The value of THH?

[Here&Now]

Alright, so I just went down a major rabbit hole looking into details about the use of THH along with DMT. I stumbled on a user's posts who's named Tregar, on this forum as well as others. This guy spoke at great length about the awesome potential of THH, and he provided what seemed like helpful information. I thought I was really onto something interesting.

But when I got to the bottom of the rabbit hole, I came to discover that it's very likely he was actually a former Nexus member named 69ron, who had been banned years ago due to controversy about inaccurate claims and dishonest marketing. Once that was brought to light, Tregar and all the alt accounts were banned on this forum as well as others.

I must admit, my enthusiasm for THH took a blow, lol. He was definitely its greatest champion in terms of hyping it up.

I do have some experience with THH in the form of pharmahuasca (Harmine+THH+DMT), but I'm considering using it as a sole harmala along with DMT. Similar to the way 69ron was claiming to use oral THH and sublingual DMT (with an extra ingredient for absorption that I don't understand), I'd probably try oral THH and IM DMT.

So, in your guys' experience, is THH anywhere near as good as he made it out to be? Especially in a scenario where harmine is left out of the picture?

 

[shroombee]

It’s legal (in most countries), is inexpensive, and can be purchased online. Or you can make it yourself. So try it and let us know your thoughts. I didn’t perform rigorous tests, but the times I used it with mushrooms and mescaline, I thought it was almost too strong and it interferes with my sleep - keeping me up all night. Since I have plenty of the base medicine for personal use (mushrooms, mescaline), I don’t need to add THH to potentiate effects. So the remainder of my THH sits in the freezer. I didn’t do enough experiments with DMT to say anything helpful.

 

[Here&Now]

Thanks guys, that information was helpful.

I guess when it comes down to it, the only way to really know is to give it a try. I'll report back if I have anything worthwhile to add.

 

[shroombee]

could you elaborate on how it compares to rue/caapi/harm(al)ine?

Checking my notes from a few years ago to answer this question... I’ve only used THH with oral DMT, mushrooms, and mescaline. For oral DMT, we’re using at least 100 mg of harmine to prevent the DMT from being broken down in the gut. Adding around 50 mg THH, the general pattern in my experiments is that the trip is more intense, and I’m usually glad I didn’t add more THH. Some of my journal entries note increased dizzyness, more intense CEV, difficulty meditating (I like meditating during the onset), and needing to lie down.

For mushrooms, the best I can say is to start low when adding harmine or THH (I haven’t combined mushrooms with rue, caapi, or harmaline). Harmine/THH can double the intensity and length of the trip, so be careful. BTW, I hear from multiple friends that a low dose of harmine (10-20 mg) is lovely with cannabis. Maybe I should have them try cannabis with THH.

For 500 mg mescaline citrate, 200 mg of THH boosted a light/standard trip to a standard/heavy trip. Same general comments - I’m glad I didn’t do a higher dose of THH.

Maybe the theme here in my trips notes, along with the notable sleep depriving effects, is that THH is too mentally stimulating for me or it promotes anxiety in addition to enhancing some of the trip effects like visuals. That might be why I’m inevitably glad I didn’t dose higher.

 

[Mindlusion]

Alright, so I just went down a major rabbit hole looking into details about the use of THH along with DMT. I stumbled on a user's posts who's named Tregar, on this forum as well as others. This guy spoke at great length about the awesome potential of THH, and he provided what seemed like helpful information. I thought I was really onto something interesting.

But when I got to the bottom of the rabbit hole, I came to discover that it's very likely he was actually a former Nexus member named 69ron, who had been banned years ago due to controversy about inaccurate claims and dishonest marketing. Once that was brought to light, Tregar and all the alt accounts were banned on this forum as well as others.

I must admit, my enthusiasm for THH took a blow, lol. He was definitely its greatest champion in terms of hyping it up.

