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WARNING: German MHRB not safe! Stay AWAY!

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Brennendes Wasser

Brennendes Wasser

Esteemed member
Senior Member
Senior member Chemical engineer
Hello all, I have an urgent warning:​

Obviously in Europe it is possible to order MHRB from Netherlands, but also since quite some years it is simply offered on Ebay also in Germany, stating that there is no conflict in laws if it is only used as a dye.

This way a lot of shops offered MHRB products for regular sale. THIS IS NOT SAFE ANYMORE.

Already in 2018 a Shop was closed and the owner possibly now in Jail. All his clients are now being accused for the possession of controlled substances. They are accused just by the fact that they made an order in this shop.

Now comes the thrilling part:

The amount of DMT, which will exceed the *low volume* and thus will greatly potentiaty any juristic sentence, was stated to 3,6 g of Freebase in 2013. This is highly debatable, because it was not based on scientific data and only based on the inhalation administration, which will create many more doses per total weight.

Still this is then used to determine the height of the shop's customers sentence, converting 100 % of the potential ingredients into substance possession.

A sample of the shop MHRB was sent to the University of Saarland to determine a content.

They grinded it and did an Ethanol soak, afterwards they applied it into Gas Chromatography, which granted a content of 3,09 % of DMT ?!?

This means that even buying a small amount of 120 g treebark now will make you being in possession of more than the *low volume*, which will mean 1 year of jail.

All the people who ordered 1 kg of Treebark from this shop, which seems a very common ordering size, are now accused of possessing more than 8x this critical amount, which equals 1300 LSD Tabs or 1600 XTC tabletts for example.


This is insane and means that if this shop was already raided in 2018, no other shops are safe as the tree bark is directly regarded as the controlled substance.

Also if that shop's customers are now receiving letters from police, even more may come in for other people, who from shops that may have beeen closed since now.

I highly want to warn anybody at least in Germany to not ever buy any bark. The fines are immense and a root bark worth less than 50 € may already cause jail.

Please stay safe, not only due to Corona Virus!


(Too bad my Post #500 is about this topic)
 
Thanks for trying to warn others about dangers, this is def important and german people should keep in mind.

That being said, for this and other reasons we've completely removed any talk about sourcing of dried plant material like MHRB.

I edited your post to remove some of the more specific comments regarding the shop, please lets avoid any such mentions and keep this thread as a warning and only for legal discussion.
 
With all due respect, I'm a little confused.

Are people really being sent to jail, or is this just the police sending out strongly worded harrasment letters? Do you have any outside sources regarding this situation?

DMT is generally beneficial for humans when taken responsibly as I understand the current scientific research (for example ayahuasca church members show 40% improved memory over the general population). Are the German authorities really going to destroy people's lives and tear apart families over some 2+ year old plant material?

I understand the answer could be yes and don't want anyone to take the situation lightly. Just looking for clarity on what is exactly happening. Thank you.
 
I'm cofused by the wording of the post as well. If it's a German prosecution, I do not see how anyone outside Germany could be charged. Doubt an extradition order will be signed over something like that.

That said, I have been warning people for some time to only order domestically if they use mail. Having things go through customs is a good way to get caught and in the states, they don't bother testing substances purity, only qualitiative tests are used in prosecutions, meaning 100 grams bark=100 grams processed freebase for prosecutorial purposes.

How useful this advice is is now in question at least for Germans.
 
Are the German authorities really going to destroy people's lives and tear apart families over some 2+ year old plant material?
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Yes, they really are that petty and wrapped up in the drug law rhetoric. Freedom here to drink alcohol and smoke tobacco only. Of course, anything constituting self-incrimination should be avoided. Do not say anything to the police without legal advice - and any good legal advice will tell you not to say anything to the police. It seems very likely to me that the first step taken by law enforcement is sending a letter of harassment - or is the purchase record being considered sufficient to warrant physical intrusion into people's lives, BW?
The people behind these decisions have names and faces and their role in this perpetuation of injustice deserves to be exposed.


I'm presuming the shop that was closed in 2018 was based in Germany?

Brennendes Wasser - do you have any links to media coverage, court reports and/or the relevant legislation (BtmG, or something else?); also for the Saarland Uni analysis?
 
Hí,
this is exactly what happened to me in December 2019. Must be the same vendor in germany.
As you mentioned, harsh letter from the police and so on.
Long story short, I got a lawyer and did not speak a word to the police. After three months charges were dropped.
All in all a bad experience.
Stay save everyone!
 
Hello everybody

Keep in mind if you live in the south of germany they will probably search your house.
They will also charge you for an empty container if there are trace amounts of anything.
Stupidity at its best.
Good friend of mine payed 800 Euros for a bag that formerly contained weed.


