What Holds in the Atmosphere?

[JDSalinger]

Hello a question for anyone that cares to read, the earth was formed 4.6 billion years ago and during the first 500 million years gases escaped from the planets core and formed our atmosphere.

What I cannot figure out is how something light enough to leave the surface of the planet all of a sudden stops rising? Space is pretty much a vacuum, so what kept the gasses from being sucked into the vacuum of space. The ISS has airlocks before anyone goes out yet 21% of our atmosphere is oxygen and somehow became an exception to this rule?? Also the higher I go the less oxygen I get so why does it not fall back??

 

[JDSalinger]

I have three magnets in a row, A, B and C. B in the middle being earth, I place A and C on either side of B till I find a sweet spot where they do not attract each other anymore.
Now I move B, towards A, replicating the earth's rotation around the sun and the magnets filling in for earths gravitational force, (since no two objects I can find exhibit any signs of gravity, besides in their direct relation to the earth, magnets will suffice) as I do C stays put, and A once again under magnetic influence connects to B. How is it then that gravity both suspends and pulls, while holding us on the earth at the same time??

 

[arcologist]

Hello a question for anyone that cares to read, the earth was formed 4.6 billion years ago and during the first 500 million years gases escaped from the planets core and formed our atmosphere.

Not quite, the atmosphere was formed in several ways: volcanic/geological, from space (comets), oxygen from photosynthetic bacteria.

What I cannot figure out is how something light enough to leave the surface of the planet all of a sudden stops rising? Space is pretty much a vacuum, so what kept the gasses from being sucked into the vacuum of space. The ISS has airlocks before anyone goes out yet 21% of our atmosphere is oxygen and somehow became an exception to this rule?? Also the higher I go the less oxygen I get so why does it not fall back??

Gravity. Some of the lighter gasses have already escaped (e.g. hydrogen).

 

[arcologist]

How is it then that gravity both suspends and pulls, while holding us on the earth at the same time??

The planets are suspended in orbits due to the pull of gravity against the centripetal force. The planets are always "falling" toward the sun's gravity well, but are going so fast that their momentum balances the gravitational force at their orbital distance. Similarly we are always falling toward the earth's gravity well, we're just usually stopped by the ground. If we went fast enough (e.g. in a rocket) we would enter orbit because the velocity would balance the gravitational pull.

The electromagnetic force isn't a good analogy for gravity because gravity only pulls things together. Electric charges can be positive or negative, hence the attractive/repulsive duality.

 

[upwaysidedown]

How is it then that gravity both suspends and pulls, while holding us on the earth at the same time??

arcologist is right.

And to add to it, the atmosphere is not suspended by gravity. Gravity is just the force that weakly attracts mass together.

Crudely (as there are many things involved), the gas we call the atmosphere is suspended by its own energy - which is largely from kinetic movement of its atoms (i.e. its temperature). If a particle has enough energy to escape - it does. Just like a rocket can escape.

If you think of the atmosphere (or in fact any gas) as loads of ping pong balls bouncing against each other in a vaccuum, and those ping pong balls getting energy pumped into them from the heat of the sun, and them bouncing all off each other (because its like a sea of them, but they have so much energy and they are so light they are all fluffed up into a big atmosphere) Then you can start to understand the basics of gas and air pressure (air pressure being the force that gets exerted by all those ping pong balls hitting things) - these particles are generally moving at the speed of sound.

The only part that gravity plays is to generally pull them all towards the earth, each particle will generally fall back down eventually unless it has loads of energy. (And even those high energy ones near ground level will almost certainly dissipate the energy by hitting others on their way up.

If you need proof that the atmosphere is suspended by its temperature - think about what happens when you cool it to a liquid or solid (which can be done fairly easily for some of the gasses e.g. CO2) its not going to be suspended any more.

 

[pitubo]

A good question.

Another phenomenon to observe is the discrete layering of the atmosphere. How does simple gas kinetics explain that? Why is the underside of most clouds flat, while the top side bulges?

Gravitation does not explain the planetary orbits completely and correctly: Stability of the Solar System - Wikipedia.

The hypothesis of cometary origin of atmosphere or oceans has become hardly tenable since all recent actual explorations of comets by space probes have shown them to look like dry rocks.

 

[upwaysidedown]

A good question.

Another phenomenon to observe is the discrete layering of the atmosphere. How does simple gas kinetics explain that? Why is the underside of most clouds flat, while the top side bulges?

Gravitation does not explain the planetary orbits completely and correctly: Stability of the Solar System - Wikipedia.

The hypothesis of cometary origin of atmosphere or oceans has become hardly tenable since all recent actual explorations of comets by space probes have shown them to look like dry rocks.

What is the objective here? Are you

1. Trying to illustrate that science does not describe the whole of existence
2. Trying to point out science is wrong?
3. Just curious?

