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The Infinitely Reincarnating Materialist?

Migrated topic.

5 Dimensional Nick

"Full of multiversal flow!"
Dear Nexians,

First let me say how much I have enjoyed interacting with all you interesting, thoughtful, smart people on here. Its a joy to discuss stuff and/or have a laugh. Also, although I probably don't have to, I wanna apologize for when the replies get very long and many and I don't retort, although its usually because I have been beaten in an argument, but because sometimes its cos I have a rubbish attention span and cannot concentrate long enough.

I am posting cos I came up with a nu theory and am interested to see what you think.

So here goes.

Given that one believes in materialism or something close and there is no "soul" and that when you die everything goes "black" forever but it doesn't matter because you are not aware of it, and that huge eons of time can pass and from the perspective of the dead person this would take no time at all (or even be happening), wouldn't it follow that eventually in googolplexs and googolplexs of eons, or the Poincaré recurrence time for this universe, said dead person would miraculously spring back to life, no time seeming to have past at all?

Also when this person died again the exact same thing would happen again? And again, and again ad infinitum meaning that even a staunch materialist will live forever, soul or not?

Food for thought? OR crazy nonsense?

Cheers guys,

5DN.
 
So are you talking about the an extrapolation of materialism as one might conceive it or the truth as best anyone can figure it?

I don't really see how a staunch materialst could see the world, because certainly there is consciousness, and since there is how is there just material and nothing else.

One thing I hear is that some people think that once you're dead, there is nothingness and like you say it's so nothing that you're not aware of any time passing in the lives of the living, and it just stays that way forever. When you're dead, you're dead.

But that doesn't make any sense to me because you got into living somehow, and nothing seems to stay the same forever, there's always the on/off game going on in the universe. How could you have darkness forever? How do you have black with no white?

Also when this person died again the exact same thing would happen again? And again, and again ad infinitum meaning that even a staunch materialist will live forever, soul or not?

What does being a materialist have to do with the reality of existence? 😁

It's seems like you're arguing semantics, or how a certain ideology perceives metaphysics.

I think consciousness will live forever, no matter what shade you are right now.
 
Not sure you understood my post correctly.

Firstly I didn't actually specify this but I believe in infinite conciousness, similar or the same as you.

My OP is a philosophical argument/musing I came up with to call into question the finality of materialist/atheist's belief in permanent "death", with this seemingly absurd but logical argument.

Also materialism doesn't deny consciousness it just assumes that it is an emergent property of matter and the laws of physics and one has no free-will, I believe.
 
"Given that one believes in materialism or something close and there is no "soul" and that when you die everything goes "black" forever but it doesn't matter because you are not aware of it, and that huge eons of time can pass and from the perspective of the dead person this would take no time at all (or even be happening), wouldn't it follow that eventually in googolplexs and googolplexs of eons, or the Poincaré recurrence time for this universe, said dead person would miraculously spring back to life, no time seeming to have past at all?"


Isn't it ironic, though, that you just wrote a paragraph about it?

"you can fit logic into life, but you can't fit life into logic"
-Sadhguru
 
Well I'm not a scientist at all, but isn't the common perception that the universe just sprang out of nothing really with the Big Bang and will come to an end in a couple trillion years in the Big Crunch? Even with all of that space and a couple trillion years I feel like what you are proposing could only happen a limited number of times before the universe simply ended. Although this is not how I believe things to be, I feel like this is how the materialist/reductionist might respond to your post.
 
No actually. The current scientific consensus, due to the universe not only expanding but expanding faster and faster as time progresses is that there will never be a big crunch but a big freeze, otherwise known as the heat death of the universe. Its quite depressing and although seems logically sound to current scientists understanding I believe it too may be illogical.
 
I read your question as: If I don't believe in anything supernatural, is it still a possibility that "I" can happen again after my death?

Here's my 2c, borrowed from many sources:

the universe is a giant recycling-compost bin. Every part of me used to be something else, will be something else long before I am 'dead'. My trillions of cells and uncountable number of atoms didn't spontaneously arrive at my birth and I've sloughed off more cells than I can imagine in my life so far. Nothing supernatural about the notion that we are made of the stuff of the universe and absorb/dissipate into it all the time

I happened once, not out of nothing, but of the great recycle bin arranging itself

I suppose I may happen again, with no knowledge of my current self. Out of an infinite composted combinations, is it crazy to think I may happen again in some other form?

One life as 'me' is plenty. Imagine how boring it would be to be you forever.

