the mckenna caapi variety

[entheogenic-gnosis]

In the beginning of this lecture mckenna mentions collecting caapi vines in 1976, also saying that most the samples discussed were those collected by himself and partners.

At 1:15 minutes into this lecture terence mentions a "cielo-ayahuasca" Known as "plowman #6041", these were samples that Tim plowman had collected in 1970, he says he started with a single clone, but ended up growing this species fairly extensively.

I've purchased a red ayahuasca (banisteriopsis colorada (?) ) which bares the name of terence mckenna, (picture attached), which personally I enjoy, it's not the most potent, generally requiring around 65 dry grams per person, but it does produce a unique "flavor" of experience, which I particularly enjoy, it compliments the DMT in a rather nice way...

( I have heard many complain about the "mckenna red", though in my experiance it's been a sufficient mono amine oxidase inhibitor in every case, and in my opinion it does have its own subtleties which complement the experience )

Any way, I was wondering, since mckenna claims to have extensively grown "plowman #6041" (which is a cielo-ayahuasca) could this the actual mckenna strain?

Or were these samples that were collected in 1976 by mckenna and partners which mckenna mentions the source of the "mckenna red" caapi?

(Which on my packaging is titled "banisteriopsis colorada; mckenna red" )

Or was mckenna's name simply added to a random banisteriopsis caapi vine for marketing purposes?

(The claim was this was a strain collected by mckenna sometime in the 1970s and grown at botanical dimensions greenhouse... )

-eg

 

[jamie]

"Banisteriopsis colorada" is a meaningless term as far as I know. Botanically, there is no such species.

 

[dragonrider]

I thought that cielo was generally known as 'yellow-vine', while the vine refered to as 'mckenna-vine' is red.

I've actually had some of this mckenna-vine, also refered to as 'hawai-vine', and i liked it a lot. Added a warm, comforting sort of feeling to the experience. A feeling of immersion.
But definately different from the "common" cielo vine, i've had. Maybe it's hawaïan growing conditions, but all of the common cielo i've had did not realy seem to add it's own flavor, as you call it. It merely activated oral DMT, without realy adding anything to it, contrary to this hawaïan vine.

 

[Muskogee Herbman]

I was told that Of The Jungle had the Cielo Strain that McKenna himself collect in Tarapoto Peru, which was then sold to a botanical garden in my region, that a friend bought and gave to me. It looks exactly like the other Cielo cultivar I have.

My 'red' strain on the other hand is totally different. Fuzzy kinda leaves, red stem. was sold to me as B. Muricata

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I thought that cielo was generally known as 'yellow-vine', while the vine refered to as 'mckenna-vine' is red.

I've actually had some of this mckenna-vine, also refered to as 'hawai-vine', and i liked it a lot. Added a warm, comforting sort of feeling to the experience. A feeling of immersion.
But definately different from the "common" cielo vine, i've had. Maybe it's hawaïan growing conditions, but all of the common cielo i've had did not realy seem to add it's own flavor, as you call it. It merely activated oral DMT, without realy adding anything to it, contrary to this hawaïan vine.

Yes, "plowman #6041" is a "cielo-ayahuasca" or a gold/yellow ayahuasca.

Yet the mckenna "banisteriopsis colorada" is labeled as a red vine.

I'm guessing that mckenna certainly would have had plowman #6041 growing at botanical dimentions, and he admits to growing this vine quite extensively...

...or perhaps this "mckenna red" is of a different source. Possibly it was a sample collected in 1976 by mckenna himself.

Is there really a "mckenna red"? Or is it simply a mislabeled "plowman #6041" sample that had been growing in the mckenna greenhouse?

The claim being that "mckenna red" was sourced from a sample growing at botanical dimensions in Hawaii, which mckenna had planted there from a sample collected sometime in the 1970s.

Either "mckenna red" was sourced from Don Fidel, or was collected by mckenna and team in 1976, or it is a plowman #6041...

...or somebody just put the mckenna name on a random caapi vine.

I'm aware "banisteriopsis colorada" is not official nomenclature, phytoextractum May have coined it to designate their red caapi...

