Terrence McKenna is not your friend

[polytrip]

If culture is indeed your operating system, and at the same time not your friend, then your operating system is not your friend. That´s at least a bit of a schizoid position as your operating system is inevitably a part of you.

Also, if culture is not your friend, it´s a bit weird to hold lectures and such, or to cite from them, as lecturing is a cultural activity. Moreover, refering to someone else´s words is most definately cultural, so refering to the gospel of TMK is just as cultural as reading the bible or watching a footballgame.

I don´t think there´s anybody here who´s a fan of a system that keeps the use of DMT illegal. But anger (and i have, as many people here know, experience with this) can take control over your mind to the point where it starts eating you up and where it makes you turn inside, cultivating an attitude of negativity and eventually even self-hate. The utterly schizoid nature of TMK´s position on culture, reveals that this has definately been the case with him as well.

Culture is a living thing. It changes with every word we speak. We make it and we are shaped by it. The use of ayahuasca is a cultural thing, as well as the use of salvia and peyote..well, any substance realy. It´s part of OUR culture.

To culturally cultivate a hate against all culture is definately a bit twisted. It´s like spreading the word about the curse of language.

 

[jamie]

whatever, you can pick apart peoples words and try to find negative aspects in them all you want.

I dont get your point about anger here..Mckenna never sounded angry to me. That was never his message. I think maybe you are angry and always find ways to pick apart other peoples ideas, fitting in your own interpretations that are based on some aspects of your own anger that you dont like.

You contantyly make post after post about people who dont like certain aspects of culture polytrip..we all get that by now..maybe take a look in the mirror though and ask yourself why? Why do you project in a way that makes these people out to be something they are not? Mckenna did not seem like an angry person at all, or held some weird hatred for the world. I honestly do not see that trait in many people who openly talk about the flaws of our culture.

These posts in way make it seem like you are somewhat guilty of the same sort of negativity that you are accusing others of. People tend to see mirrored in everything the things they are focussed on.

All I am saying is lighten up a little. It does not seem healthy to focus on this stuff to that extend man.

 

[zombicyckel]

Terrence is a legend, of course there is gonna be haters. He open alot of doors for many people, thinking outside the box where nobody even wanted to touch. sure alot may be ultimatly failing, still those theories needed to be out there. Its easy to hate, its harder to put your self on the line like he did.



Great man, enough said.

 

[proto-pax]

How would one suggest interaction in an acultural manner? It seems to me that his "culture is not your friend" was a dialouge on the culture of our current society and how even it's more "openminded" aspects (NPR was a specific he mentioned) reguluarly perpetuate teh very problems that they address on their programs. He also says he always spoke in metaphors (you could argue then what is the point of his lectures, but what is the point of anything?).


You do seem to have a zest towards downplaying the thoughts of counter cultural folks, but I agree with jamie I don't feel that it really leads towards us anywhere good. Sorry if this came off harsh. I still respect your opinoin however much I disagree with it.

 

[jamie]

Terrence also gave long elaborated lectures on his ideas of a "psychedelic society". To anyone familiar with his lectures it should be evident that he was not holding opinion that culture or society is something to be thrown away entirely. If that is all you get from Mckenna than that is your interpretation I guess..but it seems to be based only on his elaboration of one idea he expressed without seeing it's relevance within the larger spectrum of the guys ideas.

Everyone is going to project anyway and find whatever they want to find..Mckenna included..

He also stated numberous times that he contradicted himself and that it should be that way.

 

[Vodsel]

I don't think we should understand "culture" in that famous McKenna quote as the universal, eternal concept of culture. Terence was talking about the statu quo, the current cultural system. The context is essential. You can also find other quotes by him that start like this:

We have to create culture, don't watch TV, don't read magazines, don't even listen to NPR. Create your own roadshow. The nexus of space and time where you are now is the most immediate sector of your universe, and if you're worrying about Michael Jackson or Bill Clinton or somebody else, then you are disempowered, you're giving it all away to icons, icons which are maintained by an electronic media so that you want to dress like X or have lips like Y. This is shit-brained, this kind of thinking.