I do have some experience with THH in the form of pharmahuasca (Harmine+THH+DMT), but I'm considering using it as a sole harmala along with DMT. Similar to the way 69ron was claiming to use oral THH and sublingual DMT (with an extra ingredient for absorption that I don't understand), I'd probably try oral THH and IM DMT.

So, in your guys' experience, is THH anywhere near as good as he made it out to be? Especially in a scenario where harmine is left out of the picture?

Just because he had ulterior motives doesn't necessarily discount THH, its a very unique compound. But keep in mind its different from harmine/harmaline, it doesn't act as potently as a reversible MAO-A inhibitor like harmine does, if at all. And if you want to experiment with IM DMT, I recommend you still use an MAOI inhibtor (just use the standard THH+harmine mixture, not purified THH, or use a combination of the two if you want high THH and low harmine), just keep the doses low. Without an inhibitor it still gets metabolized quickly enough via that ROA that the experience is underwhelming unless you dose very high, which isn't economical, and it causes a lot of irritation in the muscle.. No matter how pure the DMT fumarate is, it always irritates the muscle at lot and can be quite painful the next day, so definitely dont want to have to use a lot

 

[Here&Now]

Just because he had ulterior motives doesn't necessarily discount THH, its a very unique compound.

That's a very valid point, thanks.

But keep in mind its different from harmine/harmaline, it doesn't act as potently as a reversible MAO-A inhibitor like harmine does, if at all. And if you want to experiment with IM DMT, I recommend you still use an MAOI inhibtor (just use the standard THH+harmine mixture, not purified THH, or use a combination of the two if you want high THH and low harmine), just keep the doses low. Without an inhibitor it still gets metabolized quickly enough via that ROA that the experience is underwhelming unless you dose very high, which isn't economical, and it causes a lot of irritation in the muscle.. No matter how pure the DMT fumarate is, it always irritates the muscle at lot and can be quite painful the next day, so definitely dont want to have to use a lot

I mentioned using intramuscular injection in the OP, but I should clarify that I always inject psychedelics subcutaneously. I said I was IMing to avoid confusion, because most people don't use SC injection or are even aware it's a good option. But I actually prefer it, and it has the bonus that I rarely get any kind of injection discomfort whatsoever.

I've only injected a couple times with DMT though, so I lack experience. I appreciate the tip that it can still be a little underwhelming without adding an MAOI, I'll keep that in mind as I experiment.

 

[Mindlusion]

That's a very valid point, thanks.


I mentioned using intramuscular injection in the OP, but I should clarify that I always inject psychedelics subcutaneously. I said I was IMing to avoid confusion, because most people don't use SC injection or are even aware it's a good option. But I actually prefer it, and it has the bonus that I rarely get any kind of injection discomfort whatsoever.

I've only injected a couple times with DMT though, so I lack experience. I appreciate the tip that it can still be a little underwhelming without adding an MAOI, I'll keep that in mind as I experiment.

I use subcutaneous (SC) administration as well and generally avoid deep intramuscular (IM) injections since they're unnecessary most of the time. I still find the irritation from SC injections to be fairly high compared to other substances, ketamine, for example, I experience no pain or muscle soreness at all. The irritation tends to worsen with repeated injections in the same area. With a single injection, it’s barely noticeable, but if you're doing multiple injections in a week, it becomes much more apparent, compared to something like ketamine. It might just be that my body has a stronger inflammatory response to tryptamines, as I seem to react this way to all of them.

But you are right as well irritation seems to be worse with IM in general, part of that is just trauma, larger gauge, (I use 5/8" 26g for IM, vs 30g or 31g for SC), 5/8" is not extremely deep either but 1" is very deep, not at all necessary, unless maybe you have more subcutaneous fat. IM is best used for injections that contain high volume (anything close to 1mL) or when rapid absorption is desired, SC is not extremely slow but there can be a difference with large volumes , with small volumes the difference is imperceptible (0.2 mL or 200 units is typical). with DMT fumarate solubility is not a problem and neither is dose, so any volume can be used. Ketamine has a much lower solubility so high volumes can't be avoided if dosing high, and it benefits from a rapid absorption, so IM is better used in that case.

