Tek recommendations for attempted evodia fruit 5meo extraction

[ms_manic_minxx]

Is there anyone active here who is wise in the ways of 5meo? I want to try to extract evodia for 5meo. Would Jorkest's bufotenine tek work? Are there any teks here anyone would recommend? Petrochemicals are a no go for my situation.

I have the time right now and the materials, and would be happy to share all results for the team. My goal, if nothing else, is to get a full spectrum extraction that could be worked into lozenges for sublingual use.

I have everclear, acetone, and limonene. I'm thinking about doing pulls with all three.

Does anyone think the d-limo to FASW/FASA might be worth a go?

I. Just. Suck. at chemistry. I want to keep things food grade and would be super grateful for a nudge in the right direction. I appreciate you!

I have textbooks on Chinese medicine affirming the presence of 5meo in the fruit. Found some data about 5 metabolizing to bufo in the stomach, and the "toxic" symptomology associated with evodia overdose tracks eerily with oral bufo administration. If I can't get pure 5 with food grade teks, I think sublingual would be a great way to mitigate toxicity. If this yields results, I'll go the extra mile and scan up everything from all the books about evodia. There are recipes for "overdose" and tons of peer reviewed data about how the plant affects everything in the body.

 

[Transform]

Firstly, I'd like to echo some fairly recent comments - how good it has been to see you back here again after your extended period of absence, especially in light of the health concerns you were having back then. You were often in my thoughts during your absence from the forum, so it is particularly uplifting to hear your testimony of the positive role that sacred plants have played in your health journey.

Onwards to the question in hand, I see you've been attempting to find answers here regarding evodia for nearly a month now. @Jan e Kharabat may have posted a few things about 5-MeO-DMT purification, albeit not from evodia fruits.

The trouble with making an ethanolic tincture and evaporating it down to a concetrate is that this would be likely to concentrate the emetic components of the evodia as well. The concentrate might be a good place to start with further purification steps; I even have some evodia fruit of my own so, were I not bogged down with a bunch of other stuff, it would in principle be possible for me to have a try with some of these methods myself.

For ease of reference, I'm placing the links here to your previous instances of asking this question. You appear to have done a considerable amount of background reading, so I'll be having a look through your posts to see if I can add anything more specifically useful.

D-limo & FASW/FASA for attempted 5meo pull?

https://forum.dmt-nexus.me/threads/jorkests-d-limonene-bufotenine-extraction-tek.301398/ Is this a potentially viable tek to attempt on a plant source of 5meo?

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Guidance re: evodia extraction

Calling Dorge, Shiva13 and Kushman if you still post here! You two were the only Nexians who posted success stories with evodia, albeit years ago. Dorge said: STB with Evodia Rutaecarpa for 5meoDMT? - Bufotenine and 5-MeO-DMT - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus Well SWIM has smoked the fruits quite a...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

Pulling 5meo from evodia & potential oxidation

Calling Dorge, Shiva13 and Kushmaster if you still post here! You three were the only Nexians who posted success stories with evodia, albeit years ago. I have obtained some extremely high quality evodia fruits and everclear. Both were expensive and are in limited supply, so I have to make wise...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

A little voice is nagging at me that you might need to try preparative paper chromatography (another of my stalled projects); even plain TLC would be useful as a preliminary test for establishing whether it would even be worth your while to proceed with an extraction - or did you say that you've definitively found activity with the experiential method, and it appears to be relatively free from unpleasant side-effects?

 

[Jan e Kharabat]

I think FASA and D-limo/benzoic acid could both work. The fumarate, if it forms, can be snorted for a quick bioassay (5meo doesn't hurt as much as DMT, I would say it's quite bearable) and the benzoate can be snorted or vaporized. Sublingual route requires larger dose, hence it's not suitable if you just want to establish the presence of a substance and if you are working with unknown and likely very small quantities.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

I'm glad to see everyone here too There is nothing else close to this community out there, and it's aging like fine wine.

The trouble with making an ethanolic tincture and evaporating it down to a concetrate is that this would be likely to concentrate the emetic components of the evodia

My hypothesis is that not all of the emetic components are sublingually active, and I'm willing to paint the walls with my barf if I'm wrong Coptidis rhizoma is an antidote, and there are other recipes for other antidotes in my texts. I agree with you that full spectrum is absolutely not ideal, but I wonder about ROA.

A little voice is nagging at me that you might need to try preparative paper chromatography (another of my stalled projects); even plain TLC would be useful as a preliminary test for establishing whether it would even be worth your while to proceed with an extraction - or did you say that you've definitively found activity with the experiential method, and it appears to be relatively free from unpleasant side-effects?

Unfortunately, I do not have access to a lab. All of my TCM textbooks list evodia as affirmatively containing 5meo and warn of hallucinations at high doses. They list all the compounds in the fruit and it doesn't contain anything else psychoactive. The emesis is discussed in regards to water decoctions administered orally. Unfortunately, no text mentions the total alkaloid content.

I think FASA and D-limo/benzoic acid could both work. The fumarate, if it forms, can be snorted for a quick bioassay (5meo doesn't hurt as much as DMT, I would say it's quite bearable) and the benzoate can be snorted or vaporized. Sublingual route requires larger dose, hence it's not suitable if you just want to establish the presence of a substance and if you are working with unknown and likely very small quantities.

Thank you so much for giving me a place to start I'm going to jump right in with d-limo.

Evodia Fruit Extraction Experiment - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

There is loads of conflicting data about total alkaloid content. Unsulphered fruits, which are less common, are not very shelf stable. There is talk in the above thread of yields as high as .2%, which would be a miracle. I have the top shelf unsulphered fruits that are pretty fresh

@Jan e Kharabat While I have you here, do you think there is any risk that it may have oxidized? And would this affect doing a pull with d-limo?

 

[Jan e Kharabat]

I'm glad to see everyone here too There is nothing else close to this community out there, and it's aging like fine wine.

My hypothesis is that not all of the emetic components are sublingually active, and I'm willing to paint the walls with my barf if I'm wrong Coptidis rhizoma is an antidote, and there are other recipes for other antidotes in my texts. I agree with you that full spectrum is absolutely not ideal, but I wonder about ROA.



Unfortunately, I do not have access to a lab. All of my TCM textbooks list evodia as affirmatively containing 5meo and warn of hallucinations at high doses. They list all the compounds in the fruit and it doesn't contain anything else psychoactive. The emesis is discussed in regards to water decoctions administered orally. Unfortunately, no text mentions the total alkaloid content.



Thank you so much for giving me a place to start I'm going to jump right in with d-limo.

Evodia Fruit Extraction Experiment - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

There is loads of conflicting data about total alkaloid content. Unsulphered fruits, which are less common, are not very shelf stable. There is talk in the above thread of yields as high as .2%, which would be a miracle. I have the top shelf unsulphered fruits that are pretty fresh

@Jan e Kharabat While I have you here, do you think there is any risk that it may have oxidized? And would this affect doing a pull with d-limo?

5meo is actually quite stable. DMT changes color over time and turns more orange/red, which may be due to oxidation, but 5meo stays the same. I had a weird case where the freebase would be clear white but the salts would come out reddish and with some loss of yield, but I won't attribute this to simple oxidation. Whether it oxidizes more under strong basic conditions, that I cannot really say, but it is a possibility. So, you could use CaOH insteadof NaOH, or even Sodium Carbonate if you are extracting again from an alcohol/water extract.

I can think of the following methods:

- Perform a dry tek, basify with CaOH, moisten, dry, and pull either with limonene and then backsalt, or directly with acetone, dry the acetone over a dessicant, and do FASA
- Make a water extract, evap the water, mix the remaining substance with sodium carbonate and extract using limonene or acetone.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

Make a water extract, evap the water, mix the remaining substance with sodium carbonate and extract using limonene or acetone.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy That’s awesome to know it’s stable too.

Will realistically be back with results in 1-2 weeks, stay tuned

 

[Transform]

Unfortunately, I do not have access to a lab.

Fortunately, simple chromatography is entirely kitchen friendly (in my view - although I do treat my kitchen a bit like a lab. What's the difference? )

My hypothesis is that not all of the emetic components are sublingually active, and I'm willing to paint the walls with my barf if I'm wrong

Thanks for the LOL!
It looks like a simple extraction should help you side-step that eventuality anyhow. Evodia rutaecarpa/Tetradium rutaecarpum (or ruticarpum) has quite the long list of components so it may be helpful to find out which of them are even present in significant quantities as well as which of these might be responsible for the emetic effects. Volume 2 of "The Encyclopedia of Psychoactive plants" by Rätsch and Berger has a reasonable amount of information on this plant. I'd be happy to copy out the references for you if necessary.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

@Transform If it's not too much trouble, I would really appreciate it!

 

[Transform]

@Transform If it's not too much trouble, I would really appreciate it!

OK, if a photo's good for you, that would be the quickest way. Might have to wait for daylight for best results. Btw, what TCM book do you have? Evodia Wu Shu Yu appears to be something that would be very helpful for me at present, according to "Jade Remedies".

It's also worthy of note, and somewhat relates to your experience with chiric sanango, that Park et al. (1996) showed that dihydroevodiamine can reverse hyoscine (scopolamine)-induced amnesia, and is an AchE inhibitor in vitro.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

So evodia likely binds to M1 and blocks delirium too. And it contains tryptamines? How convenient, I wonder what on earth this plant could possibly want us to use it for?? I'm very interested in reconstructing all the formulas that DIDN'T make it into textbooks.

I find this weird too, Syrian Rue is oddly absent from the TCM materia medica (when it contains plants from all over the world in it - no way this wasn't known). It has a cousin that pops up in research papers from time to time, but there is so little information about it. That's a digression I'll save for later, will be moving somewhere I will have more access to all of this soon.

I was planning on posting pictures of all the information about evodia that I have, just haven't stripped exif data before so have to brush up on the old opsec.

www.americandragon.com is an awesome resource for medical information about Chinese herbs and +/- has most of the same info I'll post

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

lol, sorry for the double post, got sidetracked chatting.

*awkwardly raises hand* If I get fumaric acid from d-limo to FASW following the tek below, is it necessary to clean the excess fumaric acid before freebasing? I feel like I always skipped this step in the past. Are there any other reasons to clean it, aside from trying to get crystals?

Nontoxic Extraction Q&A

Can sodium carbonate be used in place of sodium hydroxide? If so, how much should be used in place of the 250g sodium hydroxide? Or, does sodium carbonate only work well for STB? If so, is there any way to work the FASI into an STB tech? When I come here, I am that kid who always stays after...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

 

[Transform]

haven't stripped exif data before

The forum does this automatically with all uploaded pictures, so only do it if you're particularly keen on having the learning experience. There will be tools that allow you to do it as a batch process but I'll side-step further unnecesary detail for now.

a cousin that pops up in research papers from time to time, but there is so little information about it.

Do you mean P. nigellastrum? (Not that I know anything much about that species besides its name!)

I was planning on posting pictures of all the information about evodia that I have

Please do!

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

So I cracked open the vacuum sealed bag of fruits and... These fruits are stinky, like really stinky.

First whiff opened with a top note like sichuan peppercorns. Second whiff was a heavy, full-bodied aroma, like skunky diesel cannabis. Third whiff was super heady, smelled like making cannabutter, reeked of terpinolene. And then I suddenly had to run to the toilet - in the event that wasn't a coincidence, I put on a mask.

I ground those bad boys up, added lime, and a little bit of water. Powdered, the fruits have an intense greenish yellow color, similarly to how Rue looks under black light, only, these didn't fluoresce.

I added the water, and the reaction got NOISY. I was starting mimosa in tandem with this, and the mimosa was quiet.

The evodia stench at this point was so pungent I wanted to vomit: it was like durian's evil curdled cheddar cheese-it, honey mustard, apple cider vinegar, BILE, fungus foot stank cousin. I enjoy durian. This smell was so awful I considered abandoning the project.

I'm curious how much the end product will clean up, because my senses told me in no uncertain terms that a full spectrum concentrate is definitely going to be a yakker.

I know papers listing the percentage yield of tryptamines in evodia are all over the place, BUT, if .2% yield of 5meo is true, then you would still be able to remain in the therapeutic range with the other alkaloids (evodia is used orally at 1.5 - 10g). So it might be gross, but not approaching uncharted overdose territory if the end product has to remain full spectrum. That's the biggest reason I'm going forward with the project at this point.

Vile. There are a few herbs I've encountered more vile than caapi. I've had prescriptions with snakes and centipedes that weren't that bad. Basified evodia is a vile stinker.

 

[Transform]

These fruits are stinky, like really stinky.

There Germans acknowledge this, as you may have noticed, by calling it "Stink-Esche"

I've chewed a couple of them - they're… 'interesting'. There's an acrid note that makes them quite difficult to tolerate. Sublingual without chewing was OK, but when Mrs T noticed the smell she wondered why the house smelled of weed Your observation on its likeness to ganja appears, therefore, to be valid.

You say it got noisy just from adding neutral water to the ground product?

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

I can't believe you chewed them! Did you get any effects?

I powdered the evodia, mixed with the lime, and then added water - and that was when it became noisy. Super weird because I did the same thing with mimosa and it didn't make any noise. But I've done the mimosa this way before, everything looked/smelled correct, it was simple and familiar. I actually still have the same stash of bark from when I was a wee Nexian.

Is there something else that could have chemically happened when I added the lime? Granted aliens don't crash this timeline, I'll be taking organic chemistry in a year from now. And then I can pay the help forward.

 

[Transform]

Oh now I get it - I'm in full derp mode this weekend and somehow both misinterpreted and then overlooked that you'd mentioned lime, as in calcium hydroxide rather than the rutaceous fruit. [Hopefully this isn't an after-effect from the evodia!]

The main effect from chewing was revulsion, but there was a bit of mental 'lightening' (not lightning!) from the sublingual test.

Edit: I just remembered that I had some oral cannabis yesterday and this would be a clear culprit for my present bout of cognitive dysfunction

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

I think I have to defat the evodia.

