Teas during Water Fast?

[Chan]

I just decided to try out a 3-day water fast for the first time.

I’d read Stephen Buhner’s excellent “The Transformative Power of Fasting” a while back, and now seemed a good time to try it.

It’s cold here, and I quickly got fed up of plain water, so I started to mix in some simple non-caffeine herbal teas: plain chamomile, hibiscus & lemon balm leaves, not the OTT packaged crap. Oh, and a sachet of 'Instant Cordyceps' which tasted amazingly savory...

Buhner includes teas as part of juice fasts, but not so far as I could tell, water fasts, and I was curious to know if they really “compromised” the power of a water-only fast.

Online, it was like stepping into the anti-Nexus! Many loud, fanatical, extreme-sounding types boldly declaring all sorts of hogwash, without the faintest attempt at supporting their sometimes bizarre assertions.

My position is that a tea is >99% water, with a minute amount of a large number of bio-compounds, and barely a single calorie of energy/carbs, if that… However, the general position of the hardcore seems to be that any tea ‘prevents’ the digestive system shutting down fully, but I really think they have no idea how the liver actually works.

I’m not a liver specialist either, but my take is that it’s essentially analogous to a CPU. It’s capable of around 500 functions, most of which usually relate to digestion, because that’s the usual source of the greatest number of inputs/threads. When you stop eating, this demand decreases, and it then has more resources to devote to other functions i.e. the ones described as the benefits of fasting. Against this background, a mug of tea, with a few milligrams of whatever, probably doesn’t hog the processor too much. I went for a bike-ride, put some sunscreen on, and probably swallowed a bit of dust, maybe even a bug or two. The sunscreen, dust and bugs would also find their way to my liver, and had I been purely water-fasting, would they have ‘activated’ my digestive system and thereby ‘invalidated’ the water fast?

To be clear, I can see how juice, with it’s sugar and carbs, prevents ketosis occurring, and really is a different ball-game, but tea, I’m not so sure…

Anyway, to sum up, the fast was much easier than I expected. I did think about food a fair bit, from time to time, but I didn’t get the angry physical pangs I was anticipating. I did seclude myself, which made things easier. Having just finished, I do feel recharged, and the minor illness I was dealing with seems to have taken a good kicking, so yeah, all in all, highly recommended. I would like to do a longer fast in future, but thought I’d try and get to the bottom of the tea-or-no-tea conundrum while it was all still fresh in my mind.

I’d be keen to hear any other thoughts on this…

Peace.

 

[Psilociraptor]

Liver? Your liver definitely aids digestion, but it seems odd you've honed in on this organ. Anyways, tea like all plant derived materials does possess an array of bioactive compounds and it's very likely they interact with your digestive tract, though to what extent depends on the tea itself and how much you drink. It really depends what you're trying to get out of this fast. Nothing is going to activate your digestive system like steak and potatoes but if you really want to be a purist about it you should be aware that plant extracts (which is essentially what tea is) are not biologically inert

 

[Chan]

Thanks, but I haven't honed in on the liver. The "water fast community" have honed in on it. As I said, I'm aware of the bio-active compounds in tea, their effects, and their general route through the body. My question is whether a 'tea fast' is actually equivalent to a 'water fast' despite what a bunch of clueless ex-bodybuilders and flaky New Agers widely assert to be 'the truth'.

As with so many things, fasting sits on a continuum which runs from the scientifically sound to the outrageously stupid. I'm just trying to locate its position with a degree of accuracy.

 

[Psilociraptor]

I guess I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for. What i said answers your question... Will they be equivalent? The answer is no. Drinking tea is not the same as drinking water. You will be absorbing a number of compounds exerting direct influence on your body as well as microflora control which will inevitably alter your metabolic and immune status. Life is not all about what your liver can process. We share genetic origins with every species on this planet and as such the compounds they produce are often similar enough to our own to have complex modulatory effects on tissue systems and immunological/neurological/endocrine function. They do not simply pass through the liver and exit our bodies with no effect.

Whether a tea fast or water fast is preferable depends what you're trying to get out of it and I'm not sure there is enough data out there to say anything with any certainty. To your credit though I highly doubt those people criticizing you have the data to back that criticism up. I'll gladly eat my words if they do, but the human body is so enormously complex and every person in a unique state of health that it's really hard to apply such generalities in this case as to which is better. Scientists are still struggling to hash out the details of what foods are healthy, i don't think anyone has put nearly as much effort into proving the benefits of a water fast over a tea fast.

If you're just trying to cut calories or ease up on digestion tea would be fine. If you want to to be a purist and see what your body does in the absence of it's bare necessities for immediate survival, go with water. Or if you're trying to re sensitize your taste buds go with water

This is an interesting topic though. I've got quite the bacterial overgrowth in my colon and resulting autoimmunity. Never considered fasting :?