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I was told that Of The Jungle had the Cielo Strain that McKenna himself collect in Tarapoto Peru, which was then sold to a botanical garden in my region, that a friend bought and gave to me. It looks exactly like the other Cielo cultivar I have.

My 'red' strain on the other hand is totally different. Fuzzy kinda leaves, red stem. was sold to me as B. Muricata

This is another issue, mckenna speaks about and seems to have collected Cielo ayahuasca almost exclusively, so why then does his name get connected to a red vine?



------

I've been trying to sort all this out...

·Alicia anisopetala (sold as black ayahuasca)

·Banisteriopsis muricata (sold as red ayahuasca)

*Tetrapterys methystica

reviewing Caapi-piníma (Painted caapi) information and discussion on the topic - Open Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

In this link I explore "painted caapi"

Tetrapteris methystica

Several writers - notably Spruce and the German anthropologist Koch-Grünberg - mention more than one "kind" of caapi in the Vaupés basin.

It was my good fortune in 1948 to be able to witness the preparation of, and to take a narcotic drink amongst, the nomadic Makú Indians of an affluent of the Rio Tikie in north-westernmost Brazil. Specimens taken from a flowering vine, from the bark of which a cold water infusion was made without the admixture of any other plants, were found to represent an undescribed species of a malpighiaceous genus closely allied to Banisteriopsis - Tetrapteris methystica.

The beverage prepared from Tetrapteris methystica was a yellowish hue, quite unlike the coffee-brown colour characteristic of all preparations of Banisteriopsis Caapi which I have seen.

A small amount of stem material for chemical study that I gathered from the wild vine from which the type material came was lost in the overturning of my canoe. Consequently, nothing is known chemically of this kind of caapi. That it is highly intoxicating, with effects very like those induced by Banisteriopsis, I can vouch from self-experimentation.

An important point in this connexion is worth considering. Tetrapteris methystica may represent the second "kind" of caapi mentioned by Spruce and KochGrünberg, and it might be that the epithet caapi-pinima ( "painted caapi" ) alludes not to the painted leaves but to the unusual yellowish hue of the drink prepared from it.

...however a yellow hue is common to cielo b. Caapi.

-eg

 

[tregar]

Beautiful pics there Muskogee.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I was told that Of The Jungle had the Cielo Strain that McKenna himself collect in Tarapoto Peru, which was then sold to a botanical garden in my region, that a friend bought and gave to me. It looks exactly like the other Cielo cultivar I have.

My 'red' strain on the other hand is totally different. Fuzzy kinda leaves, red stem. was sold to me as B. Muricata

Out of the the dry samples I have, the ceilo caapi and the banisteriopsis colorada (mckenna red) are identical in appearance. (But again, this is cut and dry sections of vine, so I can't say what the leaf or flower would have looked like.)

But as dragonrider mentioned, the mckenna red does seem to be doing more than mono amine oxidase inhibition, it does seem to add subtleties to the DMT experience...

...out of several tests I'm fairly confident that it's not purely psychosomatic.

-eg

 

[rild]

I have bottle of brew from a bag that looks just like the colorada pictured. Love a bit of it in my aya. But you need to know, what I have needs help.

Tested it. Each milliliter has 6 mills of THH, 0.1 mills of harmaline, and 0.6 mills of harmine. I am not sure if everyone is the same, but THH is a very poor MAOI for me. I like about 300 mills of harmine and 90 of harmaline and 100 of THH in my aya. No amount of THH will get me there.

 

[rild]

Also, I do not think colorada is a caapi.

 

[dreamer042]

I could be wrong here, but as I understand it, Botanical Dimensions preserve is separate from where Terence had his home up on the big volcano, so that may account for the difference in what was likely his personal collection and what has come to market. I'm certain the "Mckenna Red" that is widely available legitimately is coming from the BD preserve.

In theory BD should have a specimen of *every* plant Terence and his team, and later Kat and her team have been able to collect since they started the preserve several decades back. I'm not quite sure why the "Mckenna Red" is the one that made it to market and the others haven't (or at least haven't been listed as being sourced from Mckenna/BD if they have).