 

[Here&Now]

I use subcutaneous (SC) administration as well and generally avoid deep intramuscular (IM) injections since they're unnecessary most of the time. I still find the irritation from SC injections to be fairly high compared to other substances, ketamine, for example, I experience no pain or muscle soreness at all. The irritation tends to worsen with repeated injections in the same area. With a single injection, it’s barely noticeable, but if you're doing multiple injections in a week, it becomes much more apparent, compared to something like ketamine. It might just be that my body has a stronger inflammatory response to tryptamines, as I seem to react this way to all of them.

But you are right as well irritation seems to be worse with IM in general, part of that is just trauma, larger gauge, (I use 5/8" 26g for IM, vs 30g or 31g for SC), 5/8" is not extremely deep either but 1" is very deep, not at all necessary, unless maybe you have more subcutaneous fat. IM is best used for injections that contain high volume (anything close to 1mL) or when rapid absorption is desired, SC is not extremely slow but there can be a difference with large volumes , with small volumes the difference is imperceptible (0.2 mL or 200 units is typical). with DMT fumarate solubility is not a problem and neither is dose, so any volume can be used. Ketamine has a much lower solubility so high volumes can't be avoided if dosing high, and it benefits from a rapid absorption, so IM is better used in that case.

Wow! I did not expect to find someone else with similar (or likely even more) experience than myself with injecting. This is excellent info, thanks. To be honest, I've never even tried IM or IV. I started with SC, and once I realized how well it works, I never saw a need to venture into the other areas of the injecting ROA. Though maybe they're worth a try, if for no other reason than to know what I'm talking about when discussing them.

Regarding ketamine, at least for me, SC has worked pretty well in terms of producing a desirable effect. I'm able to make concentrations of 100 mg/mL, and I can easily tolerate belly fat SC injections of up to 0.5 mL, which is the highest I've tried with ketamine. That's interesting about larger volumes having a slower absorption via SC. I'll have to keep that in mind. Having not tried IM, I guess I wasn't able to tell the difference.

 

[Mindlusion]

Wow! I did not expect to find someone else with similar (or likely even more) experience than myself with injecting. This is excellent info, thanks. To be honest, I've never even tried IM or IV. I started with SC, and once I realized how well it works, I never saw a need to venture into the other areas of the injecting ROA. Though maybe they're worth a try, if for no other reason than to know what I'm talking about when discussing them.

Regarding ketamine, at least for me, SC has worked pretty well in terms of producing a desirable effect. I'm able to make concentrations of 100 mg/mL, and I can easily tolerate belly fat SC injections of up to 0.5 mL, which is the highest I've tried with ketamine. That's interesting about larger volumes having a slower absorption via SC. I'll have to keep that in mind. Having not tried IM, I guess I wasn't able to tell the difference.

I wouldn’t recommend IV, there’s really no good reason for it if you can achieve the same or better effects through vaporization. In fact, I just made a post about this very topic in this thread: .SLAMED A LOT OF DMT Funny, I originally clicked on your thread to read about THH, and now I am discussing ROA again.
Also, the risk is significantly higher, first of all an incident like his ending up in the hospital (and jail, god forbid) is more than likely, and second even if you do things correctly, its still doesn't take very much to cause permanent damage or scarring to your veins, particularly with substances that cause irritation, trust me you don't want to have track marks.

Personally, I’m a big fan of the SC/IM (subcutaneous/intramuscular) routes for specific psychedelics, precisely because they offer a middle ground between the slower absorption of oral, nasal, or sublingual routes and the extremely rapid onset of vaporization or IV. The onset speed is directly proportional to duration of the peak in the experience...