 

[Chan]

i don't think anyone has put nearly as much effort into proving the benefits of a water fast over a tea fast.

That's probably the nub of the matter. Sorry to hear about your condition, fasting is believed to assist in many auto-immune disorders, so if you want to see a reasonable summary of fasting, have a look here. It's taken from the book I mentioned, and I have a lot of respect for the author, from his other books, many of which deal with how

We share genetic origins with every species on this planet and as such the compounds they produce are often similar enough to our own to have complex modulatory effects on tissue systems and immunological/neurological/endocrine function.

This has been used in the Ayurvedic system for at least a few thousand years, and is reputed to have strongly beneficial effects on gut microflora. It's available in any Indian/Asian grocery store, and is mandatory when cooking pulses!

 

[Psilociraptor]

Interesting! I will look into both. Thank you very much. I've been taking berberine and can tell somethings dying. Improvement seems minimal, though visible. The one you posted looks interesting as well though

 

[Chan]

You're very welcome. Berberine is very good for the digestive tract, Syrian Rue also... Not to keep harping on about Buhner, but he also wrote "Herbal Antibiotics" which is an excellent reference book.

 

[Psilociraptor]

You're very welcome. Berberine is very good for the digestive tract, Syrian Rue also... Not to keep harping on about Buhner, but he also wrote "Herbal Antibiotics" which is an excellent reference book.

Oh neat i'll definitely give that a look. You seem knowledgeable. Have you come across in your reading on anything pertaining specifically to e. coli? Pretty sure that's what I'm dealing with based on labs and I've definitely found that some herbals are more potent in the die off effects that they cause so i'd love to find something particularly effective against e coli if such a thing even exist

 

[Chan]

Thanks, but I doubt I'm any more knowledgeable than anybody else here

I think you should get the book, you won't be disappointed. He goes into E. Coli in some detail, incl. the different strains (O157, ST131 and B2) and the different regimens, and alternatives.

For E. Coli alone, he starts with the berberines, but goes on to list 17 alternatives, and various synergies, and I think it's best if you were to select from them, taking your own knowledge and symptoms into account. Ineffective suggestions could lead to increased resistance...! And of course, the rules prohibit such advice anyway.

In the meantime, here's another thread you might find interesting: Antibiotic Properties of Harmalas in Caapi/Syrian Rue - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Best of luck!

 

[Swarupa]

I doubt herbal teas would prevent ketosis but the flavors and substances in the tea could trigger hunger pangs, also it's nice to fast from flavors/tastes as it makes breaking the fast that much more satisfying.

I tend to only take some water during a fast, although i'm also interested in juice fasting. I'm currently on day 4 of a water fast which is the longest i've fasted so far, apart from some lethargy and food smelling amazing it's going well, good to see that you feel fasting benefited you.

 

[Chan]

Thank you, Swarupa, that's what I was hoping to hear...

I see your point about abstaining from flavours, to intensify the "breakthrough", but for my first fast, I found them a reassuring handrail...I'm all about the Middle Way :thumb_up:

Enjoy every moment of yours.

 

[Psilociraptor]

Thanks, but I doubt I'm any more knowledgeable than anybody else here

I think you should get the book, you won't be disappointed. He goes into E. Coli in some detail, incl. the different strains (O157, ST131 and B2) and the different regimens, and alternatives.

For E. Coli alone, he starts with the berberines, but goes on to list 17 alternatives, and various synergies, and I think it's best if you were to select from them, taking your own knowledge and symptoms into account. Ineffective suggestions could lead to increased resistance...! And of course, the rules prohibit such advice anyway.

In the meantime, here's another thread you might find interesting: Antibiotic Properties of Harmalas in Caapi/Syrian Rue - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Best of luck!

Cool I'm on a book buying binge anyways so I'll add that to my list 8)

 

[Auxin]

I doubt herbal teas would prevent ketosis...

I wouldnt be so quick to doubt that.
I've done some fasting and I've tracked my urinary pH on fasts. When I had an unsweetened black cup of decaf coffee (not that far from tea) early in a fast my body took longer to switch to ketogenic metabolism. With nothing but water straight from the beginning I went into ketosis quite quickly.

Not only will tea stimulate appetite and supply a few food calories, it will act as an irritant to the gastric mucosa, not allowing it to get the rest that is central to an absolute fast. Also, pharmacologically active substances tend to be more potent when fasting, that includes phytochemicals in herbal teas. It could even disrupt the redox portion of metabolism from going into fasting mode by supplying exogenous antioxidants.

My longest fast was 12 days, water only. I found that hot water was easier to be satisfied with. It just tastes better than room temp or cool water. And if you go beyond 3 days and into prolonged fasts you probably will appreciate the heat for its own sake too, lol.