Banisteriopsis muricata is a completely different vine/species from the various "colors" of caapi as I understand it, the Colorada (which is spanish for Red) should be an actual caapi, giving moar of a yellow/golden colored brew vs the deep blood red color of the muricata vine.

Confused yet? :?

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I have bottle of brew from a bag that looks just like the colorada pictured. Love a bit of it in my aya. But you need to know, what I have needs help.

Tested it. Each milliliter has 6 mills of THH, 0.1 mills of harmaline, and 0.6 mills of harmine. I am not sure if everyone is the same, but THH is a very poor MAOI for me. I like about 300 mills of harmine and 90 of harmaline and 100 of THH in my aya. No amount of THH will get me there.

Fascinating.

THH has potent neurogenesis potential.

Perhaps it is high levels of THH which makes the "McKenna red" experience unique.

THH is a mild serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and has slightly different pharmacological action than the other harmala alkaloids.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Also, I do not think colorada is a caapi.

I think Phytoextractum coined the "banisteriopsis colorada" title as a means to distinguish their red caapi from other sources.

"banisteriopsis colorada" is not official nomenclature.

the "banisteriopsis colorada" is most definantly a banisteriopsis caapi vine.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I could be wrong here, but as I understand it, Botanical Dimensions preserve is separate from where Terence had his home up on the big volcano, so that may account for the difference in what was likely his personal collection and what has come to market. I'm certain the "Mckenna Red" that is widely available legitimately is coming from the BD preserve.

In theory BD should have a specimen of *every* plant Terence and his team, and later Kat and her team have been able to collect since they started the preserve several decades back. I'm not quite sure why the "Mckenna Red" is the one that made it to market and the others haven't (or at least haven't been listed as being sourced from Mckenna/BD if they have).

Banisteriopsis muricata is a completely different vine/species from the various "colors" of caapi as I understand it, the Colorada (which is spanish for Red) should be an actual caapi, giving moar of a yellow/golden colored brew vs the deep blood red color of the muricata vine.

Confused yet? :?

Mckenna's actual Hawaiian home was on separate property from the BD green house.

Botanical dimensions was founded in 1985, and most of these caapi samples were collected in the mid to late 1970s...

...I'm just curious as to the actual source of these "McKenna red" vines.

I have documentation of plowman #6041 (a cielo vine) being collected and extensively grown by McKenna and botanical dimensions...

There's also documentation of McKenna and team collecting vines in 1976, and according to McKenna his shaman "Don-Fidel" provided him with samples which were taken back and cultivated as well...

it's been quite a while since I was doing investigation here, so I need to re-fresh memory on this topic...

-eg

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I had a whole reply that just died in an internet hiccup, so please excuse the relative brevity, as I'm rather bummed that my prior post is gone.

None of the things being discussed as "species" or "varieties" in this thread are species or varieties. Industrial botany doesn't recognize any subspecies or varieties of B. caapi. "Plowman 6041" in the case of Mckenna is a cultivar, not a subspecies or variety, and Dennis notates it as such in the literature where he cites it (although he uses the more convoluted method of a non-italicized parenthetical rather than the cv. notation, the designation still stands as cultivar).

We've covered this in other threads, but even in the video in the OP, Mckenna states "The ayasqueros recognize types of ayahuasca more differentiated than the species." This is all well and good, but it's entirely unhelpful when trying to clarify these plants within the context of industrial botany for two reasons.

1) Botany doesn't recognize these "subspecies" and/or "varieties." No industrial botanist, afaik, has engaged in any treatment or monograph of these plants. We essentially have nowhere to park any of these folk designations within botanical nomenclature or taxonomic systems because, as far as industrial botany is concerned, they don't exist. Even the most argued-for "varietals" (caupuri and tukanaca) have no industrial botanical justification for varietal designation.

This creates additional problems when we consider that:

2) Different groups of indigenous folks have different names for the "same" plants. Or they draw different differentiations between folk varieties. Or they have similar names for different plants. Without having industrial botanical distinctions (or some other "standard" reference) for these folk varietals, we have no standard through which to compare these different folk varietals, we can only compare them against each other, which lends a mercurial quality to the attempt at codifying them and leaves us just as lost vis a vis industrial botany.


