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The qualitative differences from clandestine LSD productions - some questions on chemistry

Hey there,

I recently came upon a batch of LSD, that surprised me.

I know that there is a lot of talk going on, probably urban legends for the most part, from the effects of different batches of clandestin produced LSD.

To make an example: I usually have a muscle tension in my face and a somehow metallic taste in my mouth while tripping. This get me to a point where I started to accepting this as a normal and usual side effect of LSD intake. Even if not really nice, it isn't a big problem so I accepted this phenomena in body feeling.

But some batches didn't tend to do this, at least in my experience. For sure, set, setting and dosage can make a whole difference, but I am intrigued if anybody has reliable information on side effects of improper synthesis? How and why?

I came across several informations but it always seems to be something like a heard of.

What makes an LSD batch good? And what are the outcomes and effects of several residues, or minor products, resulting from incomplete or improper synthesis?

This is a question I ask myself a lot these days and I would be glad if someone can point me on reliable paperwork or other informations...

Nice trip!
 
I once read somewhere that proper LSD purification consists of fractional crystallisation and/or chromatography to separate the LSD from the inactive iso-LSD, followed by isomerising the iso-LSD in methanolic KOH to an equilibrium mixture of LSD and iso. The separation process is repeated in order to improve yields for the overall procees, but an some point it becomes a case of diminishing returns. In light of all this, the quality of an LSD experience, as far as I understand, comes down to the degree of care that the manufacturer puts into this separation process (since it will also clean up any other impurities left over from the synthesis).

I can't promise you much in the way of reading materials right now, but if something comes up I'll try and remember to put it here.
 
Metallic taste, sure it's not Nbome? Maybe some of your batches have been Nbome being sold as LSD.
FWIW, back in the 90's I had acid that was permeated with that metallic taste in terms of the experience itself, and not the taste of the blotter. Suffice to say, NBOMe's hadn't been invented at that point.
 
The metallic taste is part of the effect, not the actual taste of the blotter.

For sure there is a lot of Nbome going around lately, and TLC can help to prevent misidentification.

But in the everyday life it is not really practical, I would do TLC if I buy a whole batch, but not if somebody shares a drop or blotter with me in a party.

Anyway, I would really like to understand the methodology and theory behind "proper LSD".

You can always hear people saying that this or that batch is really excellent in comparison to another one, and, even if in most cases this seems only wishful thinking, when it comes to really experienced users and their exposure, I could imagine that there is something to it.

I am sure that LSD is not the same thing like "a cube is a cube is a cube" and that proper synthesis and purification can make a whole lot of a difference.

What about the lysergic prodrugs?

I never tried them consciously, are there any qualitative differences to "street acid"?

What about ALD? I heard a story that the actual "orange sunshine" from Nick Sand was ALD, which would explain the huge difference in the experience it can provide.

Edit: I checked this briefly. Here is what Tim Scully says:


"The Orange Sunshine we delivered was LSD 25. ALD 52 was an ill-advised desperate defense strategy that failed miserably... The story of Orange Sunshine is complicated by the fact that The Brotherhood distributed LSD from more than one manufacturer as Orange Sunshine. "Nick and I made the original Orange Sunshine in Windsor. That was the last lab I worked in making LSD. Ron Stark managed several LSD labs in Europe and most of his output was tableted and sold as Orange Sunshine. At least some of the LSD that his labs made was not pure."[9]


Apparently ALD 52 comes with less body tension according to some reports in Shulgins TIHKAL.
 
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Reagent testing is a quicker way to test 1/4 of a tab. The difference may not be in the synthesis as much as dose variations between them plus tripping is always such a subjective thing anyway.
 
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Love this thread topic. Eager to add my twenty-five cents.

I will preface by saying LSD has been my entheogen of choice for about twelve years. I use LSD both in party settings and ceremonial settings - always intentionally. I have lost count of the number of doses I have taken - maybe 400-500? This is in no way a brag or ego stroke, only to give an idea of my relationship with this particular medicine.

