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Trichocereus Bridgesii Monstrose

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Kash

Kash

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Any interesting information you have on Trichocereus bridgesii monstrose post it here. Anything involving growth rate, growth conditions, alkaloid % content, grafting, or other interesting facts, post it!


I will start off. It has been rumored on different sites that this slow growing cactus is supposed to be high in mescaline content, though no conclusive results have really been posted. One scientific study posted a monstrose mescaline concentration of 0.48%, but also posted a 0.18% mesc content in regular bridgesii, which obviously is not a reliable representation of most bridgesii. They also stated they only selected one individual to represent each taxon/cultivar... not good scientific practice. Still though, it atleast showed that it is possible the rumors are true that tbm is indeed stronger than regular bridgesii. I would like to eventually do extensive testing on tbm for mescaline content when the time is right. Until then, it is but a curiosity.


 
None to add; However, I appreciate the organization and presenting of studies about this amazing plant.:love:
 
358 O. Ogunbodede et al. / Journal of Ethnopharmacology 131 (2010) 356–362
Table 1
Reported concentrations (in %) of mescaline in Echinopsis cacti with affinities to E. pachanoi and E. peruviana. CP: chlorophyllaceous parenchyma only. WP: whole plant.
Species % Form/part Locale or source Reference
E. lageniformis >0.25 Dry/WP Horticulture, European Agurell (1969b)
0.56 Dry/CP La Paz, Bolivia Serrano (2008)
E. cuzcoensis 0.0 Dry/CP Cotaruse, Arequipa, Peru Serrano (2008)
0.0 Dry/CP Huaytampo, Cuzco, Peru Serrano (2008)
0.0 Dry/CP Huacarpay, Cuzco, Peru Serrano (2008)
0.0 Dry/CP Capacmarca, Cuzco, Peru Serrano (2008)
0.005–0.05 Fresh/WP Horticulture, Germany Agurell et al. (1971)
E. pachanoi 5 Dry/CP Cultivated, Lima, Peru Cruz Sánchez (1948)
4.5 Dry/CP Cultivated: Lima, Peru Gonzalez Huerta (1960)
2.06 Dry/WP Horticulture, Italy Gennaro et al. (1996)
0.109–2.375 Dry/WP Horticulture, Switzerland Helmlin and Brenneisen (1992)
1.2 Dry/WP Huancabamba, Peru Poisson (1960)
0.9 Dry/WP Peruvian drug material Turner and Heyman (1960)
0.331 Dry/WP Horticulture, California Crosby and McLaughlin (1973)
>0.025 Fresh/WP Horticulture, European Agurell (1969b)
0.04–0.067 Fresh/WP Horticulture, European Agurell (1969a)
0.067–0.079 Fresh/WP Horticulture, European Bruhn and Lundström (1976)
0.15–0.155 Dry/WP Horticulture, California Pummangura et al. (1982)
0.78 Dry/CP Chiclayo, Peru Reyna Pinedo and Flores Garcés (2001)
1.4 Dry/CP Barranca, Peru Reyna Pinedo and Flores Garcés (2001)
0.00 Dry/CP El Alisal, San Marcos, Cajamarca, Peru Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.00 Dry/CP Cataratas, Otuzco, La Libertad, Peru Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.23 Dry/CP Moyán, San Vincente, Lambayeque, Peru Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.28 Dry/CP Puykate, Ferrenafe, Lambayeque, Peru ˜ Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.38 Dry/CP Yanasara, Sánchez Carrión, La Libertad, Peru Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.45 Dry/CP KunturWasi, San Pablo, Cajamarca, Peru Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.94 Dry/CP Tocmoche, Chota, Cajamarca, Peru Cjuno et al. (2009)
1.14 Dry/CP Laquipampa, Ferrenafe, Lambayeque, Peru ˜ Cjuno et al. (2009)