Remember to break fasts carefully. The longer the fast the more careful you have to be, with long fasts usually being broken with a day of juice followed by a day of small portions of soft foods.
If you plan to go into a long fast be careful what you eat in the days before the fast. Your last meals will just sit there loosing water and getting more dense for weeks, lol. It feels pretty wild having juice and fruit surging around the old stuff when you break the fast- like a hundred 5 year olds running screaming past an 80 year old.

Edit to say that the books by Herbert Shelton are off copyright and public domain now. You can find a few in the 'soil and health' library. This was a good book by him on fasting. [I just loved his fascination with the alaskan fur seal bull :lol: ]

 

[Chan]

That book looks quite special, thanks Auxin. I hear your reservations, too. My OP was prompted by similar concerns.

For now I'm happy to assume that water>tea>juice. Does that sound reasonable?

 

[Auxin]

With juice it wouldnt ever really be a fast, it would be more like a diet.
In fasting there is a fundamental shift in metabolism designed to prolong survival and increase healing that just wont happen if consuming juice. There have been many cases of people who starved to death on things like juice or broth where they would have survived an absolute fast of the same length.

 

[Chan]

Not disputing the logic, but

There have been many cases of people who starved to death on things like juice or broth where they would have survived an absolute fast of the same length.

is quite a claim, at least without references...

 

[Auxin]

Admittedly I didnt keep track of references for cases like that since it didnt surprise me, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt (or a glass of warm water if your fasting :lol: ) but if you think about it it makes perfect sense.
In the fasted state your metabolism goes into protein-sparing mode, reducing the catabolism of muscle tissue for energy thus increasing the length of time you can break down superfluous muscle tissue for energy and nutrients before going into starvation mode whereby the vital organs are digested. The fasted state also reduces body heat generation and makes the body actively seek out expendable tissues (like fibroids, cycts, and atheromas), expendable cells (like damaged and inefficient immune cells), and expendable cellular organelles (damaged mitochondria, etc.). It also stops producing digestive enzymes and stops the digestive process, saving tons of energy. Basically the body is like 'shit, I might be in trouble' and goes as close to hibernation as a human can get.
Conversely, in the fed state (even just juice) none of that can happen. The muscles of the digestive tract keep pumping, the digestive enzymes keep flowing, lots of blood and immune cells are sent to the intestines to digest whatever is ingested. If the food is insufficient you also digest your fat and protein stores, but not in the conservative 'emergency' mode.

You can read more depth on some of these issues in books by experts like Herbert Shelton and the much more modern book by Dr. Joel Fuhrman. I would hope no one attempts prolonged fasts without reading many volumes on the subject anyway.

 

[Chan]

Conversely, in the fed state (even just juice) none of that can happen. The muscles of the digestive tract keep pumping, the digestive enzymes keep flowing, lots of blood and immune cells are sent to the intestines to digest whatever is ingested.

And this is what spurred my OP, because I really struggle to believe that a cup of weak herbal infusion, every 4 hours or so, keeps "the digestive tract pumping and enzymes flowing". And if so, what about the bugs, dirt and sunscreen too? Or my partner's saliva, when we kiss? The envelope I lick...? Pollen I inhale? These are all "alien" to my immune and digestive systems, and therefore a burden, but would they really compromise the modality of a water-fast and fire-up all the usual machinery?

I need to read more, I think. But outside of an infection control tent, I think it is pretty near impossible to guarantee that the only things going into my body are H2O, some atmospheric gases, and no other organic molecules whatsoever.

 

[Auxin]

You are correct, there certainly is some minimum threshold below which tiny amounts of organic matter would not be enough to break a fast.
Juice can break or prevent a fast, and is one of the most common ways to break a fast.
I havent a clue if dilute herbal tea would prevent or delay the onset of a fast. I'd love to know the answer too, to date I havent found any scientific data that examines the extreme low of nutrient intake and its effects on fasting. There are still very strong taboos about fasting in the west and that influences research quite a lot.
Its also possible it might vary from person to person.

I do know that if I needed a therapeutic fast, like if I got the flu or something, I would personally not chance it and go straight to water-only. But I'd just do that as a reasonable gamble. Tea isnt so good that I'd risk several extra days of flu, lol.

You could get some higher resolution pH papers in the 4-8 range and experiment. pH papers from china are cheap on ebay, just be prepared to wait 5 weeks for delivery.
When my body shifts into fasting metabolism my urinary pH abruptly drops from pH 6.75-7.25 to pH 5.5 and stays there throughout the fast. Individual pH ranges vary based on diet and genetics, which I think is why the books just vaguely say that the urine becomes 'more acid' in a fast.