There are a few things I have inferred through frequent use over a long period of time, acquiring from different sources, using both blotter and liquid. None of what I am about to relay is based on a measured, controlled study or lab grade analysis of substances.

Firstly, LSD is difficult to synthesize. This is not an amateur-hour attempt. The folks earnestly producing LSD are skilled chemists. Like any skill, practice over time refines capabilities. I think it goes without saying that there are "less or more perfect" LSD batches in the sense of the level of delicacy and skill that was present during that particular synthesis. Just as when one extracts DMT, if a little lye is carried over, it can be seen in the resulting product, so any minor error or lack of precision in the synthesis process would likely produce a similar, observable change in the resulting substance, no matter how great or small.

Second, I know through experience that LSD is an energetic medicine. There is a real reason all of the hippies of the sixties and seventies were always on about the "vibes". LSD enhances our ability to perceive subtle vibrations (heh) such as feelings (which express themselves as electromagnetic vibrations emitted from the brain and heart), intentions, and even the thoughts of others. To add to this line of thought; around 1999, a Japanese business man named Masaru Emoto photographed the effect of thoughts and words (both spoken and written) on water.
Emoto claimed that water was a "blueprint for our reality" and that emotional "energies" and "vibrations" could change its physical structure. His water crystal experiments consisted of exposing water in glasses to various words, pictures, or music, then freezing it and examining the ice crystals' aesthetic properties with microscopic photography. He claimed that water exposed to positive speech and thoughts created visually "pleasing" ice crystals, and that negative intentions yielded "ugly" ice formations
The photos from the experiments are published in several books, and also available online on several websites, including this one.
To conclude this thought and second point in a sensible way: I strongly believe the chemist - him/herself, and their current state of being, thoughts, emotions, etc, while synthesizing the LSD, have an impact on the effects experienced by the consumer.

Third - To your point here:
For sure, set, setting and dosage can make a whole difference
In my experience, of all of the entheogens/psys/phenethylamines I have taken, set and setting influence LSD the most. I sometimes experience some of the side-effects you described, especially the muscle tightness. My appetite usually gets suppressed pretty intensely too, at least for the first six hours. I have found that taking magnesium the week leading up to your trip, if you don't take it regularly, can make a big difference in muscle tension, especially in the face and jaw. I frequently feed my friends magnesium supplements when we are at festivals and many of them report (anecdotally) less jaw clenching while rolling on MDMA or tripping on L.

LSD also seems to be a slight vasoconstrictor, again, IME. I have found, through self experimentation, that 75-150mg of CBD [oral tincture] an hour before (or even at the time of dose) can make a big difference in my overall bodily experience, especially in the way of minimizing "acid shivers" and muscular tension. Some friends (again, anecdotally) report feeling more comfortable in their flesh-suit after eating citrus while tripping on LSD. I am not sure of the connection here.

Fourth - Carrier alcohol and blotter dyes. LSD is a crystal, dissolved into an alcohol, usually ethanol. If the chemist who made your LSD used a different alcohol, this could effect the taste. I understand clearly that your metallic taste is an effect during the trip and not the taste of the substance, to clarify - just covering all the bases here.
I rarely experience nausea on LSD, but when I do, I know it is due to the dye on the blotter tab (again, through self experimentation over time). So much to the point that when using blotter, I will typically suck on the tab until it feels like a soggy spitball (~30 minutes?) and then relieve myself of it's burden by spitting it out. The metallic taste you are experiencing could be a reaction to a dye on your blotter. Just an educated guess.