Stay safe everybody
 
Such a waste of law enforcement and tax revenue...

Oregon is proving to be the first state willing to display it's enlightenment. To that I say bravo!:thumb_up:
 
null24 said:
I'm cofused by the wording of the post as well. If it's a German prosecution, I do not see how anyone outside Germany could be charged. Doubt an extradition order will be signed over something like that. How useful this advice is is now in question at least for Germans.
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True, this will at the first point only stick to German people, even though people from abroad also bought from that Ebay Shop. I have a lot of information on that specific case.



It seems very likely to me that the first step taken by law enforcement is sending a letter of harassment - or is the purchase record being considered sufficient to warrant physical intrusion into people's lives, BW?
The people behind these decisions have names and faces and their role in this perpetuation of injustice deserves to be exposed.


I'm presuming the shop that was closed in 2018 was based in Germany?

Brennendes Wasser - do you have any links to media coverage, court reports and/or the relevant legislation (BtmG, or something else?); also for the Saarland Uni analysis?
Click to expand...

Yes the shop was closed in 2018. Ebay gave over any information of people that bought there, 700 people from Germany and 200 from abroad. Based on that 3,09 % a purchase of 150+ g MHRB will be regarded as major volume possession.

I could give quite much information about this case, as I know the facts from the closest possible. But not sure if I should write that down already.
 
IIRC good bark can contain 3% DMT, so that 3.09% is not that far off, although this particular bark may have been less DMT rich. The ethanol soak was probably very impure, but also not 100% efficient if it was just one pull.

Regardless, it's a very sad story.
 
Thanks for filling in a bit more, BW. I'd be very interested in seeing an anonymised outline of the case and links to publicly available information as this type of cognitive liberty issue relates directly to my ongoing interest in the interface between plants, consciousness, chemistry and society. It's a(n ugly) facet of European ethnopharmacology.
 
Jagube said:
IIRC good bark can contain 3% DMT, so that 3.09% is not that far off, although this particular bark may have been less DMT rich. The ethanol soak was probably very impure, but also not 100% efficient if it was just one pull.

Regardless, it's a very sad story.
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Did the authorities do a quantitative analysis of the bark? If they did, that's downright forward thinking for a draconian state. In the U.S, Austrailia, and many other places, the entire weight of the vegetable matter is considered as the weight of processed product. 150 grams of bark= 150 grams pure DMT.
 
downwardsfromzero said:
I'd be very interested in seeing an anonymised outline of the case and links to publicly available information as this type of cognitive liberty issue relates directly to my ongoing interest in the interface between plants, consciousness, chemistry and society.
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So here is an Update, also end to this story:

fatherseb said:
this is exactly what happened to me in December 2019. Must be the same vendor in germany.
As you mentioned, harsh letter from the police and so on.
Long story short, I got a lawyer and did not speak a word to the police. After three months charges were dropped.
All in all a bad experience.
Click to expand...

Same ending in the case I know. Case closed due to a lack of evidence? Or something like this.

Now here is the story, I guess this can be told here - if there are too many details, I may delete some stuff:

There was a German Ebay Seller who sold packages of MHRB and Kratom on Ebay for years. Apparently that dude was a total douchebag, at least on that day in 2018 when he became super high on whatever and started to throw all of his cartonages with Kratom and MHRB out of his Window.

People called the Police (why WTF??) who approached him and then he told them stories switching between in his flat is a fire and his flat is overflooded with water - so he throws his stuff into the yeard.

The Police took all that samples and they actually had to google *Kratom* and *MHRB* 😁 , then checking all the background information. When asked what he does with all these things, he told he creates Tea from this and sells some material on Ebay. Now the police closed his shop and asked Ebay for all sales from 2017 - 2018 and these were 900 sales. Just as a side note here, even though they knew that Kratom is not illegal, also all his Kratom was destroyed along with MHRB??

The data was *stored* for further usage via burning on a CD-ROM (Robocop Time-Traveller :twisted: :d :d :d Actually in Germany there are Jokes around of the Government talking about Digitalisation and not knowing/doing a thing. At least these Cops used robust data storage methods) just as a quick sidenote.

All the sales ranging from 50 g to 5000 g were chased back to their buyers. As I told already 150 g will cause the person to be above the critical amount. This was the case for 700+ of these transactions. Due to multiple buys, there was a list of then 600 individual people with 3/4 from Germany and 1/4 from abroad.

Due to the prosecutor's decision all people that made a buy from that shop and lived in Germany at that time were prosecuted. Still, all the data of people from abroad was sent to their respective countries and making the decision of prosecution up to the local authorities.