In my experience, the ideal onset speed for a psychedelic experience is somewhere between these extremes. While in theory you could achieve this with an IV drip (like in a medical setting), that’s obviously not practical. Vaporization allows for titration of dose over time, which is more manageable, and certainly achievable, but still difficult in practice, for various reasons. Still this is the most widely used method to control onset and for good reason.. The onset of taking multiple small doses is also not the same as a smooth onset of a single dose. In my use case, I most often take psychedelics oral, just because it works perfectly well for things like psilocybin and mescaline... don't need any changing.
With but with other tryptamines like dmt , 5meo-dmt, and the relatives, these benefit greatly from IM/SC, particularly in the high intensity range of the experience, for obvious reasons you don't want that to last too long but longer than what you have with vaporized or IV, But I will still vape these as well often ontop of the other dose. Harmine also I think is essential for dmt, and i also take it with psilocybin... i almost never get the same depth of experience without harmine

As for the solvent you mentioned 69ron was using DMSO. On its own, DMSO doesn’t significantly improve sublingual absorption. But the idea is solid, if you can increase tissue permeability, you can speed up absorption and approach the onset profile of IM/SC administration. This would be particularly useful for potent compounds like 5-MeO-DMT or Salvinorin A, though it’ll always have its limitations.

Using a combination of modified cyclodextrins and solvents like DMSO could, in principle, improve sublingual or buccal delivery to something approaching IM/SC onset times, thats what id like to see working.

 

[Here&Now]

I wouldn’t recommend IV, there’s really no good reason for it if you can achieve the same or better effects through vaporization. In fact, I just made a post about this very topic in this thread: .SLAMED A LOT OF DMT Funny, I originally clicked on your thread to read about THH, and now I am discussing ROA again.
Also, the risk is significantly higher, first of all an incident like his ending up in the hospital (and jail, god forbid) is more than likely, and second even if you do things correctly, its still doesn't take very much to cause permanent damage or scarring to your veins, particularly with substances that cause irritation, trust me you don't want to have track marks.

Yeah, I was already leaning against wanting to try IV, and I think you just reinforced it. One of the things that attracted me to SC is the way it leaves minimal lasting damage, and IV could potentially be considered the opposite in that regard.

Personally, I’m a big fan of the SC/IM (subcutaneous/intramuscular) routes for specific psychedelics, precisely because they offer a middle ground between the slower absorption of oral, nasal, or sublingual routes and the extremely rapid onset of vaporization or IV. The onset speed is directly proportional to duration of the peak in the experience...

In my experience, the ideal onset speed for a psychedelic experience is somewhere between these extremes. While in theory you could achieve this with an IV drip (like in a medical setting), that’s obviously not practical. Vaporization allows for titration of dose over time, which is more manageable, and certainly achievable, but still difficult in practice, for various reasons. Still this is the most widely used method to control onset and for good reason.. The onset of taking multiple small doses is also not the same as a smooth onset of a single dose. In my use case, I most often take psychedelics oral, just because it works perfectly well for things like psilocybin and mescaline... don't need any changing.
With but with other tryptamines like dmt , 5meo-dmt, and the relatives, these benefit greatly from IM/SC, particularly in the high intensity range of the experience, for obvious reasons you don't want that to last too long but longer than what you have with vaporized or IV, But I will still vape these as well often ontop of the other dose. Harmine also I think is essential for dmt, and i also take it with psilocybin... i almost never get the same depth of experience without harmine

I feel the same way, and for exactly the same reasons. The intensity it offers is a nice middle ground between too much and too little. I also appreciate how volumetric dosing is inherent to the process, so you can be confident and precise when dosing psychedelics that are powerful at sub-10mg amounts.

Part of me wants to evangelize and let people know how convenient the injection ROA is, but I also understand it's just not for everyone, for a bunch of reasons.

As for the solvent you mentioned 69ron was using DMSO. On its own, DMSO doesn’t significantly improve sublingual absorption. But the idea is solid, if you can increase tissue permeability, you can speed up absorption and approach the onset profile of IM/SC administration. This would be particularly useful for potent compounds like 5-MeO-DMT or Salvinorin A, though it’ll always have its limitations.