For 1. This is clearly the case otherwise we would not need to research it any more, and things we don't understand yet are great places for research. Science also cannot at this time investigate all areas of existence. For example let us assume that ghosts were real, but that they do not show up on photographs or leave any physical evidence. We cannot therefore investigate this using existing science, as we cannot produce a ghost at will in a lab environment - neither can we present a pile of physical evidence to encourage research. Ball lightning does leave physical evidence, and until very recently this considered mythical. I am not saying this means ghosts are real, I am using it as an example of why science cannot investigate or be an authority on everything even things which may be part of the physical world - its not meant as a basis for personal philosophy, but it is a tool to manage things we have found a lot out about.

2. Science is never 100% correct AFAIK, but a lot of the models for things are stunningly accurate. And some things we are yet to work out properly. Anyone who falls into Scientism, and thinks our current scientific knowledge is all there is, is deluded (see above).

3. Clouds have flat bottoms: "Because air pressure decreases at the rate of 0.91 inches per 1,000 feet of ascent, rising air expands and cools. The flat bottoms of cumulus clouds define the exact height at which a critical combination of temperature and air pressure causes water vapor within the rising current to condense into a visible cloud." <- straight from Googling the question. The tops of clouds have no such constraints. I did do Atmospheric physics a long time ago, but I was never that good at it or that interested. And so yes, actually this kenetic model of gasses does explain why the bottoms of cumulus clouds are flat.

As for the issue with the solar system, well we can describe it in short timescales very accurately, but there are definitely other things in play since the models don't work for long time periods. So yes, science isn't finished yet - more to find out.

 

[Ulim]

Hello a question for anyone that cares to read, the earth was formed 4.6 billion years ago and during the first 500 million years gases escaped from the planets core and formed our atmosphere.

What I cannot figure out is how something light enough to leave the surface of the planet all of a sudden stops rising? Space is pretty much a vacuum, so what kept the gasses from being sucked into the vacuum of space. The ISS has airlocks before anyone goes out yet 21% of our atmosphere is oxygen and somehow became an exception to this rule?? Also the higher I go the less oxygen I get so why does it not fall back??

Simply put
Its just like pouring oil onto water. Oil is lighter than water so it floats to the top just like air does above the rock that is below our feet.
Gravity keeps the oil and air from floating away.

Also our atmosphere does lose gases that are blown away by solar wind.

 

[JDSalinger]

In reply to all comments, I get it all, I really do I am by no means unable to grasp and comprehend these ideas. But to be quite honest it really does not make any sense. I believe that in seeking truth, I must dispel any notion that goes against my own own experience, observations and discernment regardless of popular opinion or education.
I ask brothers and sisters, if you remove yourself of these preconceived ideas and think about it all does it really make any REMOVED sense??

I know that I know nothing

Much love Xx

 

[Ulim]

In reply to all comments, I get it all, I really do I am by no means unable to grasp and comprehend these ideas. But to be quite honest it really does not make any sense. I believe that in seeking truth, I must dispel any notion that goes against my own own experience, observations and discernment regardless of popular opinion or education.
I ask brothers and sisters, if you remove yourself of these preconceived ideas and think about it all does it really make any REMOVED sense??

I know that I know nothing

Much love Xx

You can easily reproduce the atmosphere in your own room. Science isnt just stating something and then hold it for a fact. Science is seeking the thruth. You look at things, you compare them, you understand them. You look how gases interact. Then you just scale it up and add all the other stuff you need (coriolis effect, liquid dynamics) and you have a pretty detailed estimate of your atmoshpere.

If you cant grasp something why dont you rely on the work of thousands of people who checked all the possibilites just to find the thruth.

 

[1ce]

Hello a question for anyone that cares to read, the earth was formed 4.6 billion years ago and during the first 500 million years gases escaped from the planets core and formed our atmosphere.

What I cannot figure out is how something light enough to leave the surface of the planet all of a sudden stops rising? Space is pretty much a vacuum, so what kept the gasses from being sucked into the vacuum of space. The ISS has airlocks before anyone goes out yet 21% of our atmosphere is oxygen and somehow became an exception to this rule?? Also the higher I go the less oxygen I get so why does it not fall back??

Can you verify your claims? Because the age of the earth is purely speculation based ?? I'm not even sure how we got to that number tbh.

Next time use google. It's much. Much faster and doesn't consume the time of others to do it for you.

Serious question though, why ask this here? It clutters the forums.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Hello a question for anyone that cares to read, the earth was formed 4.6 billion years ago and during the first 500 million years gases escaped from the planets core and formed our atmosphere.

What I cannot figure out is how something light enough to leave the surface of the planet all of a sudden stops rising? Space is pretty much a vacuum, so what kept the gasses from being sucked into the vacuum of space. The ISS has airlocks before anyone goes out yet 21% of our atmosphere is oxygen and somehow became an exception to this rule?? Also the higher I go the less oxygen I get so why does it not fall back??