E. peruviana 0.25 Dry/CP Chavin de Huantar, Huari, Ancash, Peru Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.0 Dry/WP Horticulture, European Agurell (1969b)
0.0 Dry/WP Wild harvested in Peru Djerassi et al. (1955)
0.817 Dry/WP KK242 seed from Matucana, Peru grown in California Pardanani et al. (1977)
E. puquiensis 0.28 Dry/CP Chavina, Lucanas, Ayacucho, Peru ˜ Serrano (2008) and Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.13 Dry/CP Chumpi, Parincochas, Ayacucho, Peru Serrano (2008) and Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.11 Dry/CP Incuyo, Parincochas, Ayacucho, Peru Serrano (2008) and Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.50 Dry/CP Vado, Lucanas, Ayacucho, Peru Serrano (2008) and Cjuno et al. (2009)
E. santaensis 0.31 Dry/CP Mancos, Yungay, Ancash, Peru Cjuno et al. (2009)
E. schoenii 0.22 Dry/CP Cotahuasi, La Unión, Arequipa, Peru Serrano (2008) and Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.20 Dry/CP Pampacola, Castilla, Arequipa, Peru Serrano (2008) and Cjuno et al. (2009)
0.14 Dry/CP Huambo, Arequipa, Peru Serrano (2008) and Cjuno et al. (2009)
Table 2
Identity, mescaline content, collection number (if any) or geographic origin, and material originally collected (seed or cutting) of Echinopsis (Cactaceae) species/cultivars
examined, in order of decreasing mescaline content.
Cactus species/cultivar Mescaline conc. (% of dry weight of cactus tissue) Collection number or origin, material originally
collected
E. pachanoi 4.7 Matucana, Lima Region, Peru Cuttinga
E. pachanoi cv. Juul’s Giant 1.4 Cultivar Cutting
E. pachanoi(long spined) 1.2 Huancabamba, Piura Region, Peru Seed (Van Geest)
E. scopulicola 0.85 FR 991: Tapecua, O’Connor Prov., Bolivia Seed
(Hildegard Winter)
E. pachanoi 0.82 Hutchison et al. 6212: Rio Maranon above Chagual, ˜
La Libertad Dept., Peru Cutting
E. pachanoi(short spined) 0.54 Huancabamba, Piura Region, Peru Seed (Van Geest)
E. lageniformis (monstrose) 0.48 Cultivar Cutting
E. pachanoi complex cf. T. pallarensis Ritter 0.47 FR 676: Pallar, Ancash Dept., Peru Seed (Hildegard
Winter)
E. pachanoi complex cf. T. riomizquensis Ritter 0.40 FR 856: Chuyllas, on the Rio Mizque, Prov.
Campero, Bolivia Seed (Hildegard Winter)
E. santaensis 0.32 OST 92701: Santa Valley, Ancash Dept., Peru Seed
(Ostolaza)
E. peruviana 0.24 KK 242: Matucana, Lima Region, Peru Cutting from
Karel Knize
E. lageniformis 0.18 Cultivar Cutting (Gillette)
E. puquiensis 0.13 P.C. Hutchison 1256A: Nazca-Puquio Rd., across
canyon from Pachan, Ayacucho Dept., Peru Cutting
E. uyupampensis 0.053 Backeberg (Monaco #3487) Cutting
a
Collector was an indigenous supplier of E. pachanoito traditional Peruvian shamans’ markets, who requested anonymity.




-------------------------

Am I reading this correctly?

It makes it look like San Pedro ( E. Pach.) is the highest mesc content...
 
Yes. One strain of pachanoi was tested from a cultivator in lima peru that apparently produced 5% yield. Pretty incredible, though like I said, they only tested 1 cacti sample from each taxon/cultivar. A better study would take multiple samples of specimens from each to get an average. It is likely an outlier, but still pretty interesting that mesc content in pachanoi could reach that percentage.. On the other hand, SWIM has tested bridgesii multiple times to be much higher than the reported 0.18%, more closely to 1% (highest was 1.8%), so it makes me wonder if bridgesii monstrose would be even higher %.
 
Kash said:
Yes. One strain of pachanoi was tested from a cultivator in lima peru that apparently produced 5% yield.
Click to expand...
But only for the outer layer, not whole plant.

maybe an extraction test was off the scale and had to be diluted to an acceptable range?
I've heard a rumor like that....

SAB has some data on TMB where a test found something like 2% if I recall correctly.
It is not bad, but data suggests that it and other bridgesii forms are still not as desirable as a good pachanoi clone.
 
Kash said:
One scientific study posted a monstrose mescaline concentration of 0.48%, but also posted a 0.18% mesc content in regular bridgesii, which obviously is not reliable.
Click to expand...
Well... it is reliable enough unless you have objections to the researcher's methodology for quantification. The numbers just show that tmb and tb can have as high (or as low) mescaline content as 0.48% and 0.18% respectively which, given the sample size, is not representative. I have extracted homegrown tbm and got a 0% mescaline yield, so go figure. The cactus was growing on a windowsill in scotland and it is more of a conversation piece than an ethnobotanical treasure.

I also find that commonly encountered theories that correlate slow growth or "mutation" to higher mescaline content do not make much logical sense. Growth speed and mescaline content can very easily be two totally uncoupled, or worse, reverse correlated processes. In fallacy, it is akin to saying that penis envy cubensis has more actives because it is a mutant.
 
My bioassay concludes, that this variety is indeed stronger than the regular bridge, but it does not seem to live up to it's hype. I am not sure, if added potency makes up for the supposed slower growth. It seems as if there is no way around it: Cacti need time to produce mescaline and other alkaloids. There are also so many environmental and genetic factors at play....

I hope that one day, we will have a inexpensive source of mescaline. We need to think of something, because demand is increasing as we speak, and it is not unusual to see vendors displaying the dreaded "out of stock" sign these days.

There have been some attempts to grow cactus cell tissue in vitro, but afaik, they have been unsucessfull.
 
obliguhl said:
There have been some attempts to grow cactus cell tissue in vitro, but afaik, they have been unsucessfull.
Click to expand...
I don't know about clandestine attempts but callus growth of cacti has been done well and documented by private companies and academic institutions.
I hope that one day, we will have a inexpensive source of mescaline.
Click to expand...
Hybrid plants of known potent forms are also potent and grow up to a meter or so a year.
 
Ah, here is the Thread: Culturing cacti tissue in-vitro - Cultivation - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus seems indeed possible, but also quite hard to do.

Hybrid plants of known potent forms are also potent and grow up to a meter or so a year.
Click to expand...

Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean grafting cuttings on say pereskiopsis? I wonder if the resulting cacti would be as potent. I also kinda failed getting some growth out of my peres. I guess i just do not have the green thumb :p
 
Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean grafting cuttings on say pereskiopsis? I wonder if the resulting cacti would be as potent. I also kinda failed getting some growth out of my peres. I guess i just do not have the green thumb
Click to expand...
No, no grafting. I would never graft a pedro or ally, the time saved by doing so is trivial to me. Lots of good clones grow very fast when established and fed well. I've seen plants that were a meter tall in three seasons from seed.

I would avoid using a cactus mix, I would avoid using an alkaline mix too. Pedro and allies do well in well draining neutral to slightly acid soils (Ca is good for them but not an excess) that have HIGH fertility. N is the main limiting factor for growth once you have full sun, lots of root space and lots of water. Don't treat them like cacti, grow them like you would a N loving leafy plant or you won't get the most out of your plants.

I've often fed very heavy with ammonium sulfate without any problems. Well fed and well watered plants grow the best and are the most potent in my experience. Forget most of what you have read or heard about these plants from many of the so called experts, many of them just repeat what they heard and what worked for them without having done any experimentation and comparison.

