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the "dream theory"/pineal gland connection

Migrated topic.
there are two issues that conflict with the pineal gland/DMT mind trip theories...the first is that there isn't a sufficient concentration of tryptamine methylating enzyme INMT present in the brain... the second is that DMT is typically present in subnanomolar concentrations, about 200 times lower than those which would produce subjective effects.

discuss
 
Lets get into some data.

1. No tryptamine methylation in the CNS. Check out:


Published in Science no less. Apparently DMT can indeed be manufactured in the mammalian brain.


2. Low concentrations of DMT in the CNS:

Here we could benefit greatly from some data. We need to know how these measurements were made. I imagine they were made by making CNS homogenate and assaying the DMT concentration in the CNS at large. This might not be the best for evaluating this theory. Local, transient increases in DMT concentration at specific sites in the CNS may account for its endogenous activity. Note that this might not be detectable as an increase in DMT in the CNS at large. Unfortunately, AFAIK, there is no good way to label DMT in-situ for a quantitative assay. The best we could do would be to assay substructures of the brain while the animal was in certain controlled states (sleeping, grooming, fighting, breeding etc.)

We really need a mutant in the tryptamine methylase. If this theory is true we can predict what kind of problems such a mutant might have (inability to dream, no sense of spirituality etc.)
 
according to the 'anxiolytic paper' (2004), the enzyme would technically be INMT. not sufficiently expressed in the brain


"A contemporary investigation, utilizing modern
genetic and structural techniques, has provided a
more detailed analysis of INMT, but does not provide
a complete story. In two studies, Thompson
et al. [35,36], cloned, expressed, localized, and
characterized the activities of rabbit and human
INMT. Using Northern blot analysis, they found rabbit
INMT transcripts expressed heavily in the lung,
moderately in the liver, and weakly in the brain. Human
INMT was expressed in the lung, thyroid, adrenal
gland, heart, muscle, and spinal cord, but not in
the brain. The authors observe high Km values (an
order of magnitude higher than in previous studies
[33,34]) of TYP for recombinant human INMT and
an absence of INMT mRNA transcripts in the brain.
Thus, Thompson et al. conclude that the production
of DMT in humans is not physiologically significant.
Their conclusion places much weight on the significance
of observed Km values for recombinant human
INMT and does not take into account several
additional genetic and enzymatic concerns."

but as you mentioned, current techniques have yet to quantitatively detect DMT formation in situ.
as you've already figured as well, the typical concentration of DMT in serum is much lower than psychedelic doses

"In a short half-page report
in Nature, Franzen and Gross [8] reported the presence
of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human blood
(8 · 10^-9 g/mL) and urine (4 · 10^-5 g/24 h).
Subsequent research found these levels to be too
high and that the average concentrations in normal
subjects tended to be around 5 · 10^-10 g/mL in
blood [12] and 4 · 10^-7 g/24 h in urine [23]. (It
should be noted that the threshold dose to produce
subjective effects in humans is about 5 · 10^-5
g/kg, which leads to peak blood concentrations
of 1 · 10^-8 g/mL [18,24])."



so the 'stress theory' of DMT production makes more sense, since INMT has been shown to be expressed in lungs, heart, adrenals, muscle and spinal tissues, the latter having high concentrations of serotonin. (the theoretical metabolic pathway for DMT synthesis would also inhibit serotonin production)
 
does DMT necessarily have to be made in the pineal gland? its presence in the human cerebro spinal fluid and blood do not necessarily mean that it is made in the pineal gland. why do people suspect the pineal gland as the source so much? Because melatonin is also there? This part of this theory is what i find a bit puzzling.

