trying slow evaporation method ...

[1Starway7]

this is a good example!.... that artificial intelegence ....AI .... will sometimes tell you every step!! of processing dmt or other drugs,,,,
and other times..... AI .....will refuse to tell you the steps because of laws and risks....
guess you have to catch ...AI...at the right time....



I have some very old waxy oxidized DMT... that I turned into a dmt citrate salt in distilled water...
and im going to try to get cleaner crystals from it by using the slow evaporation method....


AI Overview


Yes, you can use a fan to speed up the
evaporation of water from a DMT citrate solution, which will reduce the water content, cause increased saturation, and ultimately lead to the formation of DMT citrate crystals.
Here are the answers to your specific questions:

• Can I use a fan first... to reduce the water content.. causing increased saturation? Yes, a fan increases airflow over the liquid surface, which accelerates the evaporation of the water (solvent), leading to a supersaturated solution where the solute (DMT citrate) can no longer remain fully dissolved.
• Will DMT crystals from DMT citrate salt water occure? Yes, as the water evaporates and the solution becomes supersaturated, DMT citrate crystals will begin to form. This is a common method for crystallization, often referred to as slow evaporation.
• Can I pour off the impure water from the crystals? Yes, once the crystals have fully formed and settled, you can carefully pour off the remaining liquid (mother liquor), which contains the dissolved impurities. This process is effectively decanting, and it should be followed by a proper filtration step to collect all the crystals and, ideally, washing the crystals with a small amount of cold, pure solvent to remove any residual impure liquid adhering to their surfaces.

Important Considerations for Purity:

• Slow Process: While a fan speeds evaporation, the best quality crystals (larger and purer) are generally formed by allowing the solution to cool and evaporate slowly and undisturbed. Rapid evaporation or cooling can trap impurities within the crystal lattice, resulting in smaller, less pure crystals.
• Recrystallization: If the initial crystals are not pure (e.g., yellow or milky in color), you may need to perform a second recrystallization by dissolving them in hot, pure water and repeating the slow cooling/evaporation process.

• Crystallization - Wikipedia
  Crystals can be formed by various methods, such as: cooling, evaporation, addition of a second solvent to reduce the solubility of...
  
  Wikipedia
  
  
  
  
• evaping with fan Q - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers
  Jan 23, 2011 — we all know that evaporating takes time especially if the temperature is cold. so id use a fan on a low setting and a ...
  
  www.dmt-nexus.me
  
  
  
• Recrystallization - Performing the Technique
  Aug 26, 2015 — then you simply filter them to collect them. and then you will determine their purity. if your compound is pure then y...
  
  
  YouTube·Chem233UIUC
  
  11:45

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[Transform]

I'd be interested to hear what AI model you've been using - it seems to have done a pretty good job lately.

The nicest crystals come from the slowest evaporation, so you'll have to get the timing of removing the fan just right. Another thing may prove problematic is if the solubility of DMT citrate is too high - then the crystals might refuse to form, especially if they've a tendency towards being hygroscopic.

Getting the stoichiometry of DMT citrate right is complicated by citric acid's abiity to combine with up to three equivalents of DMT. This may well take a bit of dialling-in, since it could be only one of the ratios tiat crystallises nicely - the 3:1, the 2:1 or the 1:1 DMT:citrate. Points in between could be prone to stickiness, but equally there's a possibility that there might be 'sweet spots' at 5:2 or 3:2 stoichiometry. It would be best to check whether there's anything in the literature on this particular point.

 

[1Starway7]

I'd be interested to hear what AI model you've been using - it seems to have done a pretty good job lately.

The nicest crystals come from the slowest evaporation, so you'll have to get the timing of removing the fan just right. Another thing may prove problematic is if the solubility of DMT citrate is too high - then the crystals might refuse to form, especially if they've a tendency towards being hygroscopic.

Getting the stoichiometry of DMT citrate right is complicated by citric acid's abiity to combine with up to three equivalents of DMT. This may well take a bit of dialling-in, since it could be only one of the ratios tiat crystallises nicely - the 3:1, the 2:1 or the 1:1 DMT:citrate. Points in between could be prone to stickiness, but equally there's a possibility that there might be 'sweet spots' at 5:2 or 3:2 stoichiometry. It would be best to check whether there's anything in the literature on this particular point.

Not shure what you mean by ....AI model?

I simply just ask my computer questions while im on Google...
It simply answers allmost too much!
I asked it long questions like.....

...[..i have some dmt citrate in water..how can i get crystals directly from the citrate water? can i evaporate the water down with fan untill i get increased saturation?...then slow evaporate the remainder for solid crystals...

ONE......The darn thing will answer every question...... even if its a string of questions!!.... [you can see that evedence in above post]

TWO...... sometimes .... AI... refuses to answer.... and tells me DMT is illeagle than says something about the saftey risk part? i guess you have to ask the question politely or catch it in a good mood...