Why wouldn't a fast growing plant or graft be potent if it was a potent clone...?
I think that it is a myth that a plant can't have potent new growth or weak old growth. I have seen reactionary alkaloid responses often as well. I could write a lot about this and have in the past but don't really care to do so right now. I grew these plants for over a decade and had thousands of them and experimented a great deal. I even tried to do tissue culture of San Pedro more than a decade ago, but only tried once and failed and since it was in an academic institution and I still got school credit I did not attempt again.

I can say that there is a lot of inaccurate information out there that ignores a lot of good research and facts about these plants. You want good potent fast cacti, then grow from seed, which is super easy, just put seeds on/in dirt and water, forget keeping things sterile, that makes it so much harder. Forget guides, none of them I have seen are any good. Forget over-hyped closet cactus keepers/collectors with cult followings too, they aren't any good as growers and you should not be relying upon their word, experiment and you will see.


If I wanted to grow cacti tissue culture, I would likely use a sand/solid medium (not agar) and in-vitro germination (not explant tissues) and then induce callus formation later on after establishment.
 
Infundibulum said:
Kash said:
I have extracted homegrown tbm and got a 0% mescaline yield, so go figure. The cactus was growing on a windowsill in scotland and it is more of a conversation piece than an ethnobotanical treasure.
Click to expand...

others have has similar results extracting from very potent bridgessi plants-ones that were very strong when made as tea.
leading some to believe there are other chemicals present that Greatly enhance the trip
Click to expand...
 
dg said:
Infundibulum said:
Kash said:
I have extracted homegrown tbm and got a 0% mescaline yield, so go figure. The cactus was growing on a windowsill in scotland and it is more of a conversation piece than an ethnobotanical treasure.
Click to expand...

others have has similar results extracting from very potent bridgessi plants-ones that were very strong when made as tea.
leading some to believe there are other chemicals present that Greatly enhance the trip
Click to expand...
I forget where, but I have read of bridgesii containing MAOIs, which likely accounts for making stronger experiences with teas and resins.
Click to expand...
 
I wonder if it is an alkaloid the freebase form and salts of which are still highly soluble in caustic solution and or NP solvent.

That MAOI theory is interesting.
I wish I knew where and when it first appeared.

I know that bridgesii has Kaempferol - WikipediaKaempferol which can have MAOI properties, but that doesn't mean that it is implicated in this. A lot of MAOI property having molecules don't increase subjective psychedelic effects or orally activate DMT for that matter. I would like to see someone take Kaempferol with 50mg mescaline and report increased effects before I would assume that this is the reason.
 
Isn't hordenine a powerful maoi for phens? it commonly known to activate PEA anyways. hordenine is also common in many cacti....

you could easily measure the ph of live cactus juice to determine if the alks are fb or not.
 
Not sure about hordenine, but erowid reports:
"T. bridgesii -

Fast growing, slender, columnar.

Contains: mescaline, tyramine, 3-methoxytyramine, 3-4-dimethoxyphenethylamine."

3-4-dimethoxyphenethylamine has been shown to have MAOI properties.
 
Hello everyone, I'm rather new to cactus and especially growing my own. In fact, I received a bridgesii monstrose for my birthday recently, making it my first and so far only plant I currently grow. The nursery in Austin I purchased it from said to return in a few months for caapi and chacruna plants, but until then my very odd cactus sits proud and alone at my dwelling


Can someone point me in the direction of a good tutorial with regards to how to propogate this little guy, methods of preparation and the like? Its a little over a foot and has two pups growing on either side of it. The searching I've done thus far hasn't been very productive, though that may be due in part to this phone being my only means to search online.


I also have a bit of dilemma : a small creature of some sort had quite the appetite and took a bite out of one of the pups, leaving an open wound. Should I cut the area around it, or let it be?


Thank
 
a huachuma maestro in chavin de huantar described the mutant cacti as "totems" and they are not for consuming (to him) but rather to keep as a plant to sustain a connection to it and the land
 
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