The role of the compound in our human system is interesting. There is some belief that it may be more involved in the TA (trace amine) series of neuro receptors but not much is known about the role of this system (as far as i know). I can't remember what other endogenous ligands bind to these receptors, might give some clues.
 
tyramine, phenylalanine, and amphetamines/phenethylamines, I believe.

melatonin is the end product of the tryptophan --> melatonin metabolic pathway, as we know it. there are defined EC numbers (enzyme commission #s) associated with each reaction. the new school of thought is that tryptophan metabolizes to simple tryptamines (via tryptophan decarboxylase and INMT) before it can metabolize to serotonin (which is typically produced in the gut). since the brain lacks sufficient concentrations of INMT (Indole-N-MethylTransferase) because the mRNA isn't sufficiently coding for its expression, these N-methylated tryptamines are going to be virtually undetectable by traditional standard assays. if subbed tryptamines like NMT and DMT are found in the brain, it's likely because they readily cross the BBB and bind there. it's possible for the brain to produce minute trace amounts, but most of it, I think, may be produced in the human core including the spine. the brain handles the transmission: it's at the TA (and of course, 5HT2A) receptors that dmt binds with strong affinity
 
benzyme said:
according to the 'anxiolytic paper' (2004), the enzyme would technically be INMT. not sufficiently expressed in the brain

That was a great read, but I am not fully convinced. The fact that they detected significant amount of INMT message in rabbit but not human brain is telling. Brain structure/function is very well conserved across all vertebrates, and especially across all mammals.

Perhaps this means that this gene is only expressed in small subset of CNS neurons and maybe at low levels. Gene expression in neurons is weird sometimes. They have been known to shuttle mRNAs way out to the end of axons to make protein close to the synapse. These transcripts might be few in number but unusually stable and productive. Hard to guess. Need in-situ hybridization study of human brain sections. I'll donate mine when the time comes!

Another possibility is that the CNS only produces DMT under certain circumstances. Strassman would tell us to look in the brain of a dreaming subject or a subject that is dying while conscious. If this is true it would perhaps imply that INMT is under transcriptional control in the human CNS. Very cool. If we could understand the regulation of this gene we might be able to make a trip on endogenous DMT :)

Of course it is possible that: 1) Rabbits have gained the ability to generate DMT since diverging from man. or 2) Man has lost this ability. I think both are unlikely but we can't rule either out. I speculate that DMT is produced in some of the more ancient, 'primitive' brain structures. The fact that the human brain has a big ass cortex lurking over these structures and the rabbit brain does not could easily skew the total concentration of INMT message and push it below the detection limit in the human brain.

Blood and urine concentrations might not really mean much if DMT is released in very small amounts across the synapses of a small number of neurons. On the other hand, when ingesting this compound you might need a really very high blood concentration because not all of it will end up at synapses where receptors are located. The meaningful concentration of any biological signaling molecule is determined by the concentration of the signal and the number and affinity of receptors after all.

We need a very selective monoclonal antibody against DMT. This will be expensive to produce though as there are so many molecules with very similar shapes. Many antibodies would have to be screened to find one that bound DMT uniquely. If someone finds a high specificity receptor for DMT in the brain of any animal we could use that as a label too.
 
I'm not a big believer in the alternative hypothesis, simply because tryptophan metabolism occurs outside the brain, for the most part, save melatonin.
afaik, there's no degradative pathway for melatonin to give dmt either.
DMT is considered to be a metabolite produced before 5HT, so it's inhibitory to 5HT production. what's interesting is that DMT freely crosses the BBB, whereas 5HT does not.
 
benzyme said:
there are two issues that conflict with the pineal gland/DMT mind trip theories...the first is that there isn't a sufficient concentration of tryptamine methylating enzyme INMT present in the brain...

How could you know? That never has been measured in a live human brain.

benzyme said:
the second is that DMT is typically present in subnanomolar concentrations, about 200 times lower than those which would produce subjective effects.

Same as above. Nevertheless, even if DMT is present in the brain only in extremely low concentrations, it may be likely located exactly at the right spot, therefore there is no need for a dose as high as when applied externally.

I also read that MAOI does have "psychedelic" and "hallucinogenous" features when applied in high doses too. I don't think that is due to increased serotonine levels, which usually cause euphoric effects, so there is a chance it is caused by endogenous DMT.

There is no evidence yet, but indicators.
 
How could you know? That never has been measured in a live human brain.
the presence of INMT? it's actually been assayed, and found in peripheral tissues.


Nevertheless, even if DMT is present in the brain only in extremely low concentrations, it may be likely located exactly at the right spot, therefore there is no need for a dose as high as when applied externally.