I make no claim that this is correct - just my thoughts
 
I get you 5DN. I love watching Brian Cox and he's always talking about how if the universe is infinite anything that can happen must happen. Of course that's a big 'if'.

Are you familiar with the concept of Boltzman Brains? Dreaming the dream

Quote: The idea is that, according to quantum mechanics, there is energy in empty space which can fluctuate, producing particles as it does so. "If you wait long enough then these fluctuations will form, not just a particle here and a particle there, but a whole complex collection of them. A virus, or a little bunny rabbit, or even a functioning human being," explains Sean Carroll, a theoretical physicist at California Institute of Technology. "The idea is that a brain is the simplest thing that can randomly fluctuate into existence and can still be counted as a conscious being." Such a brain is called a Boltzmann brain.

I guess if these are proposed by physicists then your proposal isn't too far out, as in eventually we could spontaneously appear again out of fluctuations.

I did however read that out of the entire life of the universe until the point of heat death the proportion of time that the universe is favourable to life is infinitesimal so maybe that's a sticking point. We would need infinite space rather than infinite time for it to work.
 
Borges, the human library, on Nietzsche and the eternal return which he developed in i think thus spake zarathrustra.
This doctrine (whose most recent inventor called it the doctrine of the Eter nal Return) may be formulated in the following manner:
The number ofall the atoms that compose the world is immense butfinite, and as such only capable ofafinite (though also immense) number ofpermu tations. In an infinite stretch of time, the number of possible permutations must be run through, and the universe has to repeat itself Once again you will be born from a belly, once again your skeleton will grow, once again this same page will reach your identical hands, once again you willfollow the course of all the hours ofyour life until that ofyour incredible death. Such is the cus tomary order of this argument, from its insipid preliminaries to its enor mous and threatening outcome. It is commonly attributed to Nietzsche.
Before refuting it-an undertaking of which I do not know if I am capable-it may be advisable to conceive, even from afar, of the superhuman numbers it invokes. I shall begin with the atom. The diameter of a hydrogen atom has been calculated, with some margin of error, to be one hundred millionth of a centimeter. This dizzying tininess does not mean the atom is indivisible; on the contrary, Rutherford describes it with the image of a so lar system, made up of a central nucleus and a spinning electron, one hun dred thousand times smaller than the whole atom. Let us leave this nucleus and this electron aside, and conceive of a frugal universe composed of ten atoms. (This is obviously only a modest experimental universe; invisible, for even microscopes do not suspect it; imponderable, for no scale can place a value on it.) Let us postulate as well-still in accordance with Nietzsche's conjecture-that the number of possible changes in this universe is the number of ways in which the ten atoms can be arranged by varying the or der in which they are placed. How many different states can this world
know before an eternal return? The investigation is simple: it suffices to multiply1x2x3x4x5 x6x7 x8x9 x10,atediousoperationthat yields the figure of 3,628,8oo. If an almost infinitesimal particle of the universe is capable of such variety, we should lend little or no faith to any monotony in the cosmos. I have considered ten atoms; to obtain two grams of hydrogen, we would require more than a billion billion atoms. To make the computation of the possible changes in this couple of grams-in other words, to multiply a billion billion by each one of the whole numbers that precedes it-is already an operation that far surpasses my human patience.
I do not know if my reader is convinced; I am not. This chaste, painless squandering of enormous numbers undoubtedly yields the peculiar plea sure of all excesses, but the Recurrence remains more or less Eternal, though in the most remote terms. Nietzsche might reply: "Rutherford's spinning electrons are a novelty for me, as is the idea-scandalous to a philologist that an atom can be divided. However, I never denied that the vicissitudes of matter were copious; I said only that they were not infinite." This plau sible response from Friedrich Zarathustra obliges me to fall back on Georg Cantor and his heroic theory of sets.
Cantor destroys the foundation of Nietzsche's hypothesis. He asserts the perfect infinity of the number of points in the universe, and even in one meter of the universe, or a fraction of that meter. The operation of counting is, for him, nothing else than that of comparing two series. For example, if the first-born sons of all the houses of Egypt were killed by the Angel, ex cept for those who lived in a house that had a red mark on the door, it is clear that as many sons were saved as there were red marks, and an enumer ation of precisely how many of these there were does not matter. Here the quantity is indefinite; there are other groupings in which it is infinite. The set of natural numbers is infinite, but it is possible to demonstrate that, within it, there are as many odd numbers as even.
