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Virola theiodora resin taken orally without MAOI

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69ron

69ron

Esteemed member
SWIM thought he should share the results of a little test he did last night for those who might be interested.

He took 400 mg of Virola theiodora resin and put it into 1 size OO capsule. It fit perfectly into the capsule. He took this orally with a glass of water. No MAOI was taken. After about 10 minutes he started feeling a very slight 5-MeO-DMT stimulant effect. It seemed to peak after about 1 hour but he’s not sure, the peak was difficult to determine. The overall effects lasted about 3 hours. The effects were threshold. It was enough for mild euphoria, slight stimulation, and a mild tryptamine bodily sensation. It wasn’t enough for any psychoactive effects.

It was quite pleasant and definitely not placebo. Next time SWIM will try 800 mg. That should be enough for mild psychoactive effects.
 
burnt said:
Interesting report. Just to clear though don't certain species of virola contain beta carbolines? if so any idea on what amounts?
Click to expand...

I’ve read that it does, but not from a reliable source. And no amount was specified and no specific beta carboline was mentioned. So I’m skeptical. The information is probably not correct.

I have not seen any reliable information on the alkaloid content of Virola theiodora anywhere. All of what I’ve seen seems to be wrong. For example, the resin is reported over and over to contain 8-10% 5-MeO-DMT, which is absolutely wrong. It’s the snuff made from the resin that contains 8-10% 5-MeO-DMT, not the resin itself. The snuff is a concentrated form of the drug.

I think there haven’t been enough accurate studies on Virola theiodora resin yet to really get an idea of what it actually contains. After finding most of the information out there to be completely wrong, I’d be very skeptical of any information out there about Virola theiodora resin not coming from a reliable source.

It supposedly contains DMT in addition to 5-MeO-DMT, however SWIM’s bioassays have not detected any DMT at all. It seems to just be 5-MeO-DMT. But SWIM never did a professional analysis of the alkaloid content of the resin and it appears no one has. No such studies are published as far as I know.
 
[quote='Coatl]Be careful. You may get sick. I never considered a oral bioassy of Virola.
[/quote]

Why would you think that? The resin has been used orally for hundreds of years, although snorting it is more common.
 
Burnt, all of the studies I've seen are broad and encompass many Virola specifies lumped together, and are not specific to Virola theiodora. But all of them either state only traces of beta carbolines were found or none at all was found. But again, I don’t trust the data. It’s to sparse and non-specific to Virola theiodora. There’s a lot of confusion out there.

All of the Virola theiodora bark and resin SWIM has tested was very low in alkaloids. With some containing just traces. Just look at all the other trip reports, they are either extremely weak or nothing at all was felt. That 8-10% 5-MeO-DMT content you see posted all over the place is just plain wrong. If it were correct, 400 mg of resin would contain about 40 mg of 5-MeO-DMT, which is a very psychoactive dose when taken orally. It’s just not correct. 400 mg only produces threshold effects with no psychoactivity at all. A 400 mg dose of the resin is about equivalent to 5-10 mg of 5-MeO-DMT, not 40.

I’d like to see a study performed by someone reliable that gives the actual content of DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and any other alkaloids present. From SWIM’s tests the 5-MeO-DMT content in the resin is between 1 and 2.5 %. The 5-MeO-DMT content in the bark is about 0.005% or less. That’s based on bioassays only. SWIM never detected DMT or the effect of any other alkaloids other than 5-MeO-DMT. From SWIM’s tests he believes the resin to be completely void of any other alkaloids in active levels.
 
I believe it is the source of the resin available on the open market. It is crap. There have been studies performed and have confirmed high alkaloid contents, the contents are very variable depending on the sources same with anadenanthera snuff preparations.
Chagnon found that two samples of yakoana (Virola preperation) contained only .15 and 2.0 % 5-MeO-DMT and its N-oxides respectively. (Chagnon et al. 1970). Snuffs from anadenthera are reported by many natives and anthropologists to be much stronger than those from virola. Chagnon reported some anadenthera snuffs containing up to 7.4 % bufotenine!!! (Chagnon 1971). There is one report by Agurell 1969, found that the snuff nyakwana (a virola prep) was found to have a level of 10% 5MeO. This is incredible amount however it is quite apparent that the levels are very variable between preparations. Also these snuffs contain other less understood plant additives. The current snuffs available appear to be crap but this doesn't mean good resin doesn't exist out there. The species and individual plant certainly are important.

