a slow death via radiation poisoning? Or am I not reading this correctly?

cooked or uncooked its the same. you cant eliminate alpha radiation particles. once pb210 isotope is established in a farming facility, after 22.3 years of exploitation it starts emitting polonium 210 isotope, undetectable by geiger counters, but a silent killer once it reaches your insides.
thays why i even came up with this hypothesis here on he forum, i know there are lads with access to high value labs that could test the theory with alpha spectrometry and liquid scintillation counting.
and now my reasoning expanded past myco farms to any indoor farming facility. idk about plant reign, i know about fungal one being an avid bioaccumulator of radioactive and heavy metals isotopes, but if plants work the same this could mean we eat poison day by day, which could also explain the spectacular rise of cancers we face nowadays vs 50 years ago when indoor farming was not as extensive nor global as it is in present moment

 

[bezevo]

if you LISTEN to that stamets talk on rogan /Stamets ...he clearly says " why theres a problem with the mushrooms and clearrly how to solve it " ,,

OP ..... just made up eeerr .....

OP i mean you have a personal idea about radiation you are speculating about ..... ..... ? ? ?

Again STAMETS said nothingh about radiation .

nor did he implyed anything about radiation ...??

listen to it again .. the op just came up with this idea ignoring what was said ...by stamets

Stamets ...........gave the problem and the solution ..

and then said he had been threatend about his opinion in the past and asked joe to move on .


no mystery .. listen to it again ....

 

[vlad665]

if you LISTEN to that stamets talk on rogan /Stamets ...he clearly says " why theres a problem with the mushrooms and clearrly how to solve it " ,,

OP ..... just made up eeerr .....

OP i mean you have a personal idea about radiation you are speculating about ..... ..... ? ? ?

Again STAMETS said nothingh about radiation .

nor did he implyed anything about radiation ...??

listen to it again .. the op just came up with this idea ignoring what was said ...by stamets

Stamets ...........gave the problem and the solution ..

and then said he had been threatend about his opinion in the past and asked joe to move on .


no mystery .. listen to it again ....

i never mentioned i am quoting stamets. this is my personal hypothesis after listening to that podcast where stamets threw the bone without discloing the issue he was talkimg about. the whole post, science data compilation or conspiration if this is your take on the subject, is my own thinking cascade and has nothing to do with rogan/stamets pair. i posted this hupothesis to /rmycology, only to be discarded by people who only saw those 2 names, rogan/stamets as if the whole rationale behind it is apriori wrong for simply stating that the carrot he threw in made me think about what danger was he refering to. Agaritine speculation was also debated and stemmed on online forums post his mention he cant disclose.
i posted here on the nexus knowing people here have a rather saner intelect than the purists on reddit that cant go pass personal people alergy, but i may have been wrong.
argue me with science not with personal dislikes o stamets/rogan who have nothing to do with this

 

[blig-blug]

Mr. Stamets made a remark that sparked a great deal of controversy in both mycological circles and civil society regarding cultivated Agaricus species. He mentioned that he could not disclose exactly what is wrong with them because he feared for his life, noting that the mushroom cultivation industry is valued at over $2.5 billion.

I know nothing about this, but it sounds to me like over the top dramatics. If his opinion were enough to harm the mushroom cultivation industry, saying what he said would already have had that effect. He talks against Big Pharma, a much bigger industry, and somehow that doesn't make him fear for his life.
In my opinion, this is very likely either some theater or some delusional belief that he's fallen into.

 

[vlad665]

I know nothing about this, but it sounds to me like over the top dramatics. If his opinion were enough to harm the mushroom cultivation industry, saying what he said would already have had that effect. He talks against Big Pharma, a much bigger industry, and somehow that doesn't make him fear for his life.
In my opinion, this is very likely either some theater or some delusional belief that he's fallen into.

i repeat for the last time, my hypothesis has nothing to do with stamets nor rogan. it is my own joining the dots from 3 disparsed disciplines and compiling a case study that highlights a potential major problem. Nothing to do with stamets. i only mentioned stamets as being the trigger that made me think lateraly. the questions i raised have never been answered so far, noone tested for bioacumulation of alpha emmiting particles in indoor cultivated fungis.

 

[blig-blug]

my hypothesis has nothing to do with stamets

It does, though: you are trying to figure out what Stamets may be talking about, and that has led you to explain it through a hypothesis of cultivated mushrooms emitting alpha radiation.

Could this be the reason for Paul Stamets' silence? What do you guys think?

I think there's an alternative explanation that's much more likely.

If you think that cultivated mushrooms may emit alpha radiation regardless of what Stamets may say, a better way to communicate that would be to leave Stamets and supposed risks to his life out of it.

Now, regardless of Stamets: why would there be radon where most mushrooms are cultivated nowadays? They aren't cultivated in caves or underground anymore, are they?

 

[vlad665]

It does, though: you are trying to figure out what Stamets may be talking about, and that has led you to explain it through a hypothesis of cultivated mushrooms emitting alpha radiation.

