What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

[Valmar]

Great article:

What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

What if jobs are not the solution but the problem? | Aeon Essays

Economists believe in full employment. Americans think that work builds character. But what if jobs aren’t working anymore?

aeon.co

Because, fuck industrialism, and its demon child, wage slavery!

 

[AwesomeUsername]

Doing something productive to society is not bad, doing anything and not even having enough to lead a decent life is pointless.

I blame the system for not caring about people.

If you look closely a lot of the stuff people do isn't even worth doing. Granted most of the people are sheep, and continue to invest that little money in supporting that system to escape their own misery. Who can blame them?

There definitely is a better way than this, I hope someday people get more aware of the real issues around like this. Given that psychedelics are becoming more popular, I really expected someone to realize stuff like that but instead you see some new age hippies that just keep repeating "Time doesn't exist." and "Live in the moment.".

Fuck that shit, time to wake up people, and this time for real.

 

[brilliantlydim]

I agree with a lot of what he says in that article.

The competitive, economic system that he we have may have worked well up until this point, but I think it has outlived its usefulness. Its time for humanity to move past this and on to the next step. The market now hinders advancement because technology advances faster than one can extract invested value out of it. Its not about creating the best product, but creating one that can be maximized for value. Sometimes that means keeping obsolete technology in the market place longer than necessary, or not releasing advanced technology at all. Also business models are unethical and unsustainable, looking to achieve continuous growth. This is leading to the destruction of our environment as well as planned obsolesce.

Imagine if we got rid of money, and allocated all resources previously used on war, finance/the monetary system, and competition with each other to the advancement of technology, proliferation of information and knowledge. Focusing on energy, food production, AI and robots, we would have a society in no time that had clean free energy and labour. All menial jobs and even many intricate ones shortly after, would be able to be performed by robots and computers. People would be free to do what ever their passion is. People would be able to do what they were meant to, explore and create.

Is it possible? If would take a major shift in the paradigm, but I think its the only next step possible if we wish to keep this party going.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

A basic income (also called unconditional basic income, Citizen's Income, basic income guarantee, universal basic income or universal demogrant[2]) is a form of social security[3] in which all citizens or residents of a country regularly receive an unconditional sum of money, either from a government or some other public institution, in addition to any income received from elsewhere.

Universal basic income - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Universal basic income around the world - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

[YOUTUBE]

 

[dragonrider]

I don't think capitalism or industrialism are realy the problem. Or not the core, the essence, of what's wrong with today's society.

There's no capitalist or industrialist manifest anywhere that says:"fuck the planet". On itself there's nothing wrong with wanting to make money. The problem is that many people today believe that money is the only thing that matters. They believe that morality doesn't exist, that 'right' and 'wrong' are empty terms that refer to nothing. People believe that ethics is bullshit, and that they don't have any personaly responsibility for anything.

No system, no society, can ever function properly without ethics.

And also...we no longer have a say in everything. The west is now very much dependant on trade with China and other dictatorial regimes. China and other dictatorial regimes have an enormous economic power.

We have chosen to make ourselves dependant on china a few decades ago. Anybody could have known that this wasn't such a very good idea. We've had a few decades to change our minds, but we didn't. We all choose to believe that fukuyama was right and that capitalism in the end causes all of us to be nice people. Now we have to accept the fact that china has become a neo-colonial superpower.

We'll either have to wait for a cultural revolution in china now,if we realy want change, or be ready to settle for a lot less wealth than we have now.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

There's no capitalist or industrialist manifest anywhere that says:"fuck the planet". On itself there's nothing wrong with wanting to make money. The problem is that many people today believe that money is the only thing that matters. They believe that morality doesn't exist, that 'right' and 'wrong' are empty terms that refer to nothing. People believe that ethics is bullshit, and that they don't have any personaly responsibility for anything.

I agree.

And also...we no longer have a say in everything. The west is now very much dependant on trade with China and other dictatorial regimes. China and other dictatorial regimes have an enormous economic power.

The top ten largest economies by GDP:

Spoiler

We have chosen to make ourselves dependant on china a few decades ago. Anybody could have known that this wasn't such a very good idea. We've had a few decades to change our minds, but we didn't. We all choose to believe that fukuyama was right and that capitalism in the end causes all of us to be nice people. Now we have to accept the fact that china has become a neo-colonial superpower.

China actually wants to switch from an industrial economy to a service economy (2nd to 3rd economic sector). Too much pollution and Chinese ppl want to live the lush Western lifestyle as well. Factories will probably move to low-wage countries and the farming sector to Africa. Automation, robotics and AI will eventually eliminate the need for human work.

Chinese leadership now sees climate and energy policies as a way to seize economic benefits domestically, particularly through job creation, decreased pollution and financial savings from improved efficiency, energy security and health.

China’s Climate Policies: How Have They Performed, and Where Do They Need to Go?

Two new papers from the Open Climate Network find that with further ambitious actions, China can peak its emissions at a lower level than planned, with lower cumulative emissions than initially thought.

www.wri.org

 

[dragonrider]

At the end of the 90's , the chinese GDP was less than 1000 billion US dollars. Less than the belgian and dutch economy combined. Now, it's 2/3 or 3/4 of the US economy. And that is in GDP. In terms of PPP, the chinese economy is bigger already.