1 corresponds to 2
3 to4
5 to 6, etc.
This proof is as irreproachable as it is banal, and is no different from the following proof that there are as many multiples of 3018 as there are numbers-without excluding from the latter set the number 3018 and its multiples.
1 2 3 4
corresponds to 3018 to 6036 to 9054
to 12072, etc.
The same can be affirmed of its exponential powers, however rarefied they become as we progress.
corresponds to 2 to 3 to
3018
30182 which is 9,108,324
etc.
A jocose acceptance of these facts has inspired the formula that an infi nite collection-for example, the natural series ofwhole numbers-is a col lection whose members can in turn be broken down into infinite series. (Or rather, to avoid any ambiguity: an infinite whole is a whole that can be the equivalent of one of its subsets.) The part, in these elevated numerical lati tudes, is no less copious than the whole: the precise quantity of points in the universe is the same as the quantity of points in a meter, or a decimeter, or the deepest trajectory of a star. The series of natural numbers is very orderly, that is, the terms that form it are consecutive: 28 precedes 29 and follows 27. The series of points in space (or of instants in time) cannot be ordered in the same way: no number has a successor or an immediate pre decessor. It is like a series of fractions arranged in order of magnitude. What number will we count after Yo? Not 5Xoo, because 10Vooo is closer; not 10Vooo, be cause 20�oo is closer; not 20�oo, because . . . According to Cantor, the same thing happens with points. We can always interpose more of them, in infi nite number. Therefore we must try not to conceive of decreasing sizes. Each point is "already" the final degree of an infinite subdivision.
The clash between Cantor's lovely game and Zarathustra's lovely game is fatal to Zarathustra. If the universe consists of an infinite number of terms, it is rigorously capable of an infinite number of combinations-and the need for a Recurrence is done away with. There remains its mere possi bility, which can be calculated as zero.
II
Nietzsche writes, in the autumn of 1883: "This slow spider dragging itself towards the light of the moon and that same moonlight, and you and I
whispering at the gateway, whispering of eternal things, haven't we already coincided in the past? And won't we happen again on the long road, on this long tremulous road, won't we recur eternally? This was how I spoke, and in an ever lower voice, because my thoughts and what was beyond my thoughts made me afraid." Writes Eudemus, a paraphraser of Aris totle, three centuries or so before the Cross: "If the Pythagoreans are to be believed, the same things will return at precisely their time and you will be with me again and I will repeat this doctrine and my hand will play with this staff, and so on." In the Stoic cosmogony, "Zeus feeds on the world": the universe is cyclically consumed by the fire that engendered it, and resurges from annihilation to repeat an identical history. Once again the diverse seminal particles combine, once again they give form to stones, trees, and men-and even virtues and days, since for the Greeks a substantive number was impossible without some corporeality. Once again every sword and every hero, once again every minutious night of insomnia.
Like the other conjectures of the school of the Porch, that of a general repetition spread across time entered the Gospels (Acts of the Apostles 3:21), along with its technical name, apokatastasis, though with indetermi nate intent. Book XII of St. Augustine's Civitas Dei dedicates several chap ters to the refutation of so abominable a doctrine. Those chapters (which I have before me now) are far too intricate for summary, but their author's episcopal fury seems to fix upon two arguments: one, the gaudy futility of this wheel; the other, the ridiculousness of the Logos dying on the cross like an acrobat in an interminable sequence of performances. Farewells and sui cides lose their dignity if repeated too often; St. Augustine must have thought the same of the Crucifixion. Hence his scandalized rejection of the viewpoint of the Stoics and Pythagoreans, who argued that God's science cannot understand infinite things and that the eternal rotation of the world'" process serves to allow Ged to learn more and familiarize Himself with it. St. Augustine mocks their worthless revolutions and affirms that Je sus is the straight path that allows us to flee from the circular labyrinth of such deceptions.
In the chapter of his Logic that addresses the law of causality, John Stu art Mill maintains that a periodic repetition of history is conceivable-but not true-and cites Virgil's "Messianic eclogue":
Jam redit et virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna
[Now the Maiden returns, the reign of Saturn returns]