Fifth -
What makes an LSD batch good?
Firstly, the obvious; no errors and clean reagents during synthesis. I would personally add a pure heart and calm state of mind of the working chemist.
Let's talk about varying effects batch-to-batch, though. I have had batches of blotter that were intensely inebriating; big, wavy peaks with very pronounced visuals, difficulty keeping eyes open, lack of interest in material reality. I have had vials of liquid that produced a seemingly opposite effect: a gentle, long (almost 4 hours) peak, increased desire to engage socially and with material existence, sensory experience, etc. Both were obviously LSD experiences and had far more similarities than differences, but there are definitely noticeable and semi-measurable differences in the nuanced effects of different batches of LSD. In my experience, I would say the particular effects that seem to vary most are:
  • energy level (desire to move/engage vs laydown in a trance)
  • the relative intensity of sensory distortions (esp visuals) in relation to the intensity of the head/heart space. Some LSD I have taken has me feeling intensely cosmic and expanded and unified while producing visuals that are gentle, non-invasive, and relatively "tame". Others, when yielding the same degree of expansion, seem to be coupled with an intense sensory experience, astounding visuals that are impossible to ignore, etc.
  • duration of peak - I have in the last month taken one batch of LSD that has a very pronounced peak that lasts about 2 hours, and another that has a very gradual, gentle peak, which seems to last longer, closer to 4 hours.
I am very curious to know if these effects also seem to modulate between batches for others, or if others experience variation in difference effects than I. Please let me know!!!!!

Lastly, a question or two: Do you take lithium or iron supplements or anything else like that? How is your oral hygiene? These things can make your mouth taste metallic - it may be that the LSD is simply making you more aware of the metallic taste that was already there :)

I really enjoy this thread topic - thank you for starting us off @donfoolio

Save travels <3
Sv
 
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Excellent coverage, @Subtlevibrations. I agree with pretty much all points you listed above. I have admittedly been irresponsible over the years when working with LSD, because the only testing I've done on it has been with Ehrlich reagent. Technically speaking, I have no idea which form of LSD have I taken, and whether or not some of those supposed LSD batches were not something else entirely, like AL-LAD. Do as I say, not as I do :LOL:

But the one thing I've always noticed is that it makes me so sensitive to energy and vibration that I just cannot be in a crowd while on it. A loud music festival is literally the worst place for me to be while tripping on acid. I personally always, without exception, gravitate towards being all alone in nature (following all the safety guidelines, of course!) because I connect with nature in a way that nothing else makes me connect. It's a symbiotic, exhilarating bond that I wouldn't trade for anything.

But that's my approach, and it definitely doesn't have to be this way for others. I can't say I've tasted metal while chewing on a tab, though. At least I don't recall.
 
What about ALD? I heard a story that the actual "orange sunshine" from Nick Sand was ALD, which would explain the huge difference in the experience it can provide.

...

Apparently ALD 52 comes with less body tension according to some reports in Shulgins TIHKAL.
I had my ALD-52 tested by Kykeon Analytics and the results from the lab were: ALD-52 83 ug; LSD 1 ug; iso-LSD 0.5 ug

So ALD-52 really is a different substance compared to LSD-25.

For me ALD-52 has a less anxious come-up and makes me more fuzzy (often a bit too fuzzy) in the head compared to good LSD-25.


My experiences with LSD-25 itself were highly different per batch, each bottle had it's own quality: ranging from pretty bad with a lot of jaw tension to almost angelic with seemingly no muscle tension at all and amazing visuals.



Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
Just stating the obvious here. CBD has shown us that a compound related to another compound (CBD and THC here) can have dramatic effects modifying a compound while having very minimal effects itself. (CBD is not very psychoactive itself but will modify THC dramatically)

Back to our regularly scheduled, and very interesting, program.
 
So we now should have those different mythical grades of LSD-25 like needlepoint etc collected and have that tested by Kykeon Analysis.

Is that a viable idea to start our research with? Collecting data about those 'grades' so that we can further build our hypothesis on that data?


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
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Thanks for all the contribution. It feels good to see that I am not alone with my questions.

I will absolutely pass the vials that our around in my area to kykeon. There are at least three batches.

Two drops, coming supposedly from Switzerland and California (after all, if this is just a marketing thing, I don't know) - people here always associate Californian LSD with quality, which is obviously not that easy and maybe strict nonsense.

The "Californian" acid at least gives me tensions and metallic taste - but to get this right: I love the effects, I just looking to search the differences concerning quality.