Ai automaticly comes on after my question...but if it doesnt... i have an ....AI... option on top of screen just click that and it comes on and answeres EVERYTHING I asked!...
.. its wonderfull!!

You can even be sick and explain your symptoms to it and it will answer and tell you how its treated... ..like doctor Google!

i looked and it appears it does come in diferent intelegence levels! not shure what my pc has?
read below..


AI Overview


Yes, AI comes in many different models
, which can be categorized by their functionality (like narrow, general, or super intelligence) or by their training approach (such as supervised, unsupervised, or reinforcement learning). Other common types include deep learning models, natural language processing (NLP) models, and specific architectures like transformers and convolutional neural networks (CNNs).

By functionality

• Artificial Narrow Intelligence (ANI): AI designed for a specific task, like recommending products or playing chess.
• Artificial General Intelligence (AGI): A theoretical type of AI with human-like cognitive abilities that can perform any intellectual task a human can.
• Artificial Super Intelligence (ASI): A theoretical AI that surpasses human intelligence.

By training approach

• Supervised Learning: Models are trained on labeled datasets to make predictions or classifications.
• Unsupervised Learning: Models find patterns and structures in unlabeled data on their own.
• Reinforcement Learning: Models learn by trial and error, receiving rewards or penalties for their actions.

By architecture and domain

• Deep Learning: Uses multi-layered neural networks to learn from large amounts of data.
• Natural Language Processing (NLP) Models: Specifically designed to understand, interpret, and generate human language.
• Transformers: A specific neural network architecture that has revolutionized NLP.
• Convolutional Neural Networks (CNNs): Excels at processing data with a grid-like topology, such as images and video.

 

[1Starway7]

Not shure what you mean by ....AI model?

I simply just ask my computer questions while im on Google...
It simply answers allmost too much!
I asked it long questions like.....

...[..i have some dmt citrate in water..how can i get crystals directly from the citrate water? can i evaporate the water down with fan untill i get increased saturation?...then slow evaporate the remainder for solid crystals...

ONE......The darn thing will answer every question...... even if its a string of questions!!.... [you can see that evedence in above post]

TWO...... sometimes .... AI... refuses to answer.... and tells me DMT is illeagle than says something about the saftey risk part? i guess you have to ask the question politely or catch it in a good mood...

Ai automaticly comes on after my question...but if it doesnt... i have an ....AI... option on top of screen just click that and it comes on and answeres EVERYTHING I asked!...
.. its wonderfull!!

You can even be sick and explain your symptoms to it and it will answer and tell you how its treated... ..like doctor Google!

i looked and it appears it does come in diferent intelegence levels! not shure what my pc has?
read below..


AI Overview


Yes, AI comes in many different models
, which can be categorized by their functionality (like narrow, general, or super intelligence) or by their training approach (such as supervised, unsupervised, or reinforcement learning). Other common types include deep learning models, natural language processing (NLP) models, and specific architectures like transformers and convolutional neural networks (CNNs).

By functionality

• Artificial Narrow Intelligence (ANI): AI designed for a specific task, like recommending products or playing chess.
• Artificial General Intelligence (AGI): A theoretical type of AI with human-like cognitive abilities that can perform any intellectual task a human can.
• Artificial Super Intelligence (ASI): A theoretical AI that surpasses human intelligence.

By training approach

• Supervised Learning: Models are trained on labeled datasets to make predictions or classifications.
• Unsupervised Learning: Models find patterns and structures in unlabeled data on their own.
• Reinforcement Learning: Models learn by trial and error, receiving rewards or penalties for their actions.

By architecture and domain

• Deep Learning: Uses multi-layered neural networks to learn from large amounts of data.
• Natural Language Processing (NLP) Models: Specifically designed to understand, interpret, and generate human language.
• Transformers: A specific neural network architecture that has revolutionized NLP.
• Convolutional Neural Networks (CNNs): Excels at processing data with a grid-like topology, such as images and video.

here is another example of AI mode....

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AI says....Ask any question!


My question....
how to slow evaporate dmt citrate salts in water to get good crystals..?

its answer below....

but sometimes AI...wont answer the question .... if it thinks its illeagle ....just keep trying



answer......To grow good quality
DMT citrate crystals by slow evaporation from water, follow these key steps:
Crystallization is a process used to purify solid compounds. When a compound is dissolved in a solvent and then the solvent is slowly evaporated, the dissolved compound can form crystals. The process of slow evaporation allows for the formation of larger and more well-defined crystals.
To achieve good crystals through slow evaporation, consider the following general principles:

1. Choose the right solvent: The solvent should dissolve the compound when hot but not when cold.
2. Create a saturated solution: Dissolve the maximum amount of compound in the hot solvent.
3. Control the evaporation rate: Allow the solvent to evaporate slowly, often by covering the container with a material that has small holes. This slow process encourages the formation of larger crystals.
4. Maintain a stable environment: Avoid vibrations and temperature fluctuations, as these can disrupt the crystal growth.
5. Patience is key: Crystal formation by slow evaporation can take time, from days to weeks.

9 sites

• Slow Evaporation Method
  The Slow Evaporation Method. This is the most successful method we have used for more than 100 compounds (more than 90% of the tim...
  
  UMass Amherst
  
  
  
• Growing Crystals That Will Make Your Crystallographer Happy
  Slow Evaporation. This is the simplest way to grow crystals and works best for compounds which are not sensitive to ambient condit...
  
  Texas A&M University
  
  
  
• How to Grow a Large, Single Crystal: Part 1 | University at ...
  Oct 15, 2018 — hi this is part one of a two-part. video series on how to grow a large single crystal. if you want to grow a large sin...
  
  
  YouTube·University at Buffalo
  
  
  
  
  
  10:13

Show all

 

[Transform]

Oops, this dropped off the bottom of my list while I was gardening or something…
Yeah, I meant Claude or ChatGPT or whatever. Have you set up a practical experiment for this, if that was your intention (as you maybe seem to imply)?

 

[Transform]

No...that was a.... 2019 post..only tryed once..

by the way ...[my slow evaporation atempt] .. did not give any crystals yet...when the DMT salt ...water.... compleatly evaporated ...it left a shiny plastic like oderless..... dry to touch ... semiclear .....
[almost rubbery layer on bottom of dish]...i guess its still dmt..though... the shiny dry to touch layer.... after the citric acid water evaporated ... looked almost like i could peal the whole thing cleanly off the glass dish... never tryed.... ill let it dry further. would the citric acid still be in this stuff ?...or does it evaporate with the water?
if citric acid ..is in this stuff that would make it oral use only...no vaping because of the citric acid ...that may still be in it?

Continuing back from the other thread - the citric acid and DMT react to form a salt. Whether this is still acidic or not depends on the exact amounts of the two components. Also, if you didn't measure an exact molar (molecular) ratio in whole numbers, this amorphous result becomes the most likely result. DMT citrate is known to precipitate as "honey oil" from ethyl acetate as well.

Did you record the exact amounts of DMT and citric acid you used? There are three ratios that, in principle, have the best chances of forming a crystalline product - 3:1, 2:1 and 1:1, with the last two becoming increasingly acidic. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 3:1 salt was a gooey mess, and some level of hygroscopic (moisture-absorbing) behaviour seems quite probable at all three ratios.

The citrate has rather too high a solubility in water for this method to be viably reliable for actual crystal formation, it seems. You'd need a worse solvent, maybe an aqueous alcohol, but then you'd be better off using a thermal gradient. Anything other than azeotropic water/alcohol mixtures will change composition on evaporation, leaving excess water as a residue, which would rather defy the point of using alcohol (i.e. ethanol or isopropanol) in the first place.

 

[1Starway7]

here is another example of AI mode....

AI Mode
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Sign in

---

AI says....Ask any question!


My question....
how to slow evaporate dmt citrate salts in water to get good crystals..?

its answer below....

but sometimes AI...wont answer the question .... if it thinks its illeagle ....just keep trying



answer......To grow good quality
DMT citrate crystals by slow evaporation from water, follow these key steps:
Crystallization is a process used to purify solid compounds. When a compound is dissolved in a solvent and then the solvent is slowly evaporated, the dissolved compound can form crystals. The process of slow evaporation allows for the formation of larger and more well-defined crystals.
To achieve good crystals through slow evaporation, consider the following general principles:

1. Choose the right solvent: The solvent should dissolve the compound when hot but not when cold.
2. Create a saturated solution: Dissolve the maximum amount of compound in the hot solvent.
3. Control the evaporation rate: Allow the solvent to evaporate slowly, often by covering the container with a material that has small holes. This slow process encourages the formation of larger crystals.
4. Maintain a stable environment: Avoid vibrations and temperature fluctuations, as these can disrupt the crystal growth.
5. Patience is key: Crystal formation by slow evaporation can take time, from days to weeks.

View attachment 105938
View attachment 105939

9 sites

• Slow Evaporation Method
  The Slow Evaporation Method. This is the most successful method we have used for more than 100 compounds (more than 90% of the tim...
  View attachment 105940
  UMass Amherst
  
  
  
• Growing Crystals That Will Make Your Crystallographer Happy
  Slow Evaporation. This is the simplest way to grow crystals and works best for compounds which are not sensitive to ambient condit...
  View attachment 105943
  Texas A&M University
  
  
  
• How to Grow a Large, Single Crystal: Part 1 | University at ...
  Oct 15, 2018 — hi this is part one of a two-part. video series on how to grow a large single crystal. if you want to grow a large sin...
  View attachment 105941
  View attachment 105942
  YouTube·University at Buffalo
  
  
  
  
  
  10:13

Show all

Continuing back from the other thread - the citric acid and DMT react to form a salt. Whether this is still acidic or not depends on the exact amounts of the two components. Also, if you didn't measure an exact molar (molecular) ratio in whole numbers, this amorphous result becomes the most likely result. DMT citrate is known to precipitate as "honey oil" from ethyl acetate as well.

Did you record the exact amounts of DMT and citric acid you used? There are three ratios that, in principle, have the best chances of forming a crystalline product - 3:1, 2:1 and 1:1, with the last two becoming increasingly acidic. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 3:1 salt was a gooey mess, and some level of hygroscopic (moisture-absorbing) behaviour seems quite probable at all three ratios.

The citrate has rather too high a solubility in water for this method to be viably reliable for actual crystal formation, it seems. You'd need a worse solvent, maybe an aqueous alcohol, but then you'd be better off using a thermal gradient. Anything other than azeotropic water/alcohol mixtures will change composition on evaporation, leaving excess water as a residue, which would rather defy the point of using alcohol (i.e. ethanol or isopropanol) in the first place.

First i was using an old dmt that wasnt 100 percent pure.. that was a little waxy...

Also note... that i desolved this dmt two times over the months in everclear alcohol and evaporated it...

The amount of dmt was pretty dense.... [alot of crystals]...back when i extracted it but just did a ...napatha pour off ...after removing it from freezer before piutting infront of fan....

yes ....i think ive abused this old dmt... quite a lot..... but i still believe the molecule is still in the mix...

i added 1/2teaspoon 100percent citric acid crystals to the distilled water.....[when making the dmt citrate salts].....just guessing the amount of citric acid...... [.may have been a little much citric acid crystals?/.

The amount of dmt was pretty dense [alot of crystals]...back when i extracted it but just did a ...napatha pour off to remove some impuritys]......after removing it from freezer before piutting infront of fan....
yes ....i think ive abused this old dmt... quite a lot..... but i still believe the molecule is still in the mix...

Now....as... for the photos i sent of the glaze in bottom of glass dish... as it drys.... it feels like its hardening more every day... .its non sticky surface. is .like a hardening plastic.

Acording to the generous free info im getting from AI....after evaorating the water out of the liquid dmt salts...i now have a dry dmt citrate!!

After some thought i think its hardening more ever day because the citric acid//and dmt molecules are naturally trying to crystalize in the mix..

after a few more days i expect cracks to appear in the glaze ..alowing me to crush the glaze into a more easy to handle DMT citrate powder!!

This powder can be used oraly and put in capsules... IF!!....it keeps drying over the next few days and hardens more....

If this happens...this will be ....another way... and posibly ...a little safer way.... than using HPBCD!].... to turn DMT freebase into a dry powder..easier to handle...

I have ...newer ...cleaner ....[white dmt] crystals ... i could try this........with my.... 100 percent citric acid crystals,,..but im waiting to see how hard this dmt citrate glaze in bottom of dish gets over time.. hope this makes sense...

 

[1Starway7]

this is the citric acid crystals im using...picture below..

 

[Transform]

this is the citric acid crystals im using...picture below..

When using citric acid quantitatively, it's useful to remember that most food-grade citric is sold as the monohydrate, so a little more is needed than with the anhydrous form.

 

[1Starway7]

When using citric acid quantitatively, it's useful to remember that most food-grade citric is sold as the monohydrate, so a little more is needed than with the anhydrous form.

my question to AL....
my question.... could DMT citrate posibly be somewhat sublingual?

AI answers below...

Yes,
citric acid is a common pharmaceutical excipient used in sublingual formulations to enhance drug absorption and mask unpleasant tastes. It doesn't "make" a drug sublingual on its own, but rather modifies the formulation to improve the delivery of drugs designed for this route.
Here is how citric acid helps with sublingual administration:

• pH Modification: Citric acid can temporarily lower the microenvironmental pH in the oral cavity. This initial drop in pH can help certain drugs with pH-dependent solubility dissolve more quickly in the limited saliva available.
• Enhanced Permeation: Citric acid, when used in effervescent systems with a bicarbonate base, facilitates a dynamic pH shift. The initial acidic pH helps dissolution, and the subsequent reaction releases carbon dioxide, which can temporarily increase the pH and favor the formation of the non-ionized, more lipid-soluble form of a drug (if it's a weak base), which can pass through the lipid-rich sublingual membrane more easily.
• Permeation Enhancer: Citrate can chelate calcium ions (Ca²⁺) in the oral mucosa. This action can make the tight junctions between mucosal cells more permeable, thus promoting drug transport through the paracellular pathway (between cells).
• Increased Salivation: Citric acid is a known sialogogue (saliva stimulant), which increases saliva production. This aids in the disintegration and dissolution of the sublingual tablet or formulation.
• Taste-Masking: Citric acid's strong sour taste can effectively mask the bitter or unpleasant taste of many active pharmaceutical ingredients, improving patient compliance, which is a key consideration for orally disintegrating or sublingual tablets.

In summary, citric acid is a valuable additive in sublingual drug development, used by pharmaceutical scientists to create effective and palatable formulations that bypass the digestive system and liver's "first-pass" metabolism, allowing for faster onset of action and increased bioavailability.

This is for informational purposes only. For medical advice or diagnosis, consult a professional. AI responses may include mistakes. Learn more

 

[1Starway7]

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my question to AL....
my question.... could DMT citrate posibly be somewhat sublingual?

AI answers below...








Yes,
citric acid is a common pharmaceutical excipient used in sublingual formulations to enhance drug absorption and mask unpleasant tastes. It doesn't "make" a drug sublingual on its own, but rather modifies the formulation to improve the delivery of drugs designed for this route.
Here is how citric acid helps with sublingual administration:

• pH Modification: Citric acid can temporarily lower the microenvironmental pH in the oral cavity. This initial drop in pH can help certain drugs with pH-dependent solubility dissolve more quickly in the limited saliva available.
• Enhanced Permeation: Citric acid, when used in effervescent systems with a bicarbonate base, facilitates a dynamic pH shift. The initial acidic pH helps dissolution, and the subsequent reaction releases carbon dioxide, which can temporarily increase the pH and favor the formation of the non-ionized, more lipid-soluble form of a drug (if it's a weak base), which can pass through the lipid-rich sublingual membrane more easily.
• Permeation Enhancer: Citrate can chelate calcium ions (Ca²⁺) in the oral mucosa. This action can make the tight junctions between mucosal cells more permeable, thus promoting drug transport through the paracellular pathway (between cells).
• Increased Salivation: Citric acid is a known sialogogue (saliva stimulant), which increases saliva production. This aids in the disintegration and dissolution of the sublingual tablet or formulation.
• Taste-Masking: Citric acid's strong sour taste can effectively mask the bitter or unpleasant taste of many active pharmaceutical ingredients, improving patient compliance, which is a key consideration for orally disintegrating or sublingual tablets.

In summary, citric acid is a valuable additive in sublingual drug development, used by pharmaceutical scientists to create effective and palatable formulations that bypass the digestive system and liver's "first-pass" metabolism, allowing for faster onset of action and increased bioavailability.

This is for informational purposes only. For medical advice or diagnosis, consult a professional. AI responses may include mistakes. Learn more

after evaporating almost all the water from the dmt citrate ...so far... in 24 hours its looks like its trying to become a hardening glue??
Im trying to get the stuff to dry faster by scoring it with the tip of a knife alowning more air to reach it... by putting it under computer fan....
the middle thicker area in 24 hours has gotten thicker than honey...more like a honey colored glue!
I hope it drys hard so it can be crushed into a powder...if it doesnt get that hard it still can be put into a capsule with some effort....
there is a fair amount of citric acid in it.... because it taste the same as citric acid crystals do when a little put on toung..
I think i can also taste the dmt blend in it also..
my guess is that i was a bit heavy on the citric acid?

 

[Transform]

Although you might be able to produce a powder after forced drying, don't be surprised if it turns back into a gooey mass on storage. Keeping it in two nested airtight containers along with some dessicant packets would help to alleviate this.

While you may be finding the AI output helpful, you'd be doing us all a favour by editing out the long spaces and general flab, which I've already tidied up a couple of times myself, e.g.:

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You'll surely also gain more understanding by going over the output yourself while tidying it up. Thank you in advance.

 

[1Starway7]

Although you might be able to produce a powder after forced drying, don't be surprised if it turns back into a gooey mass on storage. Keeping it in two nested airtight containers along with some dessicant packets would help to alleviate this.

While you may be finding the AI output helpful, you'd be doing us all a favour by editing out the long spaces and general flab, which I've already tidied up a couple of times myself, e.g.:

You'll surely also gain more understanding by going over the output yourself while tidying it up. Thank you in advance.

Thats posible ...it could have gooed out......but its past that stage now.... its soo dry!..... i dont notice much stickyness at all......i can mould it between my fingers...
right now its so dry it far exceeds honey ...its now like glue thats about 2/3rds dry...
I touched a little to my toung it stings a little at first...but goes to that sour taste citrate is known for.........[i probibly put too much citric acid in my first experament?
with water mostly gone....this is still suposed to be dmt citrate.... acording to info..

pictures on bottom .... [left image with flash/ right without flash].......notice how it lifts cleanly off the glass bottom of dish as it gets dryer and dryer....its now like taffy candy...

with this old dmt....i wonder if the molecule can survive being deluted in grain alcohol two times... [over the months]... evaporated.... scraped up and turned into citrate then evaporated leaving this taffy candy? isnt.. fire the only thing that can destroy the dmt molecule?

ps....what does.... [long spaces and general flab],....mean? ill try to omit it in future...