Using a combination of modified cyclodextrins and solvents like DMSO could, in principle, improve sublingual or buccal delivery to something approaching IM/SC onset times, thats what id like to see working.

Very interesting, thanks for the explanation. Seems like a neat hack of biology.

 

[Icon]

I haven't tried just THH on its own but in a 1:1 ratio with harmine, for pharmahuasca. Compared to a few limited trials with rue and caapi extracts, I prefer THH, more the merrier it seems. I read it acts as an SSRI - which I assume could double-boost the DMT. If MAOI gets it to the synapse, might an SSRI work to hold it there longer? I thought that was the idea behind serotonin syndrome, just with DMT. Idk but it's the bee's knees. Looking forward to your trials with pure THH.

 

[Here&Now]

I haven't tried just THH on its own but in a 1:1 ratio with harmine, for pharmahuasca. Compared to a few limited trials with rue and caapi extracts, I prefer THH, more the merrier it seems. I read it acts as an SSRI - which I assume could double-boost the DMT. If MAOI gets it to the synapse, might an SSRI work to hold it there longer? I thought that was the idea behind serotonin syndrome, just with DMT. Idk but it's the bee's knees. Looking forward to your trials with pure THH.

Right, that's the same way I currently have experience with it: taken orally with harmine and DMT. For me, the enhancements from the additional of THH always seemed a bit subtle, but that combo also provided the most enjoyable trips of my life, so perhaps THH was uplifting the experience more than I realized. There did seem to be a noticeable boost in the likelihood of joy and euphoria, which would sometimes reach such extremes that I'd become absorbed in the bliss of it all. It's hard not to see that as a worthwhile contribution.

 

[yatyas314]

Right, that's the same way I currently have experience with it: taken orally with harmine and DMT. For me, the enhancements from the additional of THH always seemed a bit subtle, but that combo also provided the most enjoyable trips of my life, so perhaps THH was uplifting the experience more than I realized. There did seem to be a noticeable boost in the likelihood of joy and euphoria, which would sometimes reach such extremes that I'd become absorbed in the bliss of it all. It's hard not to see that as a worthwhile contribution.

In your thread you mentioned you had some experiences with pharmahuasca - Harmaline/THH/DMT ?
Do you have any experience with vaporhuasca Harmaline and THH sublingual @ 50-60mg Harmaline and 30mg THH add dmt 45-minutes later and titrate up as much as you want or can handle?
2nd question when you do decide to partake where do you want to get? I men what level are you shooting for? trippy or transcendance ?
Thank you for the reply
Y

 

[Here&Now]

In your thread you mentioned you had some experiences with pharmahuasca - Harmaline/THH/DMT ?
Do you have any experience with vaporhuasca Harmaline and THH sublingual @ 50-60mg Harmaline and 30mg THH add dmt 45-minutes later and titrate up as much as you want or can handle?
2nd question when you do decide to partake where do you want to get? I men what level are you shooting for? trippy or transcendance ?
Thank you for the reply
Y

I do have experience with vaporhuasca. But to clarify, my harmala mix usually consists of harmine and THH. I haven't really enjoyed harmaline whenever I've tried it.

I've used harmalas sublingually before vaping DMT, and the experience was great, but I actually prefer to ingest the harmalas orally before vaping DMT. I don't know why, but the harmala effect is lot deeper and longer-lasting when using the oral ROA. A good oral dose would be 50-100mg of harmine and 25-100mg of THH. For sublingual, you can get away with quite a bit less. Perhaps as low as 20mg harmine and 10mg THH.

I suppose some level of transcendence is always my goal, but that word can have scary connotations when it comes to DMT. In life, I haven't encountered anything that approaches the strangeness of a DMT breakthrough. Not even close. After a certain amount of depth is reached in the trip, it's hard to find a practical benefit in the experience. I usually like to wade in shallower waters where the representation of reality shares at least some resemblance to what I know.

 

[yatyas314]

I do have experience with vaporhuasca. But to clarify, my harmala mix usually consists of harmine and THH. I haven't really enjoyed harmaline whenever I've tried it.