I think there's an alternative explanation that's much more likely.

If you think that cultivated mushrooms may emit alpha radiation regardless of what Stamets may say, a better way to communicate that would be to leave Stamets and supposed risks to his life out of it.

Now, regardless of Stamets: why would there be radon where most mushrooms are cultivated nowadays? They aren't cultivated in caves or underground anymore, are they?

no. nowadays these mushrooms are cultivated in production silos, some of these silos were built 50 years ago, some 30 years ago, and the biggest players in industry are located in high radon activity areas, such as pensylvania in the us, lombardia in northern italy or silezia in poland. radon is a gas that infiltrates into the facilities through concrete microcracks and once inside it starts its decayimg cascade till it reaches the po210 progeny. add this info to the fact that during the incubation period the ventilations are off to increase the co2 levels needed for mycelial growth, and the fact that fungi are the greediest bioaccumulators of heavy metals from the environment and tell me what your logic says?
i repeat myself for the last time, this is my speculation alone and has nothing to do with stamets. stamets only served as a spark that shifted my focus towards the industry, and from there i followed science and logic

 

[blig-blug]

no. nowadays these mushrooms are cultivated in production silos, some of these silos were built 50 years ago, some 30 years ago, and the biggest players in industry are located in high radon activity areas, such as pensylvania in the us, lombardia in northern italy or silezia in poland. radon is a gas that infiltrates into the facilities through concrete microcracks and once inside it starts its decayimg cascade till it reaches the po210 progeny. add this info to the fact that during the incubation period the ventilations are off to increase the co2 levels needed for mycelial growth, and the fact that fungi are the greediest bioaccumulators of heavy metals from the environment and tell me what your logic says?

That is interesting if true, but I don't think it's enough of a reason to think cultivated mushrooms may be contaminated with polonium. A way to get further evidence (in either direction) could be to get data on dietary mushroom consumption and cancer, and see if there is a correlation there, controlling for other factors. Another more direct way would be to eat a significant amount of mushrooms for several days and then send a urine sample to be analyzed for polonium content. That appears to be quite doable, and seemingly amounts of polonium well below hazardous amounts can be detected. Yet another way would be to ask to visit a mushroom cultivation facility and take with you a handheld radon detector.

i repeat myself for the last time, this is my speculation alone and has nothing to do with stamets

Your post ends asking the readers if they think that could be the reason for Stamets silence, so it's not off-topic to discuss that here. If you didn't want that to be discussed you shouldn't have asked about it. As it stands, I expect other people to give their view on it, which will be perfectly fine and on topic for a thread that explicitly asks about it.

 

[vlad665]

That is interesting if true, but I don't think it's enough of a reason to think cultivated mushrooms may be contaminated with polonium. A way to get further evidence (in either direction) could be to get data on dietary mushroom consumption and cancer, and see if there is a correlation there, controlling for other factors. Another more direct way would be to eat a significant amount of mushrooms for several days and then send a urine sample to be analyzed for polonium content. That appears to be quite doable, and seemingly amounts of polonium well below hazardous amounts can be detected. Yet another way would be to ask to visit a mushroom cultivation facility and take with you a handheld radon detector.


Your post ends asking the readers if they think that could be the reason for Stamets silence, so it's not off-topic to discuss that here. If you didn't want that to be discussed you shouldn't have asked about it. As it stands, I expect other people to give their view on it, which will be perfectly fine and on topic for a thread that explicitly asks about it.

okay it seems we are missing the forest from the trees. let me rephrase the whole point. ignore the first sentence that mentioned stamets. my bad, i apologise for stating this controversial name in the first place. i started hypothesising about bioacumulation of alpha emitting particles resulted from the decay of radon222 gas in mushroom cultivation in enclosed facilities.
regarding urine testing might give false negatives as pb210 and po210 have a great affinity for tissue and bone, thus the speculation that it may be eliminated through excretion is umplausible.
the testing should and must be done on mycelium and carpophores, along with a monitoring of a individual who regulary consumes comercialy grown mushrooms, idk, im not a physician, im not a physicist, nor a lab coat. thats for them to decide how the testing should be done
the sole purpose of the post was to raise awareness to a potential dangerous compound that was never taken into account in this industry, with the hope that some people with access to lab equipmemt could test the validity of my hypothesis. if proven false after testing, i bow, i only bow to science and hard data, if proven right, the said scientists that may had done the testing can claim the credits for their find, i could care less who gets what out of it, i only try to fimd the truth through hard data and science and thats all

 

[blig-blug]

my bad, i apologise for stating this controversial name in the first place

No need to apologize, it's not anything bad. It's just people may want to talk about that too. If you're not interested in such discussion you can just ignore that side, it's completely fine. There's no problem.