Can Nietzsche, the Hellenist, have been ignorant of these "precursors"? Was Nietzsche, author of the fragments on the pre-Socratics, perhaps un aware of a doctrine learned by the disciples of Pythagoras?' This is hard to believe-andfutile. True, Nietzsche has indicated, in a memorable page, the precise spot on which the idea of the Eternal Return visited him: a path in the woods of Silvaplana, near a vast pyramidal block, one midday in August 1881-"six thousand feet beyond men and time." True, this instant is one of Nietzsche's great distinctions. "Immortal the instant in which I engendered the eternal recurrence. For that instant I endure the Recurrence," were the words he would leave ( Unschuld des Werdens II, 1308). Yet, in my opinion, we need not postulate a startling ignorance, nor a human, all too human, confusion between inspiration and memory, nor a crime of vanity. My key to this mystery is grammatical, almost syntactical. Nietzsche knew that the Eternal Recourse is one of the fables, fears, diversions, that eternally recur, but he also knew that the most effective of the grammatical persons is the first. Indeed, we would be justified in saying that, for a prophet, the only grammatical person is the first. It was not possible for Zarathustra to derive his revelation from a philosophical compendium or from the Historia philosophiae graeco-romanae of the surrogate professors Ritter and Preller, for reasons of voice and anachronism, not to speak of typography. The prophetic style does not allow for the use of quotation marks nor the eru dite attestation of books and authors. . . .
If my human flesh can assimilate the brute flesh of a sheep, who can prevent the human mind from assimilating human mental states? Because he rethought it at great length, and endured it, the eternal recurrence of things is now Nietzsche's and does not belong to some dead man who is barely more than a Greek name. I will not insist; Miguel de Unamuno al ready has his page on the adoption of thoughts.
Nietzsche wanted men who were capable of enduring immortality. I say
this in words that appear in his personal notebooks, the Nachlass, where he
also inscribed these others: "If you envision a long peace before you are re
born, I swear to you that you are thinking wrongly. Between the final
instant of consciousness and the first gleam of a new life there is 'no time'
the lapse lasts as long as a bolt of lightning, though billions of years are in
sufficient to measure it. If a self is absent, infinity can be the equivalent of succession.
Before Nietzsche, personal immortality was no more than a blundering hope, a hazy plan. Nietzsche postulates it as a duty and gives it all the ghastly lucidity of insomnia. "Waking, by reason of their continual cares, fears, sorrows, dry brains," (I read in Robert Burton's antique treatise) "is a symptom that much crucifies melancholy men." We are told that Nietzsche endured this crucifixion and had to seek deliverance in the bitterness of chloral hydrate. Nietzsche wanted to be Walt Whitman; he wanted to fall minutely in love with his destiny. He adopted a heroic method: he disin terred the intolerable Greek hypothesis of eternal repetition, and he con trived to make this mental nightmare an occasion for jubilation. He sought out the most horrible idea in the universe and offered it up to mankind's delectation. The languid optimist often imagines himself to be a Nietz schean; Nietzsche confronts him with the circles of the eternal recurrence and spits him out of his mouth.
Nietzsche wrote: "Not to yearn for distant ventures and favors and blessings, but to live in such a way that we wish to come back and live again, and so on throughout eternity." Mauthner objects that to attribute the slightest moral, in other words practical, influence to the hypothesis of eter nal return is to negate the hypothesis-since it is comparable to imagining that something can happen in another way. Nietzsche would answer that the formulation of the eternal return and its extensive moral (in other words, practical) influence and Mauthner's cavils and his refutation of Mauthner's cavils are naught but a few more necessary moments in the his tory of the world, the work of atomic agitations. He could, with reason, re peat the words he had already written: "It suffices that the doctrine of circular repetition be probable or possible. The image of a mere possibility can shatter and remake us. How much has been accomplished by the possi bility of eternal damnation!" And in another passage: "The instant that this idea presents itself, all colors are different-and there is another history."
 
Where is the evidence for this? How do we know it's the same person? How do we know that you today are the same person you were yesterday? By what mechanism might your hypothetical materialist 'come back?'

I can create thousands of theories (for example, is it possible that, given the inherently probablistic nature of the universe, I may wake up as a carrot, and given the googleplexes of time, might we all become carrots?), but unless there's something verifiable, or at the very least, something that ties it into perceivable, verifiable, facts about the universe, it's just...speculation.

We can play the 'what-if' game forever.

Also: be wary of 'quantum mysticism,' which is the belief that, since quantum mechanics doesn't make intuitive sense, we can just take the concepts and run with them, stripping them of all context. That's how we end up with pseudoscience dressed up as verifiable, actual science, which can be very, very dangerous.

Blessings
~ND
 
Nathanial.Dread said:
Where is the evidence for this? How do we know it's the same person? How do we know that you today are the same person you were yesterday? By what mechanism might your hypothetical materialist 'come back?'