The Ebay seller has refused to speak and will continue to do so likely, probably he is in Jail anyways since quite some time. Even the small amount of bark seized was already quite high and Ebay gave a detailed list of all the transactions over 2 years. :cry:

Still, pretty nice that it seems the proces was ended with no sentense in the buyers' cases known right now ... nevertheless a pretty scary story :shock: :!:



PS:

Regarding the analysis, which was then used for ALL the cases from 2017 - 2018 ...

Samples were sent to University of Saarland to the Institute of Rechtsmedizin and they took 10 % of every batch of MHRB seized, mixed this and then took again 10 % of this is as sample. This was grinded and a small portion placed into Ethanol. Then via GC-MS the content was retrieved, once regularly and then once after Acetylation. No Idea why you would need/want a derivatisation of the molecule in this case ...

This rendered 3,01 % of DMT content. :!:
 
Thanks for the update.

It really highlights the importance of NOT SAYING ANYTHING TO THE POLICE!


Where would one find details of the University of Saarland's analysis?
 
Brennendes Wasser said:
Hello all, I have an urgent warning:​
[...]
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As far as I know from the BtMG Animals and Plants containing DMT are legal if their use for the production of narcotics can't be directly proven (In Germany). This means if they search your house and find nothing but a bag of MHRB you can be totally sure they need to drop the case. So they can prosecute you all day long without valid proof.
Although a lawyer is always the right choice as well as to give no information other than your ID to the LE. Furthermore (I know from a personal account) they need to run an analysis on your personal possessed BtM and can't simply generalize it. Speed is a good example for this the quick test the LE uses goes off, even when the Amphetamine content is lower than 1%, so you will be prosecuted, but for a conviction the actual amount of Amphetamine is decisive. They always need a chemical analysis and this need to be dead proof because your lawyer can turn any blunder against them.
 
As far as I know from the BtMG Animals and Plants containing DMT are legal if their use for the production of narcotics can't be directly proven (In Germany)
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So that may be true, but in these internal police documents, they already wrote down that people will probably try to argument that they use it for a coloring dye. And that this is highly unlikely due to the high cost of the bark per g (for a dye in general) and also the big amount that people would buy.

No idea if you are really safe if they just find MHRB or no idea if its the other way around, that they are already prepared for this explanation and will neutralize it with what I just wrote, but it may be something inbetween.

They always need a chemical analysis and this need to be dead proof because your lawyer can turn any blunder against them.
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At least thats something hopeful, that 3 % of Bark Content was averaged above all current cases and no idea if this would still be usable for current cases, but for all the cases that bought bark which is provable not originating from these batches, no content can be determined retrospectively. :?
 
downwardsfromzero said:
I would have thought most people only have mimosa bark because it's a superlative tannin source for eczema treatment. 'Obviously' :|
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I got rid of all of my eczema that way even before they show up 😉 :lol: :lol:

The thing is that they need to proof you guilty first of all....you could use this bark for almost everything even it its whatever unlikely there is still no proof.
 
Postboten dürfen auf Verdacht Pakete öffnen
Der Bundestag hat am Freitag einen Gesetzesentwurf verabschiedet, der Postboten gestattet, ihnen verdächtig erscheinende Pakete künftig zu öffnen, meldet focus.de. Dadurch sollen mehr Sendungen mit verbotenem Inhalt entdeckt werden. Um ein Paket öffnen zu dürfen, müsse es laut Entwurf „zureichende tatsächliche Anhaltspunkte“ für einen entsprechenden Sendungsinhalt geben, beispielsweise wenn es auffällig riecht oder anderweitig verdächtig erscheint. Zu den „inkriminierten Gütern“, die damit abgefangen werden sollten, zählten nicht nur Drogen, sondern auch Waffen sowie Sprengstoff und Dopingmittel.

Der Gesetzentwurf, der auf einer Initiative des Bundesrats basiere, verpflichte Beschäftigte von Postdienstleistern, verdächtige Pakete nach dem Öffnen der Polizei vorzulegen. Unternehmen könnten mit Geldbuße von bis zu 500.000 Euro bestraft werden, wenn ihre Mitarbeiter diese Informationspflicht verletzen.
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English (auto) translation:

Postmen are allowed to open parcels on suspicion
The Bundestag passed a draft law on Friday that allows postmen to open packages that appear suspicious to them in the future, reports focus.de . The aim is to discover more programs with prohibited content. In order to be allowed to open a parcel, according to the draft, there must be “sufficient actual indications” for a corresponding shipment content, for example if it smells conspicuously or otherwise appears suspicious. The "incriminated goods" that were supposed to be intercepted with it included not only drugs, but also weapons, explosives and doping agents.

The draft law, which is based on an initiative of the Federal Council, obliges employees of postal service providers to present suspicious parcels to the police after opening them. Companies could be fined up to 500,000 euros if their employees violate this information obligation.


Take care guys!
 
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