Going back to the main topic, there seems to be some studies about this topic. I'm sure there are more as I didn't look too hard for them. It looks like a good starting point. Here are two that didn't find dangerously high levels of radioactive isotopes in cultivated mushrooms, but that doesn't mean that that's not found in mushrooms cultivated elsewhere. I also found some papers on the radon levels inside the tunnels in northern Italy that you mention. So a good first step would be to gather as much existing literature on the topic, and go on from there. It is an interesting topic, so thank you for bringing it up. I knew nothing about it.

 

[vlad665]

No need to apologize, it's not anything bad. It's just people may want to talk about that too. If you're not interested in such discussion you can just ignore that side, it's completely fine. There's no problem.

Going back to the main topic, there seems to be some studies about this topic. I'm sure there are more as I didn't look too hard for them. It looks like a good starting point. Here are two that didn't find dangerously high levels of radioactive isotopes in cultivated mushrooms, but that doesn't mean that that's not found in mushrooms cultivated elsewhere. I also found some papers on the radon levels inside the tunnels in northern Italy that you mention. So a good first step would be to gather as much existing literature on the topic, and go on from there. It is an interesting topic.

actually no. i believe you are making a confusion between what gamma radiation is vs alpha radiation. gama is easely pointed with a simple geiger counter while alpha isnt. alpha emitting particles can only be determined via alpha spectrometry or liquid scintillation counting. while the study is titled metal and radionuclide accumulation of some cultivated mushrooms, its methodology and results focus almost exclusively on gamma-emitting radionuclides and heavy metals. the alpha emitting particles is a dead angle science failed to adress yet. i kept scanning databases on all known reputable scientiffic hubs searching for the one study that adresses radon decay progenies and failed to find it

 

[blig-blug]

i believe you are making a confusion between what gamma radiation is vs alpha radiation

You are right, I didn't look at it carefully enough. Still, it's worth to look into what has been published, even if only to find it lacking. They may also contain indirectly relevant information, or point towards more relevant papers. You have an interesting and plausible hypothesis, and the next logical step is a literature review.

Here's another one that seems interesting, they do look at polonium and other isotopes and find levels higher than the reference, although in wild mushrooms, not cultivated.
I'm also attaching the Italy tunnels radon levels one.

 

[Nydex]

How difficult would it be to send a sample to a lab that has alpha spectrometry and have them test it? That would confirm or deny the hypothesis at once either way, so all this speculation and bickering can be avoided

 

[blig-blug]

How difficult would it be to send a sample to a lab that has alpha spectrometry and have them test it? That would confirm or deny the hypothesis at once either way, so all this speculation and bickering can be avoided

Depending on the price (I don't know how much it may be), it could be worth it to gather more evidence and see how likely it seems. I agree what you suggest, or a urine sample after eating many cultivated mushrooms for several days, would be the most direct way to get good evidence.

 

[vlad665]

You are right, I didn't look at it carefully enough. Still, it's worth to look into what has been published, even if only to find it lacking. They may also contain indirectly relevant information, or point towards more relevant papers. You have an interesting and plausible hypothesis, and the next logical step is a literature review.

Here's another one that seems interesting, they do look at polonium and other isotopes and find levels higher than the reference, although in wild mushrooms, not cultivated.
I'm also attaching the Italy tunnels radon levels one.

Bingo!

Concentrations of 210Pb and 210Po have also been determined in mushrooms... The concentration of 210Po (the killer) was, in general, higher than that of 210Pb.

the study was done on wild specimens, a condition that is milder in the sence outside there are air currents that do not allow for dangerous accumulation levels an enclosed/unventilated space does

 

[vlad665]

Depending on the price (I don't know how much it may be), it could be worth it to gather more evidence and see how likely it seems. I agree what you suggest, or a urine sample after eating many cultivated mushrooms for several days, would be the most direct way to get good evidence.

urine testing may not show relevant results. these particles have a high binding affinity to tissue/bones.

 

[blig-blug]

urine testing may not show relevant results. these particles have a high binding affinity to tissue/bones.

This page (the German Federal Office for Radiation Protection) is not loading for me right now, it seems to be having some server issues. But before it did, and it said that the best way to detect Polonium exposure in humans is through urine samples, and that it's possible to detect amounts well below those that suppose any health risk. So unless I'm missing something, that seems to be the way (other than analyzing mushrooms themselves).

Edit: now it works.

Because polonium-210 only emits alpha radiation it cannot be detected by a whole body counter. For this reason, stool or urine samples need to be analysed in order to detect the incorporation of polonium. It is easier to detect the incorporation in urine samples than in stool samples. The limit of detection for polonium-210 in urine is so low that polonium in the body can already be detected far below the levels at which health effects are expected to occur.

 

[vlad665]

here, i found this study to be relevant to my hypothesis.
been reading papers the whole day
and the study points out workers being exposed to such alpha emitting radiation source for the duration of a day, values 18 times higher than what is considered safe. so logic points out that this exposure is significantly relevant to the mycelial mass that turns into carpophores and end up in our bellies

https://inis.iaea.org/records/0v1wh-fhe46/files/39016825.pdf