~ND

I absolutely love this quote as it makes an erra of explained circumstances happening. No one is the same brought back from an experience as deep as one would perceive. It is all perception to the individual to make them individual from any other. Its individuality, working at its best. To take the best and worst and make something great out of nothing (which we all were once) and making something great.

My best wishes,

dls
 
darklordsson said:
Nathanial.Dread said:
Where is the evidence for this? How do we know it's the same person? How do we know that you today are the same person you were yesterday? By what mechanism might your hypothetical materialist 'come back?'

I absolutely love this quote as it makes an erra of explained circumstances happening. No one is the same brought back from an experience as deep as one would perceive. It is all perception to the individual to make them individual from any other. Its individuality, working at its best. To take the best and worst and make something great out of nothing (which we all were once) and making something great.

What/who am I? Do I want to believe in something? To me, I am just an idea, a concept, a story to which I stick and tell myself in my mind. "True self" is formless and thus all forms and appears only in the now, it (I) is (am) free. Nevertheless, loving myself unconditonally and recognizing myself as the others seems to be my base for making something "great". Love, which is the intention of my actions, feels just so .....

tseuq
 
tseuq said:
darklordsson said:
Nathanial.Dread said:
Where is the evidence for this? How do we know it's the same person? How do we know that you today are the same person you were yesterday? By what mechanism might your hypothetical materialist 'come back?'

I absolutely love this quote as it makes an erra of explained circumstances happening. No one is the same brought back from an experience as deep as one would perceive. It is all perception to the individual to make them individual from any other. Its individuality, working at its best. To take the best and worst and make something great out of nothing (which we all were once) and making something great.

What/who am I? Do I want to believe in something? To me, I am just an idea, a concept, a story to which I stick and tell myself in my mind. "True self" is formless and thus all forms and appears only in the now, it (I) is (am) free. Nevertheless, loving myself unconditonally and recognizing myself as the others seems to be my base for making something "great". Love, which is the intention of my actions, feels just so .....

tseuq

Best idea I have is stop thinking as yourself as an Idea and start thinking yourself as a being that "is", and more of what you are, theres alot some of us need to cope with and start our own paths. Just don't hate the past, it made you who you are now, and if you don't like now, you can change it, any time you want.

Best wishes!

dls
 
darklordsson said:
Best idea I have is stop thinking as yourself as an Idea and start thinking yourself as a being that "is",...

What I mean is, that I don't have to think of myself as anything as a requirement to be. Thus what ever I think of myself is always just an idea, a representational self. Seeing myself as a being that is sounds pretty pure, wow, how great it is to simply be alive!

darklordsson said:
...start our own paths. Just don't hate the past, it made you who you are now, and if you don't like now, you can change it, any time you want.

Om Shiva.

love, tseuq
 
ah have returned to find much deep and profound replies to my OP. cheers guys.

its good to question this stuff such as what makes me me? i'm gunna keep pondering... wonder if this can ever be answered.

big love Nexians
 
To elaborate on ND's post, imagine this hypothetical scenario: An exact replica of you is somehow produced, while the original you is put into a coma. Does the consciousness timeline of the you that is in a coma continue with the replica of you, or is it still unconscious? I think there is a problem of identity, as in if you disappear from one spacetime and reappears in a different space time, "Is it really the same you?" Do you experience continuous conscious or do you die to be replaced by a replica? This argument is often discussed in the context of teleportation or mind-uploading. You might also enjoy reading the Wiki pages on Swampman or the Chinese Room.

Otherwise, I think none of that cuts to the real point of the OP, which is that one cannot subjectively experience death or nothingness. We all agree what happens, objectively, to the human body when one dies. The problem is that subjective death seems paradoxical to those of us who are solipsists at heart (perhaps that's all of us at the moment of death).

To address the OP and subsequent posts, I'd never heard of a Boltzmann Brain before and I think it was a brilliant idea here, but due to the problems of identity mentioned above I don't think that an identical self spontaneously created from vacuum fluctuations changes the fact that the original self is still dormant somewhere in inner space. However, I think that similar fluctuations can cause the dormant self to wake up somehow. I think understanding how the dormant self awakens requires understanding of the nature of the dormant self, which isn't something humans are able to do yet. We can't even understand how consciousness exists in the human brain, much less outside of it. However, based on my subjective experience of consciousness as a self-sustaining state which learns and adapts in order to survive, I think it's possible that it persists after death in some abstract form which might, after a sufficiently long time, reform into the type of mind we are familiar with.
 
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