When you then throw in vendors and profit motives, all bets are off. We've already had vendors admit to us that they sell plants as "black ayahuasca" because if they used the botanical name(s), no one would buy it because they wouldn't recognize it.

tl;dr
-There is no mckenna caapi variety (at most it's a cultivar).
-Color distinctions are folk distinctions and have no tie-ins to latin nomenclature or industrial botany.
-Vendors and preserves have their own motivations for what makes it to market and may have no interest in divulging what they've got on-hand, or where it came from, to the general public. They have their own interests relating to their sourcing, operations, safety, etc. Take everything with a grain of salt. (I don't mean this negatively, just that there are reasons for discretion on their end)
-You can't make anything approaching meaningful ID from dried bark/vine.
-You can't trust vendors, especially on dried plant ID.

 

[syberdelic]

THH is a mild serotonin reuptake inhibitor, and has slightly different pharmacological action than the other harmala alkaloids.

Would this explain why the ayahuasca that I consumed in the jungle gave me more of a serotonin syndrome effect than my home brewed pharmahuasca? (harmine HCl + DMT citrate)
In the jungle, there was a burning warmth coming off my spine, neck, and back as well as profuse sweating and of course profound confusion and vertigo. I had originally chalked up the confusion to the DMT and the vertigo to high levels of harmine, but my pharmahuasca had only a small portion of these components while being just as powerful.

My hypothesis until now was that to recreate the jungle experience, I would need much more harmine than is needed for MAO inhibition. The jungle brew was caapi vine and chakruna leaves in unknown proportions and concentrations but my oral chemical sensors indicate that tannin levels were through the roof.

By the way, I was very uncomfortable with the jungle experience and am not actually trying to recreate it. I have been considering adding THH to my brew both to make a more authentic experience and to add more of the dream state effect that is linked to THH. I originally thought that these effects were caused by my body trying to excrete the non-alkaloid components through my skin and a tannin overload, but with this new information I see that it might have been THH since it can be present at much higher levels in caapi that harmine.

 

[dreamer042]

It's worth noting that THH level in the vine material itself may not necessarily reflect the amount of THH in a finished brew. As you can see in the caapi analysis thread all samples of vine tested were quite low in THH. However THH levels were significantly higher (very near, or in some cases even exceeding the amount of harmine present) in at least one analysis of several samples of brewed ayahusca (see attached table from pg 35 of the above linked study).

It's very likely these increased THH levels are largely related to the prolonged boiling process. This is also discussed in the above linked study, and more accessibly in this thread by endlessness.

What we could really use is for someone to boil rue seeds for 10 hours and run the resultant brew through a mass spec checking specifically for THH content. I suspect it would be quite high.

 

[syberdelic]

This sounds like something I would enjoy embarking on but some patience will be required as I need to get my hands on some raw materials and equipment first and I will not have the time or money for this for at least a couple months.

I will proceed with cappi, rue, and purified harmine HCl. Samples will be taken at various points in time through the boiling process to see if there is a progression towards THH.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I had a whole reply that just died in an internet hiccup, so please excuse the relative brevity, as I'm rather bummed that my prior post is gone.

None of the things being discussed as "species" or "varieties" in this thread are species or varieties. Industrial botany doesn't recognize any subspecies or varieties of B. caapi. "Plowman 6041" in the case of Mckenna is a cultivar, not a subspecies or variety, and Dennis notates it as such in the literature where he cites it (although he uses the more convoluted method of a non-italicized parenthetical rather than the cv. notation, the designation still stands as cultivar).

We've covered this in other threads, but even in the video in the OP, Mckenna states "The ayasqueros recognize types of ayahuasca more differentiated than the species." This is all well and good, but it's entirely unhelpful when trying to clarify these plants within the context of industrial botany for two reasons.

1) Botany doesn't recognize these "subspecies" and/or "varieties." No industrial botanist, afaik, has engaged in any treatment or monograph of these plants. We essentially have nowhere to park any of these folk designations within botanical nomenclature or taxonomic systems because, as far as industrial botany is concerned, they don't exist. Even the most argued-for "varietals" (caupuri and tukanaca) have no industrial botanical justification for varietal designation.