I also read that MAOI does have "psychedelic" and "hallucinogenous" features when applied in high doses too. I don't think that is due to increased serotonine levels, which usually cause euphoric effects, so there is a chance it is caused by endogenous DMT.

There is no evidence yet, but indicators.
this is speculative too. other psychedelic tryptamines are also found in serum, namely bufotenine (which may even exist in higher conc. than dmt), and 5-MeO-DMT. since MAOI isn't specific to just tryptamines, you're also looking at increased levels of metabolites of norepinephrine, which can give "psychedelic" effects as well.

I'm in favor of the "chemical messenger" role of DMT in the brain, rather than a cerebrally produced compound. I feel as though more evidence points to the source in the human core tissues.

and as for dreaming...it's a function of acetylcholine.
 
benzyme said:
it's actually been assayed, and found in peripheral tissues.

...that actually don't reflect the concentration that might exist near the pineal gland, which is not a direct part of the brain and is pretty much encapsulated in it's own compound.

benzyme said:
this is speculative too.

Everything is speculative.

benzyme said:
and as for dreaming...it's a function of acetylcholine.

I don't think so, but maybe you'd like to offer your source?

You may want to read this: http://forum.erraticwisdom.com/viewtopic.php?id=2071
Especially the third post. Dreaming is surely not "a function of acetylcholine", though acetylcholine as a common neurotransmitter may of course be involved or not.
 
gigaschatten said:
I don't think so, but maybe you'd like to offer your source?

You may want to read this: http://forum.erraticwisdom.com/viewtopic.php?id=2071
Especially the third post. Dreaming is surely not "a function of acetylcholine", though acetylcholine as a common neurotransmitter may of course be involved or not.

your own link mentions it in the second post.
acetylcholine induces REM sleep, it's no mystery.

and why not, dreams are constructed from indexed memories..not the elves.
 
benzyme said:
your own link mentions it in the second post.

...but discards it in the third. The posts display a history of the view on dreams in science.

benzyme said:
acetylcholine induces REM sleep, it's no mystery.

Dreams are a mystery. There are indications that acetylcholine can fire up REM sleep, that doesn't mean it causes dreams. Dreams occur during each sleep phase. Besides temporary studies showing that, I know it myself, because I experience that first hand.

benzyme said:
and why not, dreams are constructed from indexed memories..not the elves.

You say that as if you knew that. Fact is, you don't. That's all unproven theory again. Actually a younger study showed that only a small number of dreams are related to occurences in the dreamers life and if so, that mostly happens at the beginning of sleep and involved the last thoughts the dreamer had before.
 
Dreams are a mystery. There are indications that acetylcholine can fire up REM sleep, that doesn't mean it causes dreams. Dreams occur during each sleep phase. Besides temporary studies showing that, I know it myself, because I experience that first hand.
that paper which shows acetylcholinesterase inhibition significantly reduces REM sleep is a good indicator that aCh is has a key role in REM sleep (dreaming).
my past experiences with DMAE gave me lucid dreams, which certainly reinforced what I already figured.

You say that as if you knew that. Fact is, you don't. That's all unproven theory again. Actually a younger study showed that only a small number of dreams are related to occurences in the dreamers life and if so, that mostly happens at the beginning of sleep and involved the last thoughts the dreamer had before.

well, like you said, I know this through experience, first hand. every dream I've ever had has been from some memory tied to any of my senses, or some thoughts. personally, I've never had an alien imprinted dream. they've all been familiar.
of course it's all theory, and nothing in science is ever proven, only evidence shown; and with current scientific methods, you can't exactly show evidence for a subjective experience such as dreaming.
but there is more evidence that points to acetylcholine involvement with dreams than dmt (for which there is no evidence)
 
benzyme said:
but there is more evidence that points to acetylcholine involvement with dreams than dmt (for which there is no evidence)

On that I can possibly agree, but I don't want dreams reduced to an effect of a single chemical like acetylcholine. For that I've seen too much.
 
gigaschatten said:
benzyme said:
but there is more evidence that points to acetylcholine involvement with dreams than dmt (for which there is no evidence)

On that I can possibly agree, but I don't want dreams reduced to an effect of a single chemical like acetylcholine. For that I've seen too much.

indeed.
human experiences can seldomly be narrowed down to a single chemical.
as was pointed out in the link you provided, norepinephrine and serotonin are also involved in rem sleep.
 