I've used harmalas sublingually before vaping DMT, and the experience was great, but I actually prefer to ingest the harmalas orally before vaping DMT. I don't know why, but the harmala effect is lot deeper and longer-lasting when using the oral ROA. A good oral dose would be 50-100mg of harmine and 25-100mg of THH. For sublingual, you can get away with quite a bit less. Perhaps as low as 20mg harmine and 10mg THH.

I suppose some level of transcendence is always my goal, but that word can have scary connotations when it comes to DMT. In life, I haven't encountered anything that approaches the strangeness of a DMT breakthrough. Not even close. After a certain amount of depth is reached in the trip, it's hard to find a practical benefit in the experience. I usually like to wade in shallower waters where the representation of reality shares at least some resemblance to what I know.

I am with you about wading in the shallow end, however as I get more comfortable with the longer 2.5-3 hour experiences I do find myself pushing a little deeper everytime. This thread actually inspired me to get some THH and give it a try along with the harmline hcl. I try and get 2 weeks between sessions I will report back and share any differences I notice with THH. I have always been of the belief and I could be wrong that oral ingestion woud require more and leave the possibility of upset stomach. any thought??
Y

 

[Here&Now]

I am with you about wading in the shallow end, however as I get more comfortable with the longer 2.5-3 hour experiences I do find myself pushing a little deeper everytime. This thread actually inspired me to get some THH and give it a try along with the harmline hcl. I try and get 2 weeks between sessions I will report back and share any differences I notice with THH. I have always been of the belief and I could be wrong that oral ingestion woud require more and leave the possibility of upset stomach. any thought??
Y

Nice, looking forward to hearing about your experiences.

It's unquestionably true that you need more harmalas for the oral ROA compared to sublingual. So if one of your goals is to be conservative with the amount of raw material you use, sublingual would win that category. The causing of an upset stomach is a little less certain. I think it probably depends on the individual's own digestive system, because I've heard of it causing issues in others, but I've personally never had any problems with it.

 

[blig-blug]

The causing of an upset stomach is a little less certain. I think it probably depends on the individual's own digestive system, because I've heard of it causing issues in others, but I've personally never had any problems with it.

IME what I have eaten recently, if anything, seems to be the main factor. I have guaranteed stomach trouble at +200mg if I have eaten something heavy. If not, I have no problem (without adding a form of oral DMT).

 

[Here&Now]

IME what I have eaten recently, if anything, seems to be the main factor. I have guaranteed stomach trouble at +200mg if I have eaten something heavy. If not, I have no problem (without adding a form of oral DMT).

That's a good addition, and my own experience lines up with it as well. When you dose oral harmalas too high, there can definitely be some strong nausea as a result, among other negative effects. I once had a nightmarish experience after swallowing 300mg of harmine. Thank god I didn't take DMT as well that time.

And I'm sure the contents of your stomach also plays a role. I always wait at least 2 hours after my last meal to consume harmalas.

 

[yatyas314]

between the two threads, I have a couple questions. to take dmt freebase sublingually do I need to convert it to a salt? or can I just put it right under the tongue?
If I loaded 50 Harmaline HCL and 30 THH sublingual waited the 15 minutes swallowed whats left and then added the freebase and held for another 20 minutes. It feels like I could "base load" my system and add more via vaping to get to desired effect.

 

[Here&Now]

between the two threads, I have a couple questions. to take dmt freebase sublingually do I need to convert it to a salt? or can I just put it right under the tongue?
If I loaded 50 Harmaline HCL and 30 THH sublingual waited the 15 minutes swallowed whats left and then added the freebase and held for another 20 minutes. It feels like I could "base load" my system and add more via vaping to get to desired effect.

I've never tried sublingual DMT, so I'm not sure if the form makes a difference in terms of absorption. A quick search on the internet seems to indicate that you need a salt form.

The rest of your plan should work in theory, though 50mg of sublingual harmaline may have an excessively strong effect.