This creates additional problems when we consider that:

2) Different groups of indigenous folks have different names for the "same" plants. Or they draw different differentiations between folk varieties. Or they have similar names for different plants. Without having industrial botanical distinctions (or some other "standard" reference) for these folk varietals, we have no standard through which to compare these different folk varietals, we can only compare them against each other, which lends a mercurial quality to the attempt at codifying them and leaves us just as lost vis a vis industrial botany.


When you then throw in vendors and profit motives, all bets are off. We've already had vendors admit to us that they sell plants as "black ayahuasca" because if they used the botanical name(s), no one would buy it because they wouldn't recognize it.

tl;dr
-There is no mckenna caapi variety (at most it's a cultivar).
-Color distinctions are folk distinctions and have no tie-ins to latin nomenclature or industrial botany.
-Vendors and preserves have their own motivations for what makes it to market and may have no interest in divulging what they've got on-hand, or where it came from, to the general public. They have their own interests relating to their sourcing, operations, safety, etc. Take everything with a grain of salt. (I don't mean this negatively, just that there are reasons for discretion on their end)
-You can't make anything approaching meaningful ID from dried bark/vine.
-You can't trust vendors, especially on dried plant ID.

While I appreciate the effort, I assumed that all of this was well understood when entering this thread.

The "McKenna red" was never meant to be a variety, it was a name meant to distinguish a vine with a particular origin and source, it's supposed to be spawned from samples collected by Terrence McKenna and team and grown at his botanical dimensions green house.


I'm aware of vendors misrepresentation of Alicia anisopetala as "black ayahuasca" as well as selling misrepresented vines related to caapi.

and in THIS thread I explore "painted caapi" and look into Tetrapterys methystica.

However, I actually enjoy the "McKenna red", and have long speculated that this distinction was more than psychosomatic, I also enjoy the origin story and purported history connected to this sample, and if there was some way to confirm that these "McKenna vines" are actually spawned from samples collected by McKenna and grown at BD, than I would be interested...

regardless, this does not appear to be a situation of vendor scamming, these "McKenna red" vines are top quality, they have large diameter, they show obvious age, and you can tell they were cultivated in prime conditions, I also purchased some cielo vine from the same vendor, also top quality...and they charge the same price regardless of the title given to the vine. (Picture is of "cielo vine", "McKenna colorada vine", and a kilo of ACRB and some peganum harmala seeds)

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

It's worth noting that THH level in the vine material itself may not necessarily reflect the amount of THH in a finished brew. As you can see in the caapi analysis thread all samples of vine tested were quite low in THH. However THH levels were significantly higher (very near, or in some cases even exceeding the amount of harmine present) in at least one analysis of several samples of brewed ayahusca (see attached table from pg 35 of the above linked study).

It's very likely these increased THH levels are largely related to the prolonged boiling process. This is also discussed in the above linked study, and more accessibly in this thread by endlessness.

What we could really use is for someone to boil rue seeds for 10 hours and run the resultant brew through a mass spec checking specifically for THH content. I suspect it would be quite high.

Yes, I had realized this as well.

Abstract
Twenty nine decoctions of Banisteriopsis caapi from four different sources and one specimen of B. caapi paste were analyzed for N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), tetrahydroharmine (THH), harmaline and harmine. Other plants were also used in the preparation of these products, typically Psychotria viridis, which provides DMT. There were considerable variations in alkaloid profiles, both within and between sample sources. DMT was not detected in all samples. Additional THH may be formed from both harmine and harmaline during the preparation of these products. The alkaloid composition of one decoction sample did not change significantly after standing at room temperature for 80 days, but the initial acidic pH was neutralized by natural fermentation after 50 days.

Various alkaloid profiles in decoctions of Banisteriopsis caapi - PubMed

Twenty nine decoctions of Banisteriopsis caapi from four different sources and one specimen of B. caapi paste were analyzed for N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), tetrahydroharmine (THH), harmaline and harmine. Other plants were also used in the preparation of these products, typically Psychotria...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'm sorting this out just as much as anybody else, and have yet to reach any conclusions, it's been difficult just getting the information straight.

-eg