vegetarian tannin binding substances for pharmahuasca / aya

[rawmo]

Hey there,

just been doing some more research re tannin binding agents [primarily for the vegetarian/vegan side of things]

Bentonite - did a test the other days.
it seems to work great with the herbal percolator method [just make sure the layer isn't too think or it will take days to seep through].

There also seems to be evidence of pectins binding tannins [including a published study done using mimosa tannins]

Dr. Ann Noble (professor emeritus, UC Davis) stated, during her wine sensory evaluation segment, that the residual astringency following a tasting of a red wine may be countered with a rinse of water with pectin. Pectin is a polysaccharide found in cell walls. Connecting the dots, she mentioned that it is probably the pectin in cell walls that is responsible for its binding to tannin.... The available pectin and/or other polysaccharides would bind to the tannin, making the skins taste less astringent

Also Cellulose and Hemi-Cellulose also seem to be indicated for tannin binding, although this may be due to the presence of pectins also in the cell wall.
ref

Our results indicate that the CDTA-soluble pectins do not participate in tannin binding whereas cellulose and hemicellulose do

Tannin-carbohydrate interactions are increased by carbohydrates with high molecular weight, low solubility and conformational flexibility. These interactions are probably based on hydrophobic and hydrogen linkages.

Cellulose should be available from health food shops.

And of course everyone's favourite! Spit

salivary proteins bind tannins 12 times more efficiently than they bind polymeric pigments

Ask around your friends if you need extra, alternately Camels and Moose spit is even better if you have access.

 

[Dimitrius]

SWIM found bentonite to be effective. Sonne's #7 to exact.

She says that some time ago, she purposefully made a very bitter, very tannic yerba mate/green tea by steeping a large amount of loose leaf in hot water for a long time. She gave it a taste before putting the bentonite in and found it to be VERY tannic, as predicted...pulled the moisture right out of mouth in fact. She then put an unmeasured amount (a modest amount) of bentonite into the tea, stirred well for around 30-45 seconds, let it sit for a few minutes, briefly stirred once more and then filtered out the bentonite. She tasted again and found it to be mostly tannin free. There was still a presence, but it was for the most part gone.

Bentonite gooood.

Edit: SWIM used an Aeropress to filter. She can't remember if it was a pain in the A to filter or not.

SWIM also says she can't remember if this affected the stimulating effects of the tea.

 

[Aegle]

Rawmo

Wicked thread, thank you very much for the information i greatly appreciate it.


Much Peace

 

[T]

SWIM tried bentonite in a bufotenine extraction and it cleared the solution out pretty well. So well it that seems to have pulled out the bufotenine salts as well . But the problem might have been something else. Did anyone notice loss of strenght after using bentonite (not only with bufotenine)?

 

[rawmo]

SWIM tried bentonite in a bufotenine extraction and it cleared the solution out pretty well. So well it that seems to have pulled out the bufotenine salts as well . But the problem might have been something else. Did anyone notice loss of strenght after using bentonite (not only with bufotenine)?

yeah,
my initial experiment seems to agree.
For a caapi herbal percolator with bentonite layer
drinking the liquid to first feelings seems to not have the harmaline effect, [i.e. seems that the bentonite may also bind the good stuff in Caapi].

I'm gonna attempt to do a crystalisation asap and compare to a non bentonite herbal percolator run.

 

[T]

Egg whites and gelatin are positively charged, while bentonite has a negative charge. So it would be great to finish with bentonite because it wouldn't only clear up what the former two couldn't but the remaining egg white/gelatine too; and it can be removed completely with filtering. It's possible to get a completely translucent brew using them this way - but it's stripping the actives too.
If someone with chemistry knowledge could explain why is this happening when the alkaloids are in a salt form and if it's worth experimenting with bentonite maybe on a different ph using diferrent acids etc, it would be great...

 

[Fable]

I was making an Aya brew using caapi and acuminata phyllodes and a friend asked me how I would get rid of the tannins. I went over to the Ayahuasca forums and found plenty of useful information especially regarding the egg white method which I have now tried.
I put 2 egg whites into my brew, gave it a good shake and let it sit for half an hour. I then put the brew on the stove and brought it to the boil. First of all I noticed that there were a lot of brown chunks which was the coagulated egg as expected. The other thing I noticed was the clarity of the brew which was now a clear red brown colour.
I filtered the egg out through a stocking and then a fine cloth and it was very effective. The flavor went from something sour that would strip enamel off your teeth to something much more palatable.
On cooling the solution went cloudy and on reheating the solution was clear. I'm guessing the actives are precipitating out when the solution is cold.
I am impressed by egg white as a fining agent.

 

[rawmo]

I was making an Aya brew using caapi and acuminata phyllodes and a friend asked me how I would get rid of the tannins. I went over to the Ayahuasca forums and found plenty of useful information especially regarding the egg white method which I have now tried.
I am impressed by egg white as a fining agent.

Have you tried egg whites with mimosa hostilis?

 

[Infundibulum]

Egg whites and gelatin are positively charged, while bentonite has a negative charge. So it would be great to finish with bentonite because it wouldn't only clear up what the former two couldn't but the remaining egg white/gelatine too; and it can be removed completely with filtering. It's possible to get a completely translucent brew using them this way - but it's stripping the actives too.
If someone with chemistry knowledge could explain why is this happening when the alkaloids are in a salt form and if it's worth experimenting with bentonite maybe on a different ph using diferrent acids etc, it would be great...

When alkaloids are in their salt form, e.g. in the (acidic) mimosa brew they are positively charged. As such, it can be attracted by the negatively charged bentonite and get carried away with it.

It bentonite can strip off alkaloids, then it may be used for purifying/extracting alkaloids from any material.

 

[rawmo]

It bentonite can strip off alkaloids, then it may be used for purifying/extracting alkaloids from any material.

what would be the easiest way to re-separate the alkaloids off bentonite if you used it as a way to separate them from the rest of the mimosa?

could you basify it and pull the alkaloids off the bentonite by making them freebase and then extract with a non polar solvent?

[seems more work than it'd be worth, but just wondering??]

 

[Infundibulum]

Well, if one can "concentrate" the mimosa decoction by stirring in 20-30g of bentonite then it is worth trying!

As of re-separating the alkaloids form the bentonite, then yeah, one in theory will have to freebase it, e.g. make a paste with water/sodium carbonate/bentonite, let dry and pull with acetone or some alcohol or a suitable non-polar solvent. SWIM does not know if that would work in practise.

SWIM would also like to ask Fable more details on the egg white-bentonite treatment of the mimosa brew, like was the brew devoid of the reddish pigments after the egg white? was the bentonite white or reddish after the treatment?

Ta!