Western companies have huge investments in china. Many big companies like GM, apple, volkswagen, Daimler, BMW depend for 20% or more of their total turnaround on china. That means that pension funds, banks, etc, would collapse if a trade-war between the america and china would happen.

So that means that no single western country can make it's own economic policy without any chinese consent (same the other way round). Politicians don't inform the punlic about this ofcourse.

And the EU is effectively dead. It cannot do anything anymore, it's paralysed. There will Always be some memberstate blocking EU-policy. And if EU-policy is not blocked by some national parliament, it will be done so by some referendum.

And to china, each EU memberstate, even Germany, wich is the largest, is an economic ant.

China is technologically catching-up with the west, and is in some ways further, even. We not just depend on them in terms of export. Also in terms of technology, we depend on them. I don't know if apple could produce one single i-phone without chinese technology. I suppose not.

And all of this applies to the now. I'm not talking about the future, where china will likely dwarf the US and the EU combined.

No single western nation is in the position anymore (maybe the US a tiny bit, still), to make big decissions without dealing with china.
People here are affraid of muslims. But muslims don't stand a chance of defeating us. That's not even remotely realistic. China however, will defeat us, if we'll ever be so stupid to start an economic conflict with them. It's a country with 1.35 billion brains.

 

[dragonrider]

At the end of the 90's , the chinese GDP was less than 1000 billion US dollars. Less than the belgian and dutch economy combined. Now, it's 2/3 or 3/4 of the US economy. And that is in GDP. In terms of PPP, the chinese economy is bigger already.

Western companies have huge investments in china. Many big companies like GM, apple, volkswagen, Daimler, BMW depend for 20% or more of their total turnaround on china. That means that pension funds, banks, etc, would collapse if a trade-war between the america and china would happen.

So that means that no single western country can make it's own economic policy without any chinese consent (same the other way round). Politicians don't inform the punlic about this ofcourse.

And the EU is effectively dead. It cannot do anything anymore, it's paralysed. There will Always be some memberstate blocking EU-policy. And if EU-policy is not blocked by some national parliament, it will be done so by some referendum.

And to china, each EU memberstate, even Germany, wich is the largest, is an economic ant.

China is technologically catching-up with the west, and is in some ways further, even. We not just depend on them in terms of export. Also in terms of technology, we depend on them. I don't know if apple could produce one single i-phone without chinese technology. I suppose not.

And all of this applies to the now. I'm not talking about the future, where china will likely dwarf the US and the EU combined.

No single western nation is in the position anymore (maybe the US a tiny bit, still), to make big decissions without dealing with china.
People here are affraid of muslims. But muslims don't stand a chance of defeating us. That's not even remotely realistic. China however, will defeat us, if we'll ever be so stupid to start an economic conflict with them. It's a country with 1.35 billion brains.

So what i mean is that you couldn't just unilaterally decide to cancel some trade deal with china. Not if you don't want china to retaliate, that is.
What if they decide to nationalise some big US investment? That could easily mean that the government should come along to try to save GM again. So in other words, you'd have to negotiate a new deal with them, and they have some leverage.

The average western citizen isn't ready for this new perspective yet. And it will take some time for people to accept it. We have become so accustomed to being at the top of the food chain that we don't even think about it anymore.
You could see in the US election as well as the brexit-referendum campaign that many people are still not willing to accept this fact. Most westerners just get angry when you confront them with the fact that they are no longer in charge of their own economy. But that doesn't make it any less true.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

The real problem is: there aren't any good apps for learning Chinese. There's a guy claiming you can learn Japanese in 6 months if you learn 24/7. But (good) Japanese learning resources are abundant, Chinese however not. Also I haven't met a hot Chinese chick IRL yet - internet research tells me they exist . But if I can meet those two criteria, there's not reason I can learn Mandarin fluency in no time. Don't sell yourself short, young Asian people regard English as "cool", you already have a tradable asset.

What is the most effective way to learn Chinese characters?

Answer (1 of 111): 1. Learn to speak the language first "If you learn enough Chinese characters, you can speak the language. They don't have grammar." This statement is a popular myth regarding the Chinese language, often propagated by those who attempted and gave up on Chinese too soon. No, n...

www.quora.com

The average western citizen isn't ready for this new perspective yet.

You either adapt or you drown. Why should Chinese people be the wage slaves for Western people and not vice versa? China has the same right to bomb "democrazy" and Chinese values into the world as the NATO. The difference is, they haven't done this (yet). Also with increasing wealth and international interconnectivity, the people don't want to be patronized anymore:

[YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]

So that means that no single western country can make it's own economic policy without any chinese consent (same the other way round). Politicians don't inform the punlic about this ofcourse.

Seems fair to me. Multi polar world > US centric world.

Western companies have huge investments in china. Many big companies like GM, apple, volkswagen, Daimler, BMW depend for 20% or more of their total turnaround on china. That means that pension funds, banks, etc, would collapse if a trade-war between the america and china would happen.