69ron do you have a copy of the book Anadenanthera Visionary Plant of Ancient South America by Torres and Repke? it is a great book on anad species and preperations, chemistry, pharmacology... Anyone interested in these trees or bufotenine should check it out. It has some great archeological evidence for early tryptamine usage. Check out the book it has everything about these snuffs. Including pics of pipes, snuff tubes, snuff trays, and art...
 
Interesting. Was just curious because some information on virola's in a book and it said they contained beta carbolines and a number of other alkaloids but no information about amounts and no referance. Could just be trace amounts or old literature that made mistakes causing the confusion. Maybe taxonomical issues as well. Anyway it would be interesting to get some more solid data on some of these things.
 
There are many studies published. Many snuffs, and plants have been analyzed for alkaloid concentrations. Check out the above mentioned book it has 100's of studies seriously. They even analyzed old samples of snuffs and seeds found buried with people. (Bufotenine is stable) The more powerful/wealthy they were the stronger the alkaloid concentration in some cases...
 
Some snuff preps have been shown to have beta carbolines present although they may have come from additive plants. Andanenthera species have been found to have beta carbolines present although there activities are not known. Also they are found in very low concentrations. Cappi is believed to be an additive to some snuffs, some snuff preparations have been found to only contain beta carbolines. Two beta carboline carrying substitution in the 6 position were found to be present in V. theidors, V rufula. Also different parts of the plants have different alk expression and concentrations.
 
Perhaps I've mis-read, it isn't totally clear to me so maybe I have, but seems to me that Ott in one or two things obliquely suggests 5meo may show oral activity at high enough doses. Might have grabbed the wrong end of the stick though... I'm thinking of the bufo paper mainly I think.
 
Yes 5-MeO-DMT is active orally without MAOI. SWIM can confirm that. He's tried it with pure synthetic 5-MeO-DMT in the past.

SWIM has found the resin to be fairly consistent in alkaloid content at about 1-2.5%, which doesn’t match any of the tests I’ve read.

Bufoman, I do own a copy of that book. The problem is, and the book states it very clearly, that lots of confusion exists about the species in question, so much of that work is pretty useless in terms of Virola theiodora. Using analysis based on snuff is inaccurate because many additives are often mixed in.

Tests done solely on Virola theiodora are very much lacking. In most of the tests done, there is some uncertainty about the species used in the test making the test unreliable.

For a test to be at all useful, they need at least 10 different Virola theiodora batches that are absolutely Virola theiodora, with no question at all. They need to test for all the alkaloids and their amounts. To date no such tests exists. That book has lots of test reports, but none that are that useful.
 
Many of the reports are very useful. Just because you personally are not interested in them I wouldn't say they are not useful. it is still interesting to know what is present in the snuff. Agurell using gas chromatography. Many alkaloids were reported. The bark leaves and flowering shoots were all evaluated and it was identified as V. theiodora including those in the book.
Not to sound like a dick but i am not sure that you looked very hard as there are many well done studies using this plant:

Virola theiodora (Benth) Warburg
128 gm of leaves and stems gave 93 mg. of crude basic fraction. They were unable to find substituted tryptamine (negative vanUrk's) and did not investigate further.
235 gm. of bark yielded 40 mg. of crude basic fraction;
from 10 mg. of which the following was isolated:
1 mg. of 2-methyl-6-methoxy-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline
1 mg. of N,N-dimethyltryptamine
2 mg. of N-methyltryptamine
and 2 components which were not identified
Cassady et al. (1972) in Mothes; pp.95-99


[Schultes #24595; Origin: Manaos, Brazil]
250 mg. of alkaloid / 100 gm. of dry bark:
52% N,N-dimethyltryptamine
43% 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
4% 6-methoxy-2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline
1% N-methyltryptamine
17 mg. of alkaloid / 100 gm. of dry roots:
63% 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
22% N,N-dimethyltryptamine
15% 5-methoxy-N-methyltryptamine
470 mg. of alkaloid / 100 gm. of dry flowers: & shoots:
93% N,N-dimethyltryptamine
7% N-methyltryptamine
44 mg. of alkaloid / 100 gm. of dry leaves:
99% N,N-dimethyltryptamine
Tr. 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
(Holmstedt et al. 1980 says 100% DMT)
Agurell et al. 1969