 

[Transform]

Thats posible ...it could have gooed out......but its past that stage now.... its soo dry!..... i dont notice much stickyness at all......i can mould it between my fingers...
right now its so dry it far exceeds honey ...its now like glue thats about 2/3rds dry...
I touched a little to my toung it stings a little at first...but goes to that sour taste citrate is known for.........[i probibly put too much citric acid in my first experament?
with water mostly gone....this is still suposed to be dmt citrate.... acording to info..

There's this thing called stoichiometry. In this case it's a balancing out of the acid and the base at the molecular level. Different molecules weigh whatever they weigh according to the sum of all their constituent atoms. By using this information, one can determine exactly how much of a given acid will react with a specific amount of a given base.

As mentioned earlier, citric acid has up to three protons available to react as an acid, so it will react with up to three equivalents of base. However, each successive proton becomes more reluctant to leave on account of the cumulative negative charge on the resulting citrate. The positively charged protons become more attracted to the citrate molecule as a whole. While the pKb of DMT is sufficient to remove even the third proton, the diifference between that and the pKₐ₃ suggests that just over 0.5% of the citrate will be monoprotonated at any given time, which may affect the cystallisation properties.

Fortunately, in your case it seems as though it's the other extreme - the excess of citric acid is sufficient that unreacted acid is present, so the citrate ions that have formed most like will be in the dihydrogen citrate form, having only given up a single proton to the proportionate amount of DMT base. A taste test isn't really a reliable way of determining the presence of completely unreacted citric acid, though, since the dihydrogencitrate will also be acidic enough to give a sour taste. The stinging, incidentally, is an effect of TRP activation, as discussed in the "Predosing citric acid to boost mescaline" thread:

Predosing Citric acid to boost mescaline experience and others like mushrooms

[H3 id='URLhttpspubs.acs.orgdoipdf10.1021acsmedchemlett.3c00276SIZE4httpspubs.acs.orgdoipdf10.1021acsmedchemlett.3c00276SIZEURL']https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acsmedchemlett.3c00276[/H3] So in this paper that does have conflict of interest due to being tied to a patent but has references...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

However, it is technically possible that two citrate ions could share five protons between them, making a pentahydrogendicitrate ionic dimer. Water of crystallisation likely also comes into play here - citric acid itself preferring to take a hydrated form.

In summary, due to this inexact stoichiometry, combined with DMT citrate's free solubility in water, it seems highly unlikely that you would be able produce clearly defined crystals without having measured out the exact required mass ratios for one or other of the salt forms.

That doesn't mean you won't be able to produce a hard solid capable of being crushed into powder, but there are reasons for strongly suspecting that it will remain amorphous - and probably will tend towards hygroscopicity as previously mentioned, although this latter point also depends on the local relative humidity.

pictures on bottom .... [left image with flash/ right without flash].......notice how it lifts cleanly off the glass bottom of dish as it gets dryer and dryer....its now like taffy candy...

with this old dmt....i wonder if the molecule can survive being deluted in grain alcohol two times... [over the months]... evaporated.... scraped up and turned into citrate then evaporated leaving this taffy candy? isnt.. fire the only thing that can destroy the dmt molecule?

DMT freebase will slowly react with atmospheric oxygen and, given a long enough time of sufficient atmospheric exposure, forms useless tarry decomposition products well below its combustion temperature.

ps....what does.... [long spaces and general flab],....mean? ill try to omit it in future...

Look at the first quote in this post: trying slow evaporation method ...
Multiple empty lines and menu options from the AI webpage mean pointless scrolling.

 

[1Starway7]

There's this thing called stoichiometry. In this case it's a balancing out of the acid and the base at the molecular level. Different molecules weigh whatever they weigh according to the sum of all their constituent atoms. By using this information, one can determine exactly how much of a given acid will react with a specific amount of a given base.

As mentioned earlier, citric acid has up to three protons available to react as an acid, so it will react with up to three equivalents of base. However, each successive proton becomes more reluctant to leave on account of the cumulative negative charge on the resulting citrate. The positively charged protons become more attracted to the citrate molecule as a whole. While the pKb of DMT is sufficient to remove even the third proton, the diifference between that and the pKₐ₃ suggests that just over 0.5% of the citrate will be monoprotonated at any given time, which may affect the cystallisation properties.

Fortunately, in your case it seems as though it's the other extreme - the excess of citric acid is sufficient that unreacted acid is present, so the citrate ions that have formed most like will be in the dihydrogen citrate form, having only given up a single proton to the proportionate amount of DMT base. A taste test isn't really a reliable way of determining the presence of completely unreacted citric acid, though, since the dihydrogencitrate will also be acidic enough to give a sour taste. The stinging, incidentally, is an effect of TRP activation, as discussed in the "Predosing citric acid to boost mescaline" thread:

Predosing Citric acid to boost mescaline experience and others like mushrooms

[H3 id='URLhttpspubs.acs.orgdoipdf10.1021acsmedchemlett.3c00276SIZE4httpspubs.acs.orgdoipdf10.1021acsmedchemlett.3c00276SIZEURL']https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acsmedchemlett.3c00276[/H3] So in this paper that does have conflict of interest due to being tied to a patent but has references...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

However, it is technically possible that two citrate ions could share five protons between them, making a pentahydrogendicitrate ionic dimer. Water of crystallisation likely also comes into play here - citric acid itself preferring to take a hydrated form.

In summary, due to this inexact stoichiometry, combined with DMT citrate's free solubility in water, it seems highly unlikely that you would be able produce clearly defined crystals without having measured out the exact required mass ratios for one or other of the salt forms.

That doesn't mean you won't be able to produce a hard solid capable of being crushed into powder, but there are reasons for strongly suspecting that it will remain amorphous - and probably will tend towards hygroscopicity as previously mentioned, although this latter point also depends on the local relative humidity.

DMT freebase will slowly react with atmospheric oxygen and, given a long enough time of sufficient atmospheric exposure, forms useless tarry decomposition products well below its combustion temperature.

Look at the first quote in this post: trying slow evaporation method ...
Multiple empty lines and menu options from the AI webpage mean pointless scrolling.

Wow...did all this come from you! very good..

The stinging, incidentally, is an effect of TRP activation...what does trp activation mean?..

I figured the stinging might be a good sublingual sign... It stings at first then gets the sour citric taste....

 

[Transform]

The stinging, incidentally, is an effect of TRP activation...what does trp activation mean?..

I meant TRPV1 as per that citric acid boost thread -

Predosing Citric acid to boost mescaline experience and others like mushrooms

[H3 id='URLhttpspubs.acs.orgdoipdf10.1021acsmedchemlett.3c00276SIZE4httpspubs.acs.orgdoipdf10.1021acsmedchemlett.3c00276SIZEURL']https://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/acsmedchemlett.3c00276[/H3] So in this paper that does have conflict of interest due to being tied to a patent but has references...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

TRPV1 is a heat and pain receptor, essentially, which gets activated by things like capsaicin from chilli.

 

[Icon]

Wow...did all this come from you! very good..

Right? Wow that was a great post @Transform !

I'll have to do some research to fully understand it. I've seen stoichiometry mentioned a lot, but the concept, or at least the math behind it is still a mystery to me. And I have a rough understanding of pKa, but I didn't know there was a pKb, or subscript numbers that could be added on. How can you determine "the pKb of DMT is sufficient to remove even the third proton" ?

I'm still a bit confused about proton behavior too. Do they ever actually leave the acid molecule? Are DMT cations and citrate anions separate particles in solution? Or when a proton is said to "leave" [the acid] or be "removed" [by the base], is it actually meant that they're sharing the proton and bonded in solution?

It looks like there's four OH groups in citric acid, but three are in carboxyl groups. Are those three protons in the carboxyl groups the ones that get shared? Why not the one from the hydroxyl?

Where does DMT get protonated? At the pyrrole N or the amine N?

Is that the same N that DMT oxidizes at? Is that why salts prevent the oxidation that freebase experiences? The anion is blocking Oxygen radicals?

 

[1Starway7]

Normally....dmt freebase won't work well sublingually ...

Wouldent this be nice!... if it really would work sublingualy? i still have my doubts...

i have some waxy dmt citrate...and the molecule should still be active....

so...I asked... AI... if dmt citrate .... [even waxy dmt citrate could work sublingualy].... if an MAOI was taken with it?


AI says..........below.

Yes,
DMT citrate is more likely to work sublingually than DMT freebase.
The primary reason DMT freebase does not work sublingually (or orally, without an MAOI) is that it is not water-soluble and is rapidly metabolized by monoamine oxidase (MAO) enzymes in the body, particularly during first-pass metabolism.
DMT citrate, being a salt form, is water-soluble. This increased solubility allows for better absorption through the highly vascularized tissues under the tongue, bypassing the digestive tract and initial first-pass metabolism in the liver.
While sublingual administration of a water-soluble DMT salt improves bioavailability compared to the freebase, it still faces challenges:

• Rapid Metabolism: Even if some of the drug enters the bloodstream directly, MAO enzymes throughout the body will still quickly break it down, resulting in a short duration of action.

 

[Varallo]

Normally....dmt freebase won't work well sublingually ...

Wouldent this be nice!... if it really would work sublingualy? i still have my doubts...

i have some waxy dmt citrate...and the molecule should still be active....

so...I asked... AI... if dmt citrate .... [even waxy dmt citrate could work sublingualy].... if an MAOI was taken with it?


AI says..........below.

