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What joedirt wrote makes sense to me, what you have doesn't--if you accept that one can make a choice then it seems obvious that the outcome of whatever the choice is being made about is undetermined until that choice is made, which sounds like free will to me. (at this point I haven't seen your reply to the demonstration of why your logic regarding the inconsequentialness of determinism with respect to free will, although I suspect it is going to be a matter of faith ad not logical)

I don't know about your dog, but my cat appears to have free will--sometimes it goes up the bush after the bird, sometimes it doesn't, and its actions do not appear to correlate with anything in the environment. Ditto for: whether it sleeps on the bed with me, or not; eats or walks away from a flavour of food; etc.

No. I can download the source code for ~98% of the software on my system and both see and alter both the branch points and conditions that affect the flow of the program. There is nothing the program can do which hasn't been pre-determined by the programmer, or myself if I choose to alter it.

I don't know. If there is such a thing as `plant spirits' then they may have free will, otherwise it seems most likely that they are responding to something in the environment such as moisture or nutrients or hormones or perhaps even random quantum fluctuations in whatever it is that stimulates plant cell growth. The only thing we can say for sure about plants is that they appear to be determined to grow if the environment is suitable.

No. For pretty much the same reason that computers don't, the only difference is that their programming is hardwired at some point (specifically, at the sensor)

You are taking "choose" out of context and turning it into something far to simplistic for any meaningful conclusions to be drawn.

Sorry if I appear to be picking on you, nothing personal, you just happen to have invoked "logic" as a basis for your argument and that is something I just happen to know about. Since you've been pretty clear about where you stand on the issue of free will I think it is fair that I should come clean...

I believe I have free will because I have chosen to make both "good" and "bad" decisions in both my self-interest and the interest of others in situations where I am aware of the consequences of my actions. It really is a matter of faith though because for all I know I could be a figment of some enlightened or supreme being's imagination, or maybe you are a figment of my imagination and I'll wake up to find someone asking me if I had any good dreams.

<blockquote data-quote="Tsehakla" data-source="post: 3449712" data-attributes="member: 9653">What joedirt wrote makes sense to me, what you have doesn&#039;t--if you accept that one can make a choice then it seems obvious that the outcome of whatever the choice is being made about is undetermined until that choice is made, which sounds like free will to me. (at this point I haven&#039;t seen your reply to the demonstration of why your logic regarding the inconsequentialness of determinism with respect to free will, although I suspect it is going to be a matter of faith ad not logical)I don&#039;t know about your dog, but my cat appears to have free will--sometimes it goes up the bush after the bird, sometimes it doesn&#039;t, and its actions do not appear to correlate with anything in the environment. Ditto for: whether it sleeps on the bed with me, or not; eats or walks away from a flavour of food; etc.No. I can download the source code for ~98% of the software on my system and both see and alter both the branch points and conditions that affect the flow of the program. There is nothing the program can do which hasn&#039;t been pre-determined by the programmer, or myself if I choose to alter it.I don&#039;t know. If there is such a thing as `plant spirits&#039; then they may have free will, otherwise it seems most likely that they are responding to something in the environment such as moisture or nutrients or hormones or perhaps even random quantum fluctuations in whatever it is that stimulates plant cell growth. The only thing we can say for sure about plants is that they appear to be determined to grow if the environment is suitable.No. For pretty much the same reason that computers don&#039;t, the only difference is that their programming is hardwired at some point (specifically, at the sensor)You are taking &quot;choose&quot; out of context and turning it into something far to simplistic for any meaningful conclusions to be drawn.Sorry if I appear to be picking on you, nothing personal, you just happen to have invoked &quot;logic&quot; as a basis for your argument and that is something I just happen to know about. Since you&#039;ve been pretty clear about where you stand on the issue of free will I think it is fair that I should come clean...I believe I have free will because I have chosen to make both &quot;good&quot; and &quot;bad&quot; decisions in both my self-interest and the interest of others in situations where I am aware of the consequences of my actions.&nbsp; It really is a matter of faith though because for all I know I could be a figment of some enlightened or supreme being&#039;s imagination, or maybe you are a figment of my imagination and I&#039;ll wake up to find someone asking me if I had any good dreams.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tsehakla, post: 3449712, member: 9653"] What joedirt wrote makes sense to me, what you have doesn't--if you accept that one can make a choice then it seems obvious that the outcome of whatever the choice is being made about is undetermined until that choice is made, which sounds like free will to me. (at this point I haven't seen your reply to the demonstration of why your logic regarding the inconsequentialness of determinism with respect to free will, although I suspect it is going to be a matter of faith ad not logical) I don't know about your dog, but my cat appears to have free will--sometimes it goes up the bush after the bird, sometimes it doesn't, and its actions do not appear to correlate with anything in the environment. Ditto for: whether it sleeps on the bed with me, or not; eats or walks away from a flavour of food; etc. No. I can download the source code for ~98% of the software on my system and both see and alter both the branch points and conditions that affect the flow of the program. There is nothing the program can do which hasn't been pre-determined by the programmer, or myself if I choose to alter it. I don't know. If there is such a thing as `plant spirits' then they may have free will, otherwise it seems most likely that they are responding to something in the environment such as moisture or nutrients or hormones or perhaps even random quantum fluctuations in whatever it is that stimulates plant cell growth. The only thing we can say for sure about plants is that they appear to be determined to grow if the environment is suitable. No. For pretty much the same reason that computers don't, the only difference is that their programming is hardwired at some point (specifically, at the sensor) You are taking "choose" out of context and turning it into something far to simplistic for any meaningful conclusions to be drawn. Sorry if I appear to be picking on you, nothing personal, you just happen to have invoked "logic" as a basis for your argument and that is something I just happen to know about. Since you've been pretty clear about where you stand on the issue of free will I think it is fair that I should come clean... I believe I have free will because I have chosen to make both "good" and "bad" decisions in both my self-interest and the interest of others in situations where I am aware of the consequences of my actions. It really is a matter of faith though because for all I know I could be a figment of some enlightened or supreme being's imagination, or maybe you are a figment of my imagination and I'll wake up to find someone asking me if I had any good dreams. [/QUOTE]