Neurotransmitters that function in the CNS are not produced by the gut. I think this may be causing some confusion. Neurotransmitters are produced in the gut but they tend to signal to other gut cells. This is probably why some otherwise bitchin' triptamines make people violently ill.

http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/36/14/16

CNS nerons release very specific complements of neurotransmitters to very specific target synapses. Just think of the biological challenge involved in somehow shuttling neurotransmitters to such specific neurons without stimulating all the nearby neurons. In this model the vasculature would be a major informational component of the CNS.

The complement of neurotransmitters a given neuron is capable of producing is mostly determined during embryonic development. The metabolic enzymes that produce neurotransmitters are expressed in very specific patterns in neurons and glia. This is how large classes of neurons are often defined (e.g. sertotogenic neurons) and expression of these genes is used by developmental neurobiologists as a mark of terminal differentiation of a given neuron. If you are quick and you are careful you can even get neurons to keep making neurotransmitter for weeks after you remove them from an animal.

If DMT is an endogenous neurotransmitter in humans it would have to be expressed at low levels and/or in very specific regions of the CNS. Otherwise we would never get any work done ;)

The detection method cited is inadequate. If we must assay brain homogenate then the detection method must employ an amplification or three to really determine there is no expression. RT-PCR, done with the appropriate controls, would be convincing. Northern blot sucks and should be avoided now that we have light-cyclers and quantitative RT-PCR. The thing about Northern is that the background will eventually catch up to the signal and wash out dim bands. This is well known and northerns should never be used to rule out the presence of a message. Northers can be a decent way to quantify message in a pinch, but RT-PCR is much much more sensitive and easier to quantify. It's nice to not worry about radiation too ;) No excuse really. Plenty of companies exist that will do RT-PCR on any sample for a pretty reasonable price.

Much better to make serial sections and perform an in-situ hybridization analysis. Then you lose all quantitative data though. You only know where a gene is expressed. Best to use both for a well rounded gene expression analysis.
 
haha, good link.
I have this "gut feeling" some dmt production may occur in the spine

here's INMT, which has been shown to be expressed in cerebrospinal fluid

INMT.jpg
Crystal Structure of Human Indolethylamine N-methyltransferase with SAH
method of detection: x-ray diffraction
EC# 2.1.1.49 , PDB id. 2a14

another structure img of INMT
 
I doubt it, the spine is used mostly for retrieving stimuli and motor movement. DMT wouldn't really serve a purpose there. There are MANY compounds similar in structure to dmt and other hallucinogens, but they dont often hang out in clusters/together.
 
D_Juggz said:
I doubt it, the spine is used mostly for retrieving stimuli and motor movement. DMT wouldn't really serve a purpose there. There are MANY compounds similar in structure to dmt and other hallucinogens, but they dont often hang out in clusters/together.

supposedly NMT, and subsequently, DMT are methylated from this enzyme. it has been shown to be expressed in the spine (as well as lungs, heart, adrenals, and muscle tissues), I don't see a practical reason for transport elsewhere for synthesis
 
Strange. The cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) is a continuous, circulating system. It bathes your brain and fills the verticals, then flows down the lumen of the spinal chord. It is ultimately resorbed by the vascular and lymphatic system. It is an acellular environment. Molecules that are found in the CSF are excreted by a layer of ependymal cells that line the brain ventricals. These molecules are not necessariy produced by ependymal cells though, many are produced by CNS neurons and glia and are transported to the CSF via ependymal cells.

I did not think the CSF contained active metabolic enzymes. It thought was just an isotonic solution for structural support and for the removal of waste. It is possible that DMT might have a neuroendocrine function. In this model DMT is produced by the CNS but signals to the periphery via the CSF (this is how some known neuroendocrine factors work.) However, AFAIK, no neuroedocrines are actually produced in the CSF.
 
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