Simply put
Its just like pouring oil onto water. Oil is lighter than water so it floats to the top just like air does above the rock that is below our feet.
Gravity keeps the oil and air from floating away.

Also our atmosphere does lose gases that are blown away by solar wind.

Though earth does lose atmosphere, it's the upper atmosphere, and it takes billions of years time.

Though you got it completely right, the answer to what keeps earth atmosphere is as simple as a single word, gravity.

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

In reply to all comments, I get it all, I really do I am by no means unable to grasp and comprehend these ideas. But to be quite honest it really does not make any sense. I believe that in seeking truth, I must dispel any notion that goes against my own own experience, observations and discernment regardless of popular opinion or education.
I ask brothers and sisters, if you remove yourself of these preconceived ideas and think about it all does it really make any REMOVED sense??

I know that I know nothing

Much love Xx

You can easily reproduce the atmosphere in your own room. Science isnt just stating something and then hold it for a fact. Science is seeking the thruth. You look at things, you compare them, you understand them. You look how gases interact. Then you just scale it up and add all the other stuff you need (coriolis effect, liquid dynamics) and you have a pretty detailed estimate of your atmoshpere.

If you cant grasp something why dont you rely on the work of thousands of people who checked all the possibilites just to find the thruth.

I respectfully disagree.

“You have to take seriously the notion that understanding the universe is your responsibility, because the only understanding of the universe that will be useful to you is your own understanding.”
― Terence McKenna

I think the notion that "I don't understand it, but I'm glad somebody else does" is a means of dodging the responsibility of personal growth and education.

I would recommend taking the evidence generated by the experts in the field, and testing every aspect of it, it's your job to test and confirm the accepted narrative to ensure that it is consistent with observation.

If this person does not understand how gravity holds in the atmosphere, than they should pour over the accepted facts, and put them to the test.

(Though from context I understand exactly what you meant, you can't deny something just because the concepts are over your head )

-eg

 

[JDSalinger]

You can easily reproduce the atmosphere in your own room. Science isnt just stating something and then hold it for a fact. Science is seeking the thruth. You look at things, you compare them, you understand them. You look how gases interact. Then you just scale it up and add all the other stuff you need (coriolis effect, liquid dynamics) and you have a pretty detailed estimate of your atmoshpere.

If you cant grasp something why dont you rely on the work of thousands of people who checked all the possibilites just to find the thruth.

I am sure I can, I trust you on that friend. What I cannot do is test why the atmosphere hangs around the earth.
Suppose I fall from any height below the atmosphere, I would fall back regardless, once I surpass this I float away into the vacuum of space. So where is the inbetween? Not just that but as we 'are moving' through space part of the earth is pushing and the other pulling with some inbetween. I cannot test this, so using my own logic and understanding the principles in play I evaluate it myself and the resulting conlclusion is confusion. Do you get me?

 

[JDSalinger]

Can you verify your claims? Because the age of the earth is purely speculation based ?? I'm not even sure how we got to that number tbh.

Next time use google. It's much. Much faster and doesn't consume the time of others to do it for you.

Serious question though, why ask this here? It clutters the forums.

Sorry to all comments a little scattered atm but replying to you all best I can, thank you.

It is not a question of how, but does it make real sense to me? Btw yeah, I do not know how we got that number either, I am not that old and can only assume things based on my own experiences.

Why I ask is because it does not make sense to me. I am asking here because it is a problem for me and are we not all friends?

 

[JDSalinger]

I respectfully disagree.

“You have to take seriously the notion that understanding the universe is your responsibility, because the only understanding of the universe that will be useful to you is your own understanding.”
― Terence McKenna

I think the notion that "I don't understand it, but I'm glad somebody else does" is a means of dodging the responsibility of personal growth and education.

I would recommend taking the evidence generated by the experts in the field, and testing every aspect of it, it's your job to test and confirm the accepted narrative to ensure that it is consistent with observation.

If this person does not understand how gravity holds in the atmosphere, than they should pour over the accepted facts, and put them to the test.

(Though from context I understand exactly what you meant, you can't deny something just because the concepts are over your head )

-eg

Thank you, I am not quite sure how to respond to this other than, I cannot test gravity, yes I see how I fall but is that gravity any more than my mass in relation to other mass eg lighter objects float heavier sink.


Much love to you all btw

 

[LysergicBliss]

Thank you, I am not quite sure how to respond to this other than, I cannot test gravity, yes I see how I fall but is that gravity any more than my mass in relation to other mass eg lighter objects float heavier sink.

Much love to you all btw

If you can't test something directly, try thinking of analogous situations. For example, gravity is what keeps the oceans from floating away, yet some objects will rise in water and some will sink in water. Whether an object floats away or sinks depends on both the gravitational force and the "buoyant force" on the object.
Buoyancy - Wikipedia.