 

[daedaloops]

To be honest, whatever polytrips motivation was to make this thread, I for one am glad because I never really did understand what McKenna meant by that when he said it. And whenever someone quotes it, I still have no idea what it means or how it relates to their post. I've just been too ashamed to ask about it, as it's probably something that should be obvious to everybody.

And to be even more honest, I don't even know what the word culture really means. According to my sweaty old dictionary, the main definition is "the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively." So arts and intellectual achievements are not your friends? In that case , I have to agree with polytrip, it doesn't make sense.. But yeah McKenna probably meant something else with that.. Like if I just replace the word "culture" with "politics" or "western society" it immediately starts to make alot more sense.

edit: ah, jamies and Vodsels posts shed alot more light on it..

 

[polytrip]

whatever, you can pick apart peoples words and try to find negative aspects in them all you want.

I dont get your point about anger here..Mckenna never sounded angry to me. That was never his message. I think maybe you are angry and always find ways to pick apart other peoples ideas, fitting in your own interpretations that are based on some aspects of your own anger that you dont like.

You contantyly make post after post about people who dont like certain aspects of culture polytrip..we all get that by now..maybe take a look in the mirror though and ask yourself why? Why do you project in a way that makes these people out to be something they are not? Mckenna did not seem like an angry person at all, or held some weird hatred for the world. I honestly do not see that trait in many people who openly talk about the flaws of our culture.

These posts in way make it seem like you are somewhat guilty of the same sort of negativity that you are accusing others of. People tend to see mirrored in everything the things they are focussed on.

All I am saying is lighten up a little. It does not seem healthy to focus on this stuff to that extend man.

Yeah, you´re right.

But what am i supposed to do? When i look at for instance the art section on this site, it´s more than obvious to me that this community is BULKING with talent.

And at the same time i constantly see posts here about how all of society sucks, how dumb everyone outside realy is, how we are all slaves who´re controlled by 'the elites', 'the bankers' and such and how doomsday is just waiting to happen, etc.

Or posts about schizophrenia with statements like 'the label crazy is just another arbitrary line drawn in the sand'...like:'go ahead, if you´re schizophrenic in believing whatever, don´t listen to the doctors but just take more DMT'.

To some extent i just believe that especially the DMT nexus...well, i mean..it´s just too easy. It makes this place look like any ordinary drugforum where stoners come to vent their twisted conspiracy theories about how AIDS was created by the CIA and how sesame street is actually an NSA brainwash project that uses subliminal messages, etc.

And some people just talk about this man like he´s the second coming, taking everything he sayd literally. Or they don´t take hime literally because he once said not to take him literally..reminding me of the python movie:'yes, we´re all individuals'.

There is the trend that the more people see TMK as the second coming and the more literally they tend to take him, the more paranoid their beliefs about the rest of the world tend to be.

 

[ChaoticMethod]

whatever, you can pick apart peoples words and try to find negative aspects in them all you want.

I dont get your point about anger here..Mckenna never sounded angry to me. That was never his message. I think maybe you are angry and always find ways to pick apart other peoples ideas, fitting in your own interpretations that are based on some aspects of your own anger that you dont like.

You contantyly make post after post about people who dont like certain aspects of culture polytrip..we all get that by now..maybe take a look in the mirror though and ask yourself why? Why do you project in a way that makes these people out to be something they are not? Mckenna did not seem like an angry person at all, or held some weird hatred for the world. I honestly do not see that trait in many people who openly talk about the flaws of our culture.

These posts in way make it seem like you are somewhat guilty of the same sort of negativity that you are accusing others of. People tend to see mirrored in everything the things they are focussed on.

All I am saying is lighten up a little. It does not seem healthy to focus on this stuff to that extend man.

Yeah, you´re right.

But what am i supposed to do? When i look at for instance the art section on this site, it´s more than obvious to me that this community is BULKING with talent.

And at the same time i constantly see posts here about how all of society sucks, how dumb everyone outside realy is, how we are all slaves who´re controlled by 'the elites', 'the bankers' and such and how doomsday is just waiting to happen, etc.