I got lots of emulsions. Additionally, a muddy, slimy sediment crashed out to the bottom of the water layer when I added the FASW. I have no idea if there were actives in it, but I was unable to recover it due to the tools at hand. The rest of the FASW was light brown.

The fruit also seemed to absorb about 1/3 of the limonene.

Nature really gates certain molecules.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

I had to sleep on this - the extraction was a disgusting and wholly unworkable mess. I think powdering the fruit was a bad idea, similarly to how powdering Syrian Rue to make tea is a yikes big no. It may as well have been jenkem.

So back to the drawing board: I'm going to first tincture whole fruits in 96% ethanol, evaporate, and then extract the extraction That should hopefully do away with the mess of nasty, sticky, oily mud in every layer. I hope.

Can anyone weigh in, would the temperature of the ethanol make a difference? And for how long would you suggest soaking the fruits? I saw a tek where endlessness did ethanol pulls with other plant material after as little as 30 minutes, but I know typical tincturing time is 4-6 weeks. And do you suppose it would be worth straining the tincture, and adding more ethanol to see if it pulls more?

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

This is interesting. I individually searched for the solubility of each component of evodia out of curiosity. Information was largely pulled from sites selling the chemicals, and I cross-referenced when possible.

It's worth noting, evodiamine and rutaecarpine are the two most abundant constituents.

My messy notes in a box:

-evodiamine
-soluble "organic solvents such as DMSO and formamide"
-insoluble water, ethanol
*stimulating & possibly SSRI properties

-rutaecarpine
-soluble DMSO : 57 mg/mL
-insoluble water, ethanol
-LD50: 65mg/mg (mice)

evocarpine
-soluble DMSO : 100 mg/mL(294.54 mM;Need ultrasonic)

-hydroxyevodiamine
-soluble Chloroform,Dichloromethane,Ethyl Acetate,DMSO,Acetone,etc.
*harmful if swallowed

-wuchuyine
???
-dihydrorutaecarpine
???

-14-formyldihydrorutaecarpine
Chloroform,Dichloromethane,Ethyl Acetate,DMSO,Acetone,etc.

-quinolone
-soluble weakly in water

-nn-dimethyl-5-methyoxy-tryptamine
-soluble Chloroform, ether, DCM, acetone, methanol, ethanol

-n-methylanthranylamide
-soluble in water??
*sweet, blossom, and fruity tasting compound. detected in foods, such as citrus, mandarin orange (clementine, tangerine), and sweet oranges (Citrus sinensis)

dl-synephrine
-soluble in water??
-longer acting adrenergic effects compared to epinephrine and norepinephrine.
-also found in oranges

-evodine
-soluble in dmso
-pgp inhibitor

-ocimene
-i love this terp
-evodin
-???
-evodol
-???
-goshuynic acid
-???
-evodinone
-???
-evogin
-???
-evodine
-???
-jangomolide
-soluble in DMSO
-novel limonoid

Also please note these are the compounds listed in the Chen & Chen TCM textbooks.

I think Ratsch has a few other compounds listed, including n-methyl-pinoline. @Transform Would you be able to confirm that's what the book was saying? Thank you.

Also interestingly, raw evodia is primarily intended for topical use. There are applications of moistened powdered herb to the scalp, and even more interestingly... powdered herb mixed with vinegar to the sole of the foot. And it's almost always cooked with other herbs before taken internally to "reduce toxicity."

So these notes have me thinking two things: starting with a tincture looks like it's going to simplify the project ENORMOUSLY.

And not necessarily related to the project, but I think it's super interesting so many of the actives are soluble in DMSO and there is documented medical transdermal use. I've been intrigued by the prevalence of 5meo containing plants used in skincare for a long time... and now discovering another one with transdermal application makes my head go boom. I think there are tons of medical mysteries linked to these molecules that we haven't even begun to appreciate yet.

(C'mon, you know you want to treat yourselves to a day at my 5meo dmt spa! It just doesn't exist in this dimension yet But the thought forms are floating in the ether...)

I still haven't decided if I want to powder the fruits for making the tincture yet because of the oily messy slop they became during the first attempt. I have the super fine nut milk bags to strain with, but I really think it could still be problematic. It was more greasy than the worst caapi or mimosa sediment I've ever seen.

I will also huff my jar of fruits the next time I drink Ayahuasca and ask them to tell me their secrets.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

I tinctured 50g whole fruits and 50g powdered fruits because I couldn't decide. The powder immediately became nasty with ethanol so we'll see how each of these go. If yields are the same, then good grief I am never powdering these fruits again

It will be just shy of six weeks if I strain the tinctures on the October 2nd eclipse. Stay tuned.

I was also considering that if I do end up with a tincture that is like full spectrum lite, active but slightly nauseating, I could mix it with coptis, which is used to counteract the hot effects. Fire and ice lozenges.