There is also windowpane acid going around and in my opinion and limited experience, it is really clear and gentle.

Maybe this is due to the absence of excipients like ethanol. As I heard, windowpane acid is pure crystal mixed into gelatine.

So, analyzing them can at least tell if there are other substances than LSD inside, and of course the dosage.

We had microdots here going around before, and we tested reagents on them to see if it was LSD.
They were really strong and the trip lasted for about 20 hours. A friend told me, that he had made an analysis where they found a DOx, in addition to a high dose of LSD.

Like the analysis is a little bit expensive, I start with the drops that are supposedly will be around the black market here for a while.

Even looking on the analysis page of Kykeon and other harm reduction laboratories is interesting since there is already some material that has been analyzed.

Thank again to all of you for your contribution.

The energy thing is really something to take into account, I agree. Interesting thought.

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Concerning dosage, it is dropping every year a little bit. It is merely rare these days to came upon blotter with more than 100 mcg, to compare:

The standard tab acid from the brotherhood of eternal love was dosed at 275 mcg.

This is a huge amount compared to today's standard, and that would equivalent 3 or 4 blotters to have the same dosage.

In a swiss drug checking laboratory 12% of tested blotters contained other substances than LSD.
Besides some samples with Nbomce and DOx (2%) mostly found was the inactive Iso-LSD, certainly linked to improper storage.
 

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Some videos, that might be of interest for some. The first one shows a Dutch chemist producing 1-V-LSD and other lysergides.

You can see nicely the crystallisation process and the Chromatography column.
Starting at 3:30 min.
Even if the video is in German, the Dutch guy speaks English. He says that the whole process take up to one month, due to alternate synthesis routes, like he apparently don't use any of the common precursors. Would be interesting to know a little bit more about the procedure.



In the second one from Hamiltons pharmacopeia, that most of you will know already, David Nichols talks a little bit about the recrystallization and purification step (starts at 19:45 min).


 
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So we now should have those different mythical grades of LSD-25 like needlepoint etc collected and have that tested by Kykeon Analysis.

Is that a viable idea to start our research with? Collecting data about those 'grades' so that we can further build our hypothesis on that data?


Kind regards,

The Traveler
Will I be able to contribute to this effort, living in the states? This is an absolutely phenomenal idea - if enough samples are tested, perhaps my theory of the chemist’s influence can be scientifically indicated :D
 
From: Acid Dreams: The Complete Social History of LSD: The CIA, the Sixties, and Beyond by Martin A. Lee

At first Owsley produced LSD in a powder form that could be doled out in gelatin
capsules. He also sold it as a liquid ("Mother's Milk"), tinted light blue so that
distributors could keep track of which sugar cubes had been spiked. But it was hard
to control the dosage with this method, so Owsley invested in a professional pill
press and soon he started dyeing his tablets a different color each time he turned out
a new shipment. Although there was no difference between the tablets (each
contained a carefully measured 250 micrograms), street folklore ascribed specific
qualities to every color: red was said to be exceptionally mellow, green was edgy,
and blue was the perfect compromise.
 
@dreamer042 does the book mention how frequently he came back to use the same color??? So intrigued to read this; clearly seems to indicate that something other than chemical make up (something non-physical) was influencing the experience.
Do we know what kind of coloring? I wonder if the side effects that we now know are produced by food coloring, were simply being enhanced by the LSD? I suppose that is a possibility as well.
 
A classic question indeed ...
Technically, even a dirty LSD has such a minimal amount of other stuff... i mean, what is active at that dosage...
But there's much we don't know - as pointed out , specific interactions with the impurities, and also much more subtle things far from the reach of science at the moment
The magic hides in the small cracks of our modelling of reality
What i got from people deeper in the field, what that the precursos used (either natural from ergot, or a complelty different route) influence the results ; the more synthetic have all the objective effects, but doesn't have the spark. I tried both kinds (without knowing what is what) and the empirical results fits with that idea - but unfortunatly the dataset is too small... oh noo.... we gonna have to test that again...:whistle:
 
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