The boyant force on an object is in the opposite direction to gravity, and is equal to the weight of the fluid displaced by the object. In other words, if the weight of water an object displaces is greater than the weight of the object itself, the buoyant force wins and it will float in water. If the object is heavier than the water it displaces, gravity wins and it sinks.

Now think of the fluid as being the air around you instead of being water. Since air is relatively light, most objects will sink or fall (like you and me). Still some ojects (like helium balloons) will rise in air.

As for the atmosphere itself being "suspended", it is because gravity is attracting the gas molecules to the earth's surface, but since two gas molecules can't occupy the same space, they start to stack on top of one another as more and more gas molecules are pulled towards the surface. Along with kinetic properties of gasses, the weight of this stack of gas molecules is what causes atmospheric pressure (i.e. why we are not in a vacuum). As you go higher up, there is less molecules stacked on top and pressure deceases with height (i.e., the density of gas decreases). It technically does not ever drop completely to zero, and there is not a sharp cuttoff between the atmosphere and the vacuum of space. You will never reach a point where the vacuum of space sucks you away, the only way to escape earth's gravity is if you travel upwards with a high enough speed to escape earth's gravitational pull.
Escape velocity - Wikipedia

I hope that helps make sense of things in terms of things you can better relate to.

 

[TGO]

I hold the atmosphere in with my mind. It is just a matter of focused and precise concentration. All day, every day.

There, problem solved!

:twisted:

 

[Intezam]

If our earth's core wasn't loike a living organism, with rotating lava and molten metals, rotating in a manner similar to an organism, if that would stop, harden, cool down or 'expire'.....then the geo-magnetic field it extends around our planet could cease to exist.

Then these our gases could be dispersed/attacked by the cosmic weather (cosmic/solar storms, raditions, other...) and since some of these gases form a protective layer too, life as we know it.....would become very, very difficult.

In the end our planet would look loike Mars....or similar. So, even tho Mars is subject to gravity and has reasonable gravity, the weakness of it's core's circulation and it's coolness causes a situation where Mars is unable to hold on to an atmosphere similar to Earths...etc

So it's not just gravity, but also magnetism and solar heat, (and protection thereof), orbit, axis...so many factors need to be 100% right for this to work. And it's a marvel of Allah....

[YOUTUBE]

Spoiler

(Click on text to play songs)
It's the buzz when I'm full
Of your sweet magnetic pull
It's the tug that I crave
It's how opposites behave
Is electricity all there is to you and me?
In the field, in the field
Where the static is revealed
If the north isn't true
Will I lose my way to you?
Is electricity all there is to you and me?
What's gonna happen when the magnetism fades?
Will we burn up one bright day?
Will the aurora borealis give us one last show?
You can't leave love to science when you go.
In the deep molten heart
Where these strange attractions start
If we are passionate
Will this rock remember it?
Is electricity all there is to you and me?
What's gonna happen when the magnetism fades?
Will we burn up one bright day?
Will the aurora borealis give us one last show?
You can't leave love to science when you go.
What's gonna happen when the magnetism fades?
Will we burn up one bright day?
Will the aurora borealis give us one last show?
YeahYeahYeahYeahYeahYeahYeahYeahYeahYeahYeahYeah Y
You can't leave love to science when you go. ...
It's the buzz when I'm full
Of your sweet magnetic pull

 

[upwaysidedown]

Thank you, I am not quite sure how to respond to this other than, I cannot test gravity, yes I see how I fall but is that gravity any more than my mass in relation to other mass eg lighter objects float heavier sink.


Much love to you all btw

Well as LysergicBliss pointed out, it is gravity that causes floating or sinking. Without gravity it would all just move around based on momentum/friction etc.

But the concepts are definitely not easy to resolve with common sense that we gain from every day life. To really grock a lot of physics you really need to be hands on with experiments and the theory. A lot of places help you do that, and I bet there are some good series and probably great stuff on youtube. But TBH unless you are planning on designing aircraft or ships a full understanding is not that necessary, just knowing what will sink or float is enough.

You sound though like you are disturbed by it, but believe me you have not just discovered a hole in science with the Atmosphere. Try looking at consciousness and the subjective, its an area science cannot yet tread.

And really you could just decide that for you its all irrelevant. But it is good to understand a lot of science, it really helps spot when something IS bullshit - and also for you to not go down a crackpot route if you come up with ideas that make predictions on the physical world.

You could also just determine that all the physical is just a subjective illusion, but why ignore what seem to be consistencies in that illusion.

BTW I applaud your skeptical approach to the answers everyone gives. Its a key requirement for being a good scientist. The other key elements include a structured approach to finding the answers and lots of repeated results and data analysis.