Or posts about schizophrenia with statements like 'the label crazy is just another arbitrary line drawn in the sand'...like:'go ahead, if you´re schizophrenic in believing whatever, don´t listen to the doctors but just take more DMT'.

To some extent i just believe that especially the DMT nexus...well, i mean..it´s just too easy. It makes this place look like any ordinary drugforum where stoners come to vent their twisted conspiracy theories about how AIDS was created by the CIA and how sesame street is actually an NSA brainwash project that uses subliminal messages, etc.

And some people just talk about this man like he´s the second coming, taking everything he sayd literally. Or they don´t take hime literally because he once said not to take him literally..reminding me of the python movie:'yes, we´re all individuals'.

There is the trend that the more people see TMK as the second coming and the more literally they tend to take him, the more paranoid their beliefs about the rest of the world tend to be.

I don't know... , I really like TMK and don't really enjoy conspiracy theory. I remember listening to a talk from him that was actually criticizing conspiracy theories.

I've never really taken the man literaly, at the same time. He sounds more like a poet or a funny storyteller than anything else to me.

 

[Vodsel]

Be patient, dude. Once 2013 is here (and that's around the corner) the literal, messianic takes on TMK will lose momentum and he will slowly fall into the place he really belongs, imho... A brilliant postmodern philosopher, an enthusiastic researcher, a bold guru psychonaut, a timely living wake-up-alarm-clock against some noxious dreams (sort of a hammer, in a nietzschean sense) and a speaker gifted by the Word, but not a messiah.

 

[spinCycle]

It seems t me that "Culture is not your friend" is just Terrance's rather poetic way of saying "Don't forget to look within."

I don't think for a second that he imagined we could escape from Culture.

 

[Nicita]

I think in order to understand a bit more about that sentence, we need to look at the word culture. It comes from "cult" and a cult is in it's old meaning nothing more than a group of people, worshipping someone or something. A cult can be a small group that follows a leader who claims to receive instructions by the frog god. At the same time a billion people following an old man in a silly hat is also a cult.
Therefore, culture seems to be set of rules how to behave, what to believe, what to live and what to die for... set up by a group of people connected by one or several sacred icons.

I can see why "Culture is not your friend", when I think about some commandments that can arise from such groups:
"Jump of the cliff to please the frog god!"
"Give us money or you will burn in hell!"
"Go to work until you become insane, because we need to calm the markets!"

These may be extreme examples, but I think it illustrates the problem with cult-ure. Whenever the goals of the cult are against the interests of its' members, culture will work against them. Today culture highly influenced by media cooporations, by advertisement, by highly organized religions, by governments... Do you think they will set goals that represent our interests?
If we constructed culture ourselves, we could set goals representing the interests of every individual and try to find a way of living that does not destroy the planet we are living on.
I think this is a wonderfull idea.

Btw, I have heared very little McKenna and this is only what comes to my mind when I think about this sentence. He probably meant something entirely different. but I strongly supect that he woulnd't want anyone to just mindlessly repeat his words but rather think about what they might stand for and if there isn't some better explaination.

 

[nen888]

..heh, heh..well, Terence actually was my friend ..i haven't read all this thread yet, but i'll chuck in:
in person i found him very humorous, and mellow, and philosophical rather than having firm or fixed positions, not a 'religious' subscriber to ANY of his ideas, theories etc..
..he liked to talk about his kids and families a lot..and to smoke cannabis and dream up wacky theories with friends to make us all laugh..and think..

if you ever actually asked for the final ANSWER on some of his BIGGEST CONJECTURES he would look you in the eyes and say: "Well, I don't know! I'm asking everybody."
.

 

[dreamer042]

Thanks Vodsel, I found both your posts very well written and completely on point. :thumb_up:

I also have to agree with jamie here:

You contantyly make post after post about people who dont like certain aspects of culture polytrip..we all get that by now..maybe take a look in the mirror though and ask yourself why? Why do you project in a way that makes these people out to be something they are not?

These posts in way make it seem like you are somewhat guilty of the same sort of negativity that you are accusing others of. People tend to see mirrored in everything the things they are focussed on.

All I am saying is lighten up a little. It does not seem healthy to focus on this stuff to that extend man.

As a wise man once said, "Can't we all just get a bong?"

 

[christian]

Terence mckenna is a legend. Period! 8)

 

[Felnik]

I happen think his lectures are excellent . I,m not sure what all the negative fuss is about.

He's pretty reasonable about his concepts if you actually listen .

At the very least his ideas are excercises in extreme out of the box thinking . That's not a bad thing for starters .

He's obviously not everyone's cup of tea but if you listen you'll find much that's false about what's said about him on the hater front .

 

[xantho]

I'm not sure if this is totally relevant but I'll throw in a little contribution from my study of social anthropology (cultural anthropology in the USA): Culture has been completely deconstructed as an analytical category by the postmodernist movement and, as such, is viewed with great scepticism by many anthropologists and other social scientists. In simple terms, what this means is that speaking about a particular culture, or one's culture, has become too problematic to be of any use. For instance, how can you speak about 'American culture' when the variation in ideas, behaviours, and language exhibited by even a small sample of people living within the United States is too diverse to collapse into sameness? In addition, identifying people as belonging to a discrete culture opens the door to discrimination and racism, since these 'cultures' are often portrayed as exhibiting dominant traits and the individual differences in populations are plastered over: "We are cultured, they are not", or "Laziness and stupidity are part of their culture". If someone asked you, "What is your culture?", what would you say? I'm not sure about you guys, but I wouldn't even have the slightest idea where to start.

I believe that when McKenna said "culture is not your friend", he was attempting to make us aware of the extent to which the individual human experience is shaped and influenced by a variety of social, environmental, political, economic, and other factors. These factors cannot be neatly separated. They combine and interact to form a vast and dynamic network, of which the human experience is just a part. IMHO, McKenna's statement essentially raises issues of structure vs. agency. To what extent are we determined by our environment, and to what extent are we able to inject our own unique being into that environment - leading to a change in the system? I believe this is why McKenna urged us to become creators and producers, rather than simply digesting ideologies and commodities without the slightest semblance of conscious awareness. To me, it's no surprise that McKenna produced these sorts of ideas since the mushroom has a special knack for dissolving layers of internalized rules and structures (essentially: meaning), leaving in it's wake a questioning and reexamination of all that was previously taken for granted.

Phew, I think that's enough abstract anthropological babbling for one day!

One more thought before I depart to frolic in the sunshine: McKenna and his ideas developed over time. They were not necessarily the product of simple linear progression, nor did they remain constant throughout his life. Terence was just a dude like you or I, and dudes change over time. They have experiences which alter their understanding of the world. That's why I think that bundling up all of his ideas together and critiquing them based on their perceived inconsistencies is ultimately unhelpful. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and insights!

 

[VIII]

Xantho, great post! I think you hit the nail right on the head.

You can't really escape culture, but you can discover and reshape your own.

Very interesting topic of study imo. Culture has so many levels, variables, interpretations (here is one interpretation of Cultural Value Orientations. Does it limit our selves? Does it add to our selves? Is it a harmful side effect of human nature? Is it a beautiful creation and expression of the human experience? Is it your friend? Is it you? I think it is important for one to identify their cultural values and judge for themselves.

I love experiencing, learning, and exploring the ways of other cultures so I'm a bit biased...

Actually, the most important part of culture…is that which is hidden and internal but which governs the behavior encounter.

[YouTube]

 

[SKA]

I'm going to have to side with the others here who said you may be projecting your own struggle with hatred onto
Terrence McKenna. I too have this struggle with hatred. Hatred against ignorance & injustice happening on a dayly
basis on every corner of the earth. I do realise that this hatred does nothing to solve these developments, in fact..
it only fuels that very fire. At the same time I still find it difficult not to be consumed by hatred. Viscious,
murderous hatred.