[Schultes #24626; Origin: Tototobi, Brazil]
65 mg. of alkaloid / 100 gm. of dry bark:
95% 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
5% N,N-dimethyltryptamine
21 mg. of alkaloid / 100 gm. of dry leaves:
98% N,N-dimethyltryptamine
2% 2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-β-carboline
Agurell et al. 1969



There have been other studies performed as well on virola species here are a few for anyone interested:


Alkaloids in certain species of Virola and other South American plants of ethnopharmacologic interest, by S. Agurell; B. Holmstedt; J.E. Lindgren; R.E. Schultes
Acta Chem Scand Vol 23 (No 3) 1969; 903-916

Constituents of the bark of Virola sebifera, by E. Corothie; T. Nakano
Planta Med Vol 17 (No 2) 1969; 184-188

Investigation on fats of Virola surinamenis; I. Glyceride and acid composition, and chemical nature of various unsaponificable components, by R. Baruffaldi; E. Fedeli; N. Cortesi
Rev Farm Bioquim Vol 13 (No 1) Jan-Jun 1975; 91-102

The isolation of 6-methoxyharmalan and 6-methoxyharman from Virola cuspidata, by J.M. Cassady; G.E. Blair; R.F. Raffauf; V.E. Tyler
Lloydia Vol 34 (No 1) 1971; 161-162

Monoamine oxidase inhibitors in South American hallucinogenic plants Part 2: Constituents of orally-active Myristicaceous hallucinogens, by D.J. McKenna; G.H. Towers; F.S. Abbott
Journal of Ethnopharmacology Vol 12 (No 2) 1984; 179-211

Phytochemical investigation of Virola peruviana, a new hallucinogenic plant, by A. Lai; M. Tin-Wa; E.S. Mika; G.J. Persinos; N.R. Farnsworth
J Pharm Sci Vol 62 (No 9) 1973; 1561-1563

A multidisciplinary overview of intoxicating snuff rituals in the western hemisphere, by P.A. de Smet
Journal of Ethnopharmacology Vol 13 (No 1) 1985; 3-49

An ethnopharmacological examination of Virola elongata bark: a South American arrow poison, by W.D. MacRae; G.H. Towers
Journal of Ethnopharmacology Vol 12 (No 1) Oct 1984; 75-92

Justicia pectoralis: a study of the basis for its use as a hallucinogenic snuff ingredient, by W.D. MacRae; G.H. Towers
Journal of Ethnopharmacology Vol 12 (No 1) Oct 1984; 93-111

Virola: a promising genus for ethnopharmacological investigation, by M.J. Plotkin; R.E. Schultes
Journal of Psychoactive Drugs Vol 22 (No 3) Jul-Sep 1990; 357-361
 
Thanks for posting that info, but none of those are good studies because they only tested a small batch and none have tested the resin. Nothing conclusive can come from those tests about the content of the resin which is the subject of this thread.

Where do the claims on the internet of resin containing 8-10% 5-MeO-DMT come from? Is there a study you know of that shows this to be real? If so, please post it.
 
They are absolutly good studies. They used very good analytical techniques. Many have been performed. I'm not sure what you are looking for but the amount is irrelavant if good equipment is used. As far as many different sources plant sources some of them did this. Check it out. This is conjunction with the snuff analysis is a lot of information. The resin comes from the bark. Furthermore the 5-MeO from the snuffs is from virola not from other additives as none are known to have sig levels of 5-MeO. And many of the additives have been chemically evaluated. All of these studies in conjunction present a lot of information egarding the chemical composition.

The claims of the 10% resin come form the study done by Augrell 1969. Although it was a virola snuff preperation that was evaluated. However the other additives were unlikely to have 5-MeO in them as no other none plants additives are known to.
 
You're missing my point. I’d like to see studies of the actual resin, not the snuff or the bark. The bark is pretty useless as you can see. It contains very little alkaloids. The resin is where most of it lies.

The 10% in snuff is irrelevant. The snuff is a concentrated form of the drug. It's often made by pouring water through the resin, and then dried, so it's definitely going to have much more 5-MeO-DMT in it than the raw resin has. I’ve seen the natives make it. They make a funnel type of device out of leaves. They put the resin in it. They pour water over it. They collect the water and discard the resin. They dry it and add ash and other stuff to it, so it's quite different from raw resin.
 
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