Yes,
DMT citrate is more likely to work sublingually than DMT freebase.
The primary reason DMT freebase does not work sublingually (or orally, without an MAOI) is that it is not water-soluble and is rapidly metabolized by monoamine oxidase (MAO) enzymes in the body, particularly during first-pass metabolism.
DMT citrate, being a salt form, is water-soluble. This increased solubility allows for better absorption through the highly vascularized tissues under the tongue, bypassing the digestive tract and initial first-pass metabolism in the liver.
While sublingual administration of a water-soluble DMT salt improves bioavailability compared to the freebase, it still faces challenges:

• Rapid Metabolism: Even if some of the drug enters the bloodstream directly, MAO enzymes throughout the body will still quickly break it down, resulting in a short duration of action.

I mean great that you asked AI but what’s holding you back to just try it ? Especially when you’re combining it with harmalas I suspect it’s going to work nicely, just like the fumarate works to a certain degree.

 

[Transform]

Right? Wow that was a great post @Transform !

Well, a bit rambly, but I try my best

I'll have to do some research to fully understand it. I've seen stoichiometry mentioned a lot, but the concept, or at least the math behind it is still a mystery to me.

It's just a matter of the proportions in which substances react, and how that relates to their molecular mass. This allows us to calculate the masses of reagents to use in a reaction. There's a standard amount of substance called a 'mole' and formerly known as a 'gram molecule'. It's defined as the amount of homogeneous particles (molecules, atoms or ions) the same as that in 12.000 grams of ¹²C, which works out at about 6.022×10²³. A certain John Dalton laid the foundations of this area of chemistry, which had a huge impact on turning it into a quantitative science.

And I have a rough understanding of pKa, but I didn't know there was a pKb, or subscript numbers that could be added on. How can you determine "the pKb of DMT is sufficient to remove even the third proton" ?

Both of those pK terms are derived from equilibrium constants as the negative of the (base 10) logarithm of either the acid dissociation constant (Kₐ), or the corresponding one for protonation of a base (Kb). By comparing their values, it's possible to determine which position of the equilibrium is most favorable. There's plenty of material available on equibrium constants with which one can educate oneself.

I'm still a bit confused about proton behavior too. Do they ever actually leave the acid molecule?

Yes, protons are very mobile. They'll stay bound to atoms with lone pairs of electrons - water molecules in acidic solutions, and amine nitrogens when forming a salt in the particular context of the thread. But there's still a dynamic equilibrium going on. The Kₓ values reflect the statistical occupancy of protonation sites, looking at it another way. Kₐ therefore denotes the relative proportions of dissociated and undissociated acid moieties at a given concentration.

Are DMT cations and citrate anions separate particles in solution? Or when a proton is said to "leave" [the acid] or be "removed" [by the base], is it actually meant that they're sharing the proton and bonded in solution?

There is some degree of electrostatic attraction between the oppositely charged ions, but they remain independently mobile while in solution. They also each maintain a variable and dynamic solvation sphere through hydrogen bonding with water molecules. Ionic bonding only really comes into play once crystallisation happens, ignoring ionic liquids for a moment. There may be occasional moments were a transient hydrogen-bonded ion pair gets formed, but this is relatively rare and also dependent on concentration.

It looks like there's four OH groups in citric acid, but three are in carboxyl groups. Are those three protons in the carboxyl groups the ones that get shared? Why not the one from the hydroxyl?

The aliphatic hydroxyl has a pKₐ in the same kind of range as ethanol. You can look up the pKₐ₄ of citric acid, even. It's above 14, hence it's not significantly deprotonated by normal amine or hydroxylic bases. In the cases of citrate in particular, the triple negative charge resulting from the preferential deprotonation of the carboxy group makes it even harder to remove due to increased electrostatic attraction.

Given a strong enough base, it's theoretically possible to start removing even the protons bound to carbon adjacent to the carboxy groups, but that involves ridiculous things like methyllithium so we needn't go there.

Where does DMT get protonated? At the pyrrole N or the amine N?

The amine N is much more basic than the pyrrole N, so it much prefers to go there. A tiny amount of indole protonation can occur because of the equilibria involved - but indoles can just as easily accept the first proton onto the 3-position carbon, due to the same conjugation that reduces the basicity of the pyrrole N.

Is that the same N that DMT oxidizes at?

DMT freebase can oxidise in the more simple sense of adding an oxygen atom as this is standard behaviour for tertiary amines. A transfer of charge from the amine N lone pair occurs as the main aspect of the N→O dative bond formation. This is quite distinct from the charge transfer out of the pyrrole ring which occurs during oxidative oligomerisation, as far as we're aware.

Is that why salts prevent the oxidation that freebase experiences? The anion is blocking Oxygen radicals?

It's the proton which occupies the oxidation-sensitive lone pair as much as anything. Numerous organic anions can have an antioxidant effect however. Their 'bare' negative charge means they have electrons available to be given up to electron-accepting species preferentially over those of the protonated amine. The mnemonic 'OIL-RIG' is useful here - "oxidation is loss - reduction is gain" (of electrons). Btw, when looked at this way considerable similarities can be seen between acid-base reactions, and redox ones.