I recognise the tone of this hatred I struggle with in the words of this post, Polytrip.
But honoustly I've never recognised any such tone in McKenna, even when he talks about most
horrible injustice & shameless, medieval ignorance. He does it so calmly, neutrally and
clearminded that I wonder how he does it. When I talk, or even just think about these many
injustices & ignorance, quickly my mind gets overtaken by hatred, fear, dispair & everything
else that makes staying calm & thinking rationally near impossible.

He is able to explain in great detail these ignorances & injustices and what he thinks may
be behind them Politically, Economically & Psychologically/Culturally, without loosing his
cool. Surely you and I have trouble integrating his views, because we obviously have anger-issues,
Polytrip. You, I & an amazing amount of people all over this world have anger issues.


But Terrence McKenna did never occur to me as being plagued & tormented by the same feelings of
hatred, grief & dispair I often experience.
I allways felt McKenna meant to say: Don't accept the Operating System that Culture offers you: Create your
own operating system. Be inspired by some cultural values, but reject others. Never accept 1 culture as the
1 and only worthy culture/operating system. Use different cultural values from different cultures that agree
with your moral & common sense & make a unique cultural mozaic of your own. He was encouraging Syncretism.

This I find a very positive message. He is in favor of more room for individual variation & growth.
More freedom for individuals defenitely is what this world needs if you ask me.
It resonates with Nietche's saying about it being hard for the Individual not to be overwhelmed by
the Tribe. In this case Nietche's Tribe = McKenna's Culture. Not your friend. The tribe will try to
own you. Overrule you. Control you. If each individual was more free & allowed to develop & practice
their own cultural-beliefs and taught to be more tolerant of other people's different cultural beliefs,
then the Tribe/Culture could indeed become more of a friend: a connecting element, a medium that allows
a more tolerant, liberated civilisation to start forming.

So culture isn't good or bad. It CAn be good and it CAN be bad. Like someone else here said before,
paradoxically Culture shapes us, but in turn is shaped BY us. If Culture/Tribe is becomming more
fascist & intolerant of individual freedoms, it means the majority of the Tribe members base their
behaviour & decision making on feelings of insecurity, fear, envy, greed...and all the other delights
the Ego has to offer. The culture/Tribe is becomming more and more ego-based.

But paradoxically it is this same medium, the Culture/Tribe, through which some other people (like McKenna)
have worked to spread awareness of the evil that Ego does & the virtues of keeping one's Ego small & humble.
The Knife of Culture/Tribe cuts both ways. The people in McKenna's camp have just been too shy & silent.
They should spread more argumentations & lectures in favor of ego-surrender & individual freedom.

We have work to do.

 

[Guyomech]

I always found it pretty easy to accept the parts of TMK that made sense, and dismiss the parts that I couldn't relate to. At the time I was starting my psychedelic career in earnest, his books and lectures were a huge inspiration for me, even though the flaws were obvious. I think that anyone who accepts blindly all the words of any teacher probably hasn't been tripping enough.

He also spoke out against gurus in general, and asked his audience to not perceive him as such.

And it turned out that in person he was humble, humorous, a good listener, and very willing to backtrack on his own statements.

I always thought that his remark about culture was spot-on. Even though counterculture is just a manifestation of culture overall... I always felt that his point was simply to not get sucked into group-think, to set your own compass, to let your life be an experiment. Culture is a comfort zone for people who are unwilling or unable to strike out on their own, and under its umbrella a person will be less likely to lead a remarkable life. He was telling us to not be afraid of stepping outside that comfort zone.


Poly: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I think you have a bad habit of letting a very small minority of dumbasses spoil what could otherwise be a very positive and enjoyable experience of being here. You must be at least partly aware of the work we put into keeping conspiracies and stupid advice out of the discussions. Realistically, though, a little will still leak through.

I'm probably paraphrasing this wrong- I saw it in somebody's signature here- but I really like this Robert Anton Wilson quote: "You are precisely as big as that which inspires you, and precisely as small as that which you let annoy you." Anyway, take that for whatever it's worth.