Won't happen. Money rules the world, not Trump or the Communist party.

 

[Koornut]

I'm quite fond of Chinese culture, having worked for a Chinese multinational for a while now the people I've come into contact with are straightforward.
I could get upset about what happens in Tibet but then I look in my own backyard and see violations of human rights left right and centre.
I like the idea of a patent-less future.
Maybe it won't be so bad.
The food is cheap to make.

 

[dragonrider]

"Won't happen. Money rules the world, not Trump or the communist party"

My point exactly.

And it's not going to change, unless some huge solar storm would accidentally knock out all of our electronics.

I mean, you can talk about living off the grid and all. But if you yourself aren't even willing to actually DO it, how can you expect all of humanity to, in a sudden flash of insight, collectively make that change in the blink of an eye?

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

I'm quite fond of Chinese culture, having worked for a Chinese multinational for a while now the people I've come into contact with are straightforward.
I could get upset about what happens in Tibet but then I look in my own backyard and see violations of human rights left right and centre.
I like the idea of a patent-less future.
Maybe it won't be so bad.
The food is cheap to make.

That's an odd quote to say the least:

"I could get mad about a gross human rights violation, but then I realized there were some more happening over here, so I just said 'meh.'"

Why not get mad about all of them?

Blessings
~ND

 

[dragonrider]

I'm quite fond of Chinese culture, having worked for a Chinese multinational for a while now the people I've come into contact with are straightforward.
I could get upset about what happens in Tibet but then I look in my own backyard and see violations of human rights left right and centre.
I like the idea of a patent-less future.
Maybe it won't be so bad.
The food is cheap to make.

That's an odd quote to say the least:

"I could get mad about a gross human rights violation, but then I realized there were some more happening over here, so I just said 'meh.'"

Why not get mad about all of them?

Blessings
~ND

Welcome to the age of moral relativism. Is torturing people bad? It all depends on perspective these days...meaning that it's only bad when they're torturing YOU.

But not to others ofcourse, as they're not you.

 

[Koornut]

@NateD
Watching black friday sales compilations leads me towards having an apathetic morning. It's upsetting to see so many poor people eating each other instead of the system that spits out poor people at an alarming rate.
It's ok to be "meh" every now and then, sometimes it's all we've got. Your observation of oddness is well founded. But getting mad about it - is alienating yourself from a significant number of people who don't associate madness with passion. The people you see who get quite uncomfortable when anything outside of their blankie of comfort is presented before them.
Figuring out how to 'human' correctly is difficult.

 

[dragonrider]

@NateD
Watching black friday sales compilations leads me towards having an apathetic morning. It's upsetting to see so many poor people eating each other instead of the system that spits out poor people at an alarming rate.
It's ok to be "meh" every now and then, sometimes it's all we've got. Your observation of oddness is well founded. But getting mad about it - is alienating yourself from a significant number of people who don't associate madness with passion. The people you see who get quite uncomfortable when anything outside of their blankie of comfort is presented before them.
Figuring out how to 'human' correctly is difficult.

True. And you are right that chinese culture is interesting.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

The topic somehow derailed. The topic was fuck work. Yeah fuck work. But then you need to eat.
And I don't understand why living off the grid suddenly elevates the burden. I deem it an even harder burden: illnesses, war between tribes, shitty food supply, hard agricultural work. We've been there, I don't want to go back.

So what is meaningful work? Building robots? Studying economics? Improving your inner life?

Certainly this crisis makes us ask: what comes after work? What would you do without your job as the external discipline that organises your waking life – as the social imperative that gets you up and on your way to the factory, the office, the store, the warehouse, the restaurant, wherever you work and, no matter how much you hate it, keeps you coming back? What would you do if you didn’t have to work to receive an income?

The question is silly: of course help the disadvantaged. But for the golden automation age we still have to work. The robots don't build themselves. And why should the engineer do the work for the slacker?

 

[dragonrider]

The topic somehow derailed. The topic was fuck work. Yeah fuck work. But then you need to eat.
And I don't understand why living off the grid suddenly elevates the burden. I deem it an even harder burden: illnesses, war between tribes, shitty food supply, hard agricultural work. We've been there, I don't want to go back.

So what is meaningful work? Building robots? Studying economics? Improving your inner life?

Certainly this crisis makes us ask: what comes after work? What would you do without your job as the external discipline that organises your waking life – as the social imperative that gets you up and on your way to the factory, the office, the store, the warehouse, the restaurant, wherever you work and, no matter how much you hate it, keeps you coming back? What would you do if you didn’t have to work to receive an income?

The question is silly: of course help the disadvantaged. But for the golden automation age we still have to work. The robots don't build themselves. And why should the engineer do the work for the slacker?

I agree with you. That's actually what i meant when i said that it's a lot easier to talk about living off the grid than just doing it for real.

And if the people who idealise living off the grid aren't even willing to actually do it themselves, then how can you say that the rest of the people are stupid, blind or ignorant for not doing it?

Having said that though, there's probably no worse place to live than in the worlds deprived urban area